Europe Needs to Look East

You mean that you would prefer to have a system of ethics, justice and law similar to those prevalent in say the Latin countries or the Slavic countries or even the Greeks? Really? What is the EU and what will its “culture” be? French? Italian? Polish? Swedish? Spanish? Belgian? Who will determine this? Laws can be written but how they are interpreted and enforced often has very strong cultural influences. Would you like the laws governing your country to be “influenced” a la Italy? Would you like all policy determined by an elite group of arrogant technocrats like France? What?

How is German security underpinned? From Europe? France? Russia?

What are the principles that your present government is based on? and where did they come from? Looking back at German history, which periods would you prefer to emulate? Has not 1945 to 2004 been the most peaceful period and stable in recent German history? Are you a threat or threatened by any of your neighbors?

I would say that Germany is becoming stronger and as such is making the same mistakes that Wilhelm II made when he canned von Bismark to take the reins himself. In fact, the same pompous vacuous grandiosity seems to have re-engineered itself in the vapid posturings of Fischer and Schroeder. I mean when you have a chancellor who likes to spend time “tanning” rather than working on policy, what does this say exactly?

Please read more about the previous and present security policies of your nation.

Try going to deutsche-aussenpolitik.de/ or doing a google search for anything written by Ronald Asmus over at the Marshall Foundation. You could also try anything by the Aspen Institute. Check out where your country has based its security and what its strategic interests are and then explain to me why you are not an Atlanticist.

Apologies in advance, but I would say that most Germans who are not Atlanticists actually know very little about their countries strategic and security interests and policies and are often uninformed, trending to left and generally young and “idealistic” about the environment and “international law” and such. This is not the Germany of a sensible man like Kohl who despite all his personal faults led Germany admirably through a very crucial period. What pray tell will Schroeder and Fischer be remembered for in 50 years time? How will they compare with Adenauer or Kohl? Even Schmidt/Brandt and their “Ostpolitik” have failed somewhat to stand the test of time. Given the total collapse of communism, their “accommodation” seems less worthy or far-looking now and more akin to appeasement wouldn’t you say? especially given the fall of the Berlin Wall and the reunification of Germany?

Anyway just a few thoughts but I really do hope that you will come around to the Atlanticist position. We, both Americans and Germans, who support Atlanticism have been a bit too over confident and have assumed for too long that the sensibility of our positions should be readily apparent. In the process, we have allowed a whole generation or two of Germans to grow up on neoMarxist claptrap “learned” at their Unis. Yet, how many political science majors or how many political science classes in Germany actually discuss Reagan, Thatcher, Atlanticism? How many teach Marx? Liberation theology? Noam Chomsky? Third World Marxist leaders like that peasant from Peru, or is it Guatemala, Roberta something Machueieicdhe whatever or Castro?

We have both Americans and Germans graduating with radical beliefs about the environment and corporations gleaned from extremist professors in our universities who do not even know the basics of Locke, Mill, Rousseau, Voltaire, etc. This “esotericism” has got to stop. When did universities start shifting from including a few “outside” voices to focusing solely on such voices? A tragedy that will take us a whole generation to recover if we start now.

Here is an article summarizing some of the problems right now with the decline of Atlanticism in Germany…

specials.ft.com/theresponse/FT3KQQX6JSC.html

I prefer a closer system of what the US administration calls the old Europe.

[quote]
What is the EU and what will its “culture” be? French? Italian? Polish? Swedish? Spanish? Belgian? [/quote]
I dont know what the culture will be, probably a mix. I belive the US way of living on the east coast differs from the west coast too.

[quote]
Who will determine this? Laws can be written but how they are interpreted and enforced often has very strong cultural influences. Would you like the laws governing your country to be “influenced” a la Italy? Would you like all policy determined by an elite group of arrogant technocrats like France? What?[/quote]

Do you think it would be better for Germany if a US interrest group tries to determine the policy? Of course you will say yes. But i dont think so.

Hopefully from Europe some time.

I really dont know what is going in in Fischer or Schoeders mind.

[quote]
Are you a threat or threatened by any of your neighbors?[/quote]
I think Germany has no enemies these day, only friends and trade partners.

I’ll bite one more time. Germany has the fourth largest economy in the world, or third if you use dollars rather than ppp for China.

What does Germany contribute to defending stability in the world or protecting sealanes? What does Germany contribute to making Europe and the immediate region a safer, more stable place? What does Germany contribute to fostering democracy and pluralistic societies around the world?

Right now, you have an EU government. How satisfied with its operations are you? How responsive has it been to the citizens of your country?

When do you think Europe will be capable of defending itself? How much will it cost to achieve these aims? What areas of interest outside Europe would such a defensive force or military become involved in. Would a civil war or major unrest in the Ukraine trigger involvement? What about Turkey? Belarus? Kazakhstan? the Caucasus? Iraq? Afghanistan? North Africa? What if terrorists were developing weapons in the Sudan or Somalia similar to what they were doing in Afghanistan. Would Germany be willing along with this European force to take the threat out? I mean you have committed to pre-emptive action in the Luxembourg Treaty of 2003. Who will vote? How many votes will be necessary? Simple Majority? How will this be an improvement over NATO? How long will the process take? What if the vote is deadlocked or stalemated? Will Germany adopt a unilateral position? When the European force is ready, should NATO be disbanded as redundant? Given the costs and inherently similar goals, why not work through NATO instead? Are American and European aims so differently that different organizations are needed? How much will European citizens be willing to contribute to defense? 3% of GDP? 5% and what kind of force to you anticipate having?

Sorry Fred that i took so long to reply.

I assume most of your questions are rhetoric, so i don’t bother to answer them.
Europe is able or will be able to defend itself as soon as there is a common foreign policy. Yes, you are right, that will take a long time.

A improvement of NATO is not necessary. Just by the name it is easy to tell that it is already redundant.

European and American aims are very different, not only in military but more important economical.

I really would love to play more with you but i am going for a short holiday now, visiting a country on the axis of evil.
See you next week.

[quote=“robi666”]
I prefer a stronger European community.
I am sure honest_bob has a diffrent view on this.[/quote]

Nooooo! I bloody painted European flags in my school books 25 years ago! And when everyone called it “European Community” still I corrected people “…Union”. I like the sound of it. It should become a state, a federation, not the loose joke of a confederation it is now. That must be our focus and we need France for it.

Nevertheless keep friendship with US! If they go on having third-world structures like people can dissapear now without arrest warrant and court, this may not work. But I think the Amercian people will correct that.

Hopefully there is soon a big fat strong EU and a back-to-normal USA and both spread western values!

We soon have big ugly China trying to be a super power. And we are both (USA and EU) under some kind of attack from Islam-radicals. Many still close their eyes, but it would not surprise me, if tomorrow one of our German nuclear power plants explodes, because of BinLaden.

In a few years we may be under threat of Iranian nuclear missiles, let alone Israel is threatened also. So that is why we need USA and EU partnership. If we get divided, the Islam-radicals won another round.

And bloody erase that signature. Never heard: “when you are in another country, you are an ambassador of you own country?”. Pah. Drugs and Caroline Reiber. :raspberry:

You don’t know Eduard von Schnitzlers “Politdokumentation”?

And no i have never heard that proverb. Did you like the palindrome i had before better?

[quote=“robi666”]You don’t know Eduard von Schnitzlers “Politdokumentation”?

And no I have never heard that proverb. Did you like the palindrome I had before better?[/quote]

hahaha. Bobhonestly, I did not understand your palindrome and was too lazy to google it up. You seem to have the better humanstic school educational background …

I still hope that Latin will become the official EU language.

Do you agree on that?

[quote=“robi666”]I still hope that Latin will become the official EU language.

Do you agree on that?[/quote]

who will be Emperator of the new Roman Empire?

Wait a minute, did’t we Germans once call ourselves “Holy Roman Empire of German Nation”? Psssst not so loud, or they will find out Caesar Fischer’s secret plan.

How old are you that you use the term we?
Was anybody durning that time speaking latin?

Regardless of what happens, the time for Germany to reform has arrived. Any such reforms would have to open the economy more, reduce taxes and adopt a more realistic and responsible position foreignpolicywise. All of these trends will do more to make Brussels more democratic and less ruled by elite “interests.” It will also put Germany more on par with thinking in Washington and London as opposed to Brussels and Paris, all good things.

[quote]Evidently the Germans want to prove to themselves and to the rest of the world that, as exemplary Europeans, they present a danger to no one. They are attached to the EU for good reasons: after two lost world wars, a continent in rubble and the N

[quote=“robi666”]How old are you that you use the term we?
Was anybody durning that time speaking latin?[/quote]

uaaaaah … it’s getting late. Don’t split hair again, so boring.

Fred’s Welt quote is very interesting. Europe as a replacement for Germans for “fatherland” and kind of an escape from German history. Can be concluded from my posts on Europe also :wink:

The original article was interesting, if quixotic. I mean, Moldova in the E.U.? That would mean giving up any standards at all! And Georgia? Remember their tourism slogan–“One country, three civil wars.” Azerbaijan and Armenia are at war with each other, and are unlikely to ever agree on the crucial territorial question. Similarly, Armenia and Turkey have a permanently closed border. (Would Turkey allow Armenia in the European Union without apologizing for offending the Turkish national dignity, by accusing them of genocide all these years?) Ukraine is populous, poor, and barely holds together as a country.

Is this all really just about the oil? It would make more sense just to invite Iran to join. Or is the idea to create as big a “Europe” as possible, in order to look impressive on a map?

I first heard of the European Economic Community by way of Hal Lindsay’s “Late Great Planet Earth,” which is about how the antichrist will lead a 10-nation economic confederacy based in Rome (think, Treaties of Rome). Lo and behold, the EEC did indeed swell to ten members, thus heralding the reign of the Beast and “mystery Babylon, mother of Harlots.” There’s a cute comic book on all this called “The Last Generation”–it’s at chick.com and look in the middle of the page.

The language issue is actually a very serious question, with a whole lot of money riding on the answer. (Translation ain’t cheap.) Britain and the smaller countries support English, France supports English plus French, Germany would add German to the list, Italy Italian, and Spain would like them to have five official languages including Spanish. I think they should just go with Esperanto!

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]
The language issue is actually a very serious question, with a whole lot of money riding on the answer. (Translation ain’t cheap.) Britain and the smaller countries support English, France supports English plus French, Germany would add German to the list, Italy Italian, and Spain would like them to have five official languages including Spanish. I think they should just go with Esperanto![/quote]

Turkish would make more sense.

Yes Fred.
The time for Germany and the German government to reform arrived about 4 or 5 years ago. But so far the government failed.
I will see and wait…

Well, let’s see if Germany and France want to wait around or go through the United Nations for this one…

[quote]KIEV, Ukraine – Ukrainian opposition leader Vickor Yushchenko has promised more protests against an election he calls fraudulent.

Tens of thousands of Yushchenko supporters camped out on the streets of Kiev on Monday after crying foul in the bitterly contested presidential runoff vote.

With nearly all the ballots counted by Monday evening, the election commission said Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych had a slim lead over liberal challenger Yushchenko.[/quote]

edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ … index.html

Nobody cares about the elections in Ukraine.
What do you expect to happen, Fred?

No one cares about the elections in Ukraine Fred? What the hell? The Ukraine is probably the most important strategic make or break nation in Europe right now. If it swings West and gets locked down in the West, no possibility of any revived Russian empire. If it goes Russian then Russia is back as a force and ready to expand. If it wallows in squalor in the middle, then it is the perfect failing state for terrorists and narcotraffickers and prostitution gangs to roam and intimidate government authorities.

There are now as I predicted massive protests that could lead to some serious civil unrest and what happens if this gets progressively worse a la Yugoslavia. Where do you think these people are going to go? Russia? I don’t think so. Get ready in Germany for a few hundred thousand to million people heading for your borders and good luck. Remember you don’t need the US and its overly militaristic solutions to world problems. You have France and the UN and negotiations. Good luck with them all, you may need it sooner than you think. If I were German, I would be losing a lot of sleep about this at night almost as much sleep as I would be losing as an American worrying about Pakistan tipping the other way.

A lot of people from all kinds of nations had been knocking on the German door. Africans, Eastern-Europeans and more.

We try to solve this problems sometimes by letting a lot in, then by letting in a medium amount like now. And the long term strategy for Eastern Europe is to build up their economy to make them join the EU.

If they choose to meddle around a little longer with half or full dictators it will be just like always, them knocking our door …

How could US help there? I mean, you cannot solve everything with … ehem … invasion.

Yup, Putin now calls himself “von Putin, Duke of Petersburg” and will probably put a crown on his head with a red star one day. I cannot change that, so I just wait and see. If you have grown up with American and Russian nuclear rockets (the American ones being the good ones and the Russian the bad ones) aiming at your ass, you are not so easy to get excited about elections in Bloodystan or Vaselaine or whereever…