Europe and History

[quote=“belgian pie”][quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“BroonAle”]
Or kill women coming out of abortion clinics in the name of ‘God’. [/quote]

Yep. That happens [i]all[/i] the time. :laughing: Women wanting abortions are fleeing the US out of sheer terror.

Personally, I’m all for European women getting abortions. Maybe we should send over some doctors to help out. I’m sure Abdul and Rashid in Londonstan will slash a goat’s throat in celebration. :laughing:[/quote]

You better do that, because many of them are already killed in the name of God … well … your God, not mine … Comrad Che …[/quote]

You’ll have to do [i]muuuuuuuuuuuuuuch[/i] better! :laughing: Another myth oh [i]so[/i] popular in Europe. Three doctors were killed back in the 1990s, along with a security guard, two receptionists and an escort. The last was in 1998. That’s it. No women have been murdered outside an abortion clinic.

Don’t you just hate facts?

hatemonitor.csusb.edu/Anti_Abort … hrono.html


But back to the the main point of the thread…one that you guys seem to want to avoid. The Jews are fleeing Europe again while the Fascists and the Leftists join hands…kinda like they did August 23, 1939. Why? Comments? Speculations?

I take it you are refering to the Nazi-Soviet Pact, as opposed to certain noxious rumblings deep in the bowels of Bavaria, which may have been due to an overindulgence in tainted red meat…
Yet, isn’t it true?: that by 1939 any Jewish emmigration from Nazi Germany was exceedingly difficult. It should also be recognized that barriers to Jewish immigration to Western Countries outside of Europe were also quite prevelant. Granted, it was not anything close to genocide.
It would seem that the History Of The Jews is a world wide affair, and that Euro complicity in pogroms, etc. knows not ideological or political bounds. The history of the Jews in Eastern Europe is a prime example.

[quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“belgian pie”]
You better do that, because many of them are already killed in the name of God … well … your God, not mine … Comrad Che …[/quote]

Why don’t you tell us about Belgium’s hero SS-Standartenführer Leon Degrelle of the 5th SS Volunteer Sturmbrigade Wallonien? He’s alot like Monsieur Le Pen…no wonder the Jews are fleeing.

[quote][b]The Waffen SS were ideological and military shock troops of Europe. The Germans, numbering 400,000, were actually in the minority.

The one million-strong Waffen SS represented the first truly European army to ever exist.[/b]

National Socialist racialism was not against the other races, it was for its own race. It aimed at defending and improving its race, and wished that all other races did the same for themselves.

That was demonstrated when the Waffen SS enlarged its ranks to include 60,000 Islamic SS. The Waffen SS respected their way of fife, their customs, and their religious beliefs. Each Islamic SS battalion had an imam, each company had a mullah. It was our common wish that their qualities found their highest expression. This was our racialism. I was present when each of my Islamic comrades received a personal gift from Hitler during the new year. It was a pendant with a small Koran. Hitler was honoring them with this small symbolic gift. He was honoring them with what was the most important aspect of their lives and their history. National Socialist racialism was loyal to the German race and totally respected all other races.

At this point, one hears: “What about the anti-Jewish racism?” One can answer: “What about Jewish anti-Gentilism?” - Leon Degrelle[/quote]

ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p441_Degrelle.html

[/quote]

Hitler loved the Walloon collaborationist Leon Degrelle.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Vol … _Wallonien

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Degrelle
geocities.com/narwa44/

Yes, but then to compare Europe with the United States is simply ridiculous. The United states is a continent which behaves much the same as a single country with pretty much the same culture across the board.
Europe is a collection of smaller countries which have never co-existed peacefully and are never likely to do so.
Like the United States, each individual country in Europe is a separate, individual country with languages, different customs and sometimes different religious beliefs all defined by boarders.
In my view, it is not wise to address Europe as a whole entity comparable to the United states because it isn’t, never will be and never was.
And this rather leaves this topic defunct unless you are willing to address individual countries within the scope of this thread.

[quote=“Jaboney”]
Ahead of it’s time? No. Ahead of Europe’s thinking, yes. Our societies have had to think, feel, and fumble their ways through these issues already. Learn the lessons and avoid the errors.[/quote]

Can you elaborate a little more? What lessons and errors are you talking about specifically? I mean given that US history of immigration is say 500 years (except for American Indians), but Europe’s stretches back beyond the dawn of civilization.

[quote=“Dangermouse”]Yes, but then to compare Europe with the United States is simply ridiculous. The United states is a continent which behaves much the same as a single country with pretty much the same culture across the board.[/quote]To do so simply would be ridiculous. But North America is more than just the US (I’m excluding Mexico for obvious reasons). Canada can hardly be assumed to have the same culture or language across the board. It’s also a country of immigrants, and the North American dynamic is significantly different, but not so much so to rule out fruitful comparisons. Canadian (multiculturalism) and American (melting pot) immigrant integration methods differ significantly, but both significantly outperform European countries when it comes to integration. Much will boil down to culture, which means a tougher bit of work ahead for Europe, but getting the job done is possible.

[quote=“Dangermouse”]Europe is a collection of smaller countries which have never co-existed peacefully and are never likely to do so.
Like the United States, each individual country in Europe is a separate, individual country with languages, different customs and sometimes different religious beliefs all defined by boarders.[/quote]Yes. Which explains the inward turn in search of ‘European family’ values and norms.

[quote=“Dangermouse”]
In my view, it is not wise to address Europe as a whole entity comparable to the United states because it isn’t, never will be and never was.
And this rather leaves this topic defunct unless you are willing to address individual countries within the scope of this thread.[/quote]Great. Consider countries leaning more to towards multiculturalism and compare them to Canada, and countries leaning more to towards a melting pot model and compare them to the US. (I’ve suggested this approach elsewhere.) I’m not pretending that solutions will be easy to find. The cultures are significantly different, and the mere expense and difficulty of making it to North America introduces a selection bias that works in our favour, but there are a couple of informative models available: throwing up your hands, or walls, is neither necessary nor advisable.

:slight_smile:

Tycoon:
sure, Europe’s got a long history of migrations, but save for refugee migrations, the past couple hundred years have been a story of massive population outflows. On such time scales even institutional memories fade.

But for specifics I’ll have to get back to you… still at work here.

[quote=“Jaboney”]
sure, Europe’s got a long history of migrations, but save for refugee migrations, the past couple hundred years have been a story of massive population outflows. On such time scales even institutional memories fade.

But for specifics I’ll have to get back to you… still at work here.[/quote]

So I take that as a yes, you agree with me on this one :smiley:

[quote=“Tyc00n”][quote=“Jaboney”]
sure, Europe’s got a long history of migrations, but save for refugee migrations, the past couple hundred years have been a story of massive population outflows. On such time scales even institutional memories fade.

But for specifics I’ll have to get back to you… still at work here.[/quote]

So I take that as a yes, you agree with me on this one :smiley:[/quote]Uh… agree that Europe’s got a long history of immigration? Yes. But the lessons were learned so long ago that they’re either not all that relevant today, or the lessons have been largely forgotten.

Unfortunately, even within long-established states, problematic relations between nationalities/people are common within Europe. :s

Got a bit of time to get back to lessons and errors.

Canada’s had a few major waves of immigration following British and French settlement: Mostly British Loyalists and economic refugees, central and eastern Europeans in a huge wave between 1910s - 1950s --which kicked off multiculturalism (as opposed to bi-culturalism)–and largely non-European immigration since the 1970s.

There were earlier influxes of non-Europeans, particularly of Chinese labourers–intended to build the railroad to keep out the Yanks, then get out–Japanese fisherman and lumbermen on the west coast, and former slaves on the east coast, but not in large numbers, and even that was enough to trigger strongly negative, nativist reactions against unwelcome immigrants–described by one gov’t minister at the time as “nearly hysterical”. Over a long number of decades, there was a Head Tax on Chinese immigrants, a quota of 400/year on Japanese, and an outright illegal ban on Indian migrants (including a boatload of desperately needed professionals, left cooling their heels in port and not allowed to disembark). Later wartime fears of immigrant loyalties resulted in bans on publications in certain languages, the displacement and concentration of citizens of German and Japanese origin, a boatload of Jewish refugees turned away (some of whom later end up in the worst possible places).

So Canadian society has a history of indulging fear-fueled hysteria and making enormous mistakes: despite being an immigrant society, the baseline for openness to particular immigrants may not have been all that different from how many Europeans now feel about some Muslim immigrants.

Shoot. No time for details. Must run. A policy of multiculturalism was brought in in 1971, about the same time that visible minorities immigration kicked off. Community-based programs to facilitate integration and provide support whatever cultural practices immigrants wished to retain were introduced, and there were school-based programs to encourage all the kids to see one another as Canadians first and whatever else second. (As opposed to Canadian first and only.)

Contrary to stereotype, when the conservatives formed the gov’t in the 1980s, they actually expanded the immigration program. The goal was to allow a number equal to 1% of the total population to immigrate each year–somewhere around a quarter million/ year–but there weren’t the resources in place to implement that. There’s still an active anti-immigrant constituency, but it’s a minority. The number opposed to multiculturalism is far greater, but still a minority. It may be significant that in the last 40 years no political party has seen fit to make anti-immigration a part of its platform (though some old school Reform members leaned that way).

Anyways… really running out the door, no details… from near hysteria and fears of the yellow peril, we’ve moved on to having reportedly the world’s most multicultural city, Toronto, and most livable city, Vancouver (now 40-odd% Asian), and the only people who ever complain are Asians looking to learn English and thinking that’ll be difficult in Vancouver :loco: Tensions sometimes flare, but usually due to young guys looking for trouble, and on a very minor scale. Something’s been done very well.


Edit: just for a bit of colour, a taster of Canadian identity & integration politics from maybe the CBC’s goofiest essayist.

[quote=“Jaboney”]
Contrary to stereotype, when the conservatives formed the gov’t in the 1980s, they actually expanded the immigration program. The goal was to allow a number equal to 1% of the total population to immigrate each year–somewhere around a quarter million/ year–but there weren’t the resources in place to implement that. [/quote]

They wanted to increase their tax base by bringing in the wealthy Hong Kong Chinese who were panicking at the thought of the PRC taking over. Somebody has to pay for that wonderful national health care system. :laughing:

[quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“Jaboney”]
Contrary to stereotype, when the conservatives formed the gov’t in the 1980s, they actually expanded the immigration program. The goal was to allow a number equal to 1% of the total population to immigrate each year–somewhere around a quarter million/ year–but there weren’t the resources in place to implement that. [/quote]

They wanted to increase their tax base by bringing in the wealthy Hong Kong Chinese who were panicking at the thought of the PRC taking over. Somebody has to pay for that wonderful national health care system. :laughing:[/quote]That’s true. :frowning: Hardly the best basis for selecting immigrants.

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“Jaboney”]
Contrary to stereotype, when the conservatives formed the gov’t in the 1980s, they actually expanded the immigration program. The goal was to allow a number equal to 1% of the total population to immigrate each year–somewhere around a quarter million/ year–but there weren’t the resources in place to implement that. [/quote]

They wanted to increase their tax base by bringing in the wealthy Hong Kong Chinese who were panicking at the thought of the PRC taking over. Somebody has to pay for that wonderful national health care system. :laughing:[/quote]That’s true. :frowning: Hardly the best basis for selecting immigrants.[/quote]

Hey, it was the same here in Taipei. Starting around 1986-87 there was a Canadian immigration company on every block. That lasted 4-5 years and then kinda petered out. I had a friend who went to Vancouver to study English in 1990…she came back all pissed off…said she might as well be in Taipei there were so many Chinese. :laughing: She ended up studying in Edmonton.

wouldn’t it just be great if all the countries in the world were just like the USA?

& this has what to do with the supposed thread title: Europe & History?
How’s about calling it: “The World Is Fugged Up, ‘an’itz goa’t naught t’du’wi’me’”
Or better yet: "America: Both North & South: History, In Yer Face! :grandpa: "

That shit will always come back to bite you in the balls.
What comes around, does go around.
It just takes a little longer that all us post WW2 techno junkies are used to.
As in Eons,

“he smiled knowlingly”
"A nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat!

in which way?

Liberal gun laws and ownership so that if you wanna blow someone’s brains out you can?

legalised death penalty?

state sponsered torture?

that’s exactly the kind of place I would want to bring my kids up

=)

[quote=“tinster”]wouldn’t it just be great if all the countries in the world were just like the USA?[/quote][quote=“itakitez”]in which way?Liberal gun laws and ownership so that if you wanna blow someone’s brains out you can?[/quote]And also allow you to defend your family from criminals who would assault, rape and kill your family members. Works both ways.And by the way, those laws…they are built in to the US Constitution. Read it…great document.[quote=“itakitez”]legalised death penalty?[/quote]It works 100% of the time. Those convicted, tried and sentenced do not do it again.[quote=“itakitez”]state sponsered torture?[/quote] What magazine are you reading?[quote=“itakitez”]that’s exactly the kind of place I would want to bring my kids up[/quote]Good for you. You’ll be able to home school them if you don’t care for the NEA indoctrination/propaganda they receive at the local public school… :smiley:

Yep, but its much harder for criminals to assault, rape and kill your family members if they don’t have access to guns in the first place. We’ve already been over this argument before, and I can’t find any first world country with a higher rate of gun related deaths than America…and don’t tell me they were all criminals…

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]

Thats true, nor do those later found to be innocent get to live a free life. Of course the death penalty doesn’t deter the crime in the first place, so it doesn’t actually serve much purpose. Jail for life also ensure that those convicted never do it again.

But hey, with a privatised jail system, its in the systems best interest to make even petty criminals into real criminals. Not much incentive to reform criminals when you get more money for them being sent back.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]

So you don’t actually believe hundreds if not thousands of possibly innocent people (including Australian, David Hicks) were tortured and not given the right to a trial? So those American personnel who have already faced trial and been convicted of torture by your very own legal systems are actually wrong?

That sounds very much against the principles of that document you mention above, the constitution. I think its quite clear to the rest of the world that America has moved towards a police state. Not saying it is…but its certainly closer than it was before 9/11.

TycOOn wrote: [quote]
That sounds very much against the principles of that book you mention above, the constitution. [/quote]

Book? :astonished: :laughing: From memory, it’s a four-page document, hardly a book. I find it funny when non-Americans start telling Americans about the U.S. of A.

[quote=“almas john”]TycOOn wrote: [quote]
That sounds very much against the principles of that book you mention above, the constitution. [/quote]

Book? :astonished: :laughing: From memory, it’s a four-page document, hardly a book. I find it funny when non-Americans start telling Americans about the U.S. of A.[/quote]

Been drinkin again Almas John? Tsk Tsk, its not even St. Patricks day yet! :smiley:

[quote]Been drinkin again Almas John?[/quote] It’s my only weakness. [quote]Tsk Tsk, its not even St. Patricks day yet! Big Grin[/quote] I don’t drink any more than usual on St. Patrick’s Day - the Irish are a nation of drunken sods.