Destroy the religion, not the people. Funny how someone brought up Hitler, because that’s what we did with the Nazi ideology. We converted the Germans to peace-loving democracy. We should convert the Muslims to abandon Islam the way that the Germans abandoned Nazism and the Japanese abandoned their warped mentality. I don’t know how to do it, I just know that it should be done. I know that in the name of PC people have to pretend that they don’t agree with what I just said, but privately most of us really do agree that the world would be a much better place if all the Islamofascists converted to something more reasonable. Not necessarily Christianity or Buddhism or atheism, I don’t really care what it is, as long as it’s not what they’re believing now.
Agree with that; just don’t think anywhere near all Muslims are “Islamofascists”, which is an essentially silly word.
About your only hope is that a more moderate form of Islam wil prevail as modernisation happens.
In all Muslim countries, half of the population are treated little better than cattle, with no rights, often abused by their fathers and husbands, who get away with it. Maybe they aren’t all “Islamofascists”, but all Muslims living in those countries are extremists who abuse and deny the basic human rights of half the population. There is no such thing as moderate Islam. Name one Muslim country that is even remotely “moderate”, that is not an extremist, misogynist fascist regime stuck in the 13th century. Maybe Turkey is trying to be a little bit better than the rest, but not very successfully.
You are off-topic anyway.
Quentin -
Turkey is a bad example with its newly elected Gov’t. Quite fundamental Islamocist.
I would however, suggest Jordan as a compromise.
In other words, you can’t offer me an intelligent rebuttal. Go on, pretend that “AmeriKKKa” is the enemy, the U.S.A. is the new Nazi Germany…while ignoring who the REAL fascists and anti-human zealots are. The U.S. stands for democracy and human rights, like it or not. When is the last time that the U.S. attacked a democratic first world nation with a clean human rights record? Yes, that’s right, like never. The U.S. has only attacked tinpot dictators who deserved to be overthrown. Try to spin your way out of those facts. Islamic countries are all tinpot dictatorships that oppress and mutilate their citizens, as in forced genital mutilation for example. You condemn the U.S. for what are in comparison extremely minor abuses of human rights while turning a blind eye to the massive human rights violations that go on daily all over the Muslim world. So the U.S. throws a few hundred suspected criminals in Guatanamo. Every day thousands of woman have their clitorises bloodily ripped off in Africa, and many of them die of infection or bleeding to death from botched surgery. Get your priorities straight. Stop whining about the the U.S. and start owning up to the real evil in this world.
In other words, you can’t offer me an intelligent rebuttal. Go on, pretend that “AmeriKKKa” is the enemy, the U.S.A. is the new Nazi Germany…while ignoring who the REAL fascists and anti-human zealots are. The U.S. stands for democracy and human rights, like it or not. When is the last time that the U.S. attacked a democratic first world nation with a clean human rights record? Yes, that’s right, like never. The U.S. has only attacked tinpot dictators who deserved to be overthrown. Try to spin your way out of those facts. Islamic countries are all tinpot dictatorships that oppress and mutilate their citizens, as in forced genital mutilation for example. You condemn the U.S. for what are in comparison extremely minor abuses of human rights while turning a blind eye to the massive human rights violations that go on daily all over the Muslim world. So the U.S. throws a few hundred suspected criminals in Guatanamo. Every day thousands of woman have their clitorises bloodily ripped off in Africa, and many of them die of infection or bleeding to death from botched surgery. Get your priorities straight. Stop whining about the the U.S. and start owning up to the real evil in this world.[/quote]
Good morning. I wrote exactly two sentences in this thread:
I am not pretending[quote]that “AmeriKKKa” is the enemy, the U.S.A. is the new Nazi Germany.[/quote] I am not whining about the US either, but if you continue to argue on this level I may start whining. Aaoooooooo!
Fred Smith, I am calling for help, if you have ever achieved anything with your posts, this guy is ruining it.
The topic was: European American relationship
Sorry, no help from me on that score. I was going to say that I agree with Quentin in principle but pehaps found issue with his tone and then I thought well why should I? Isn’t that what I have been harping on all along? Why is it that the left is so so SOOOOOOO silent when it comes to all of these numerous cases of REAL abuse? I know that many women’s organizations have raised the female circumcision issue but what about all the forced marriages, the gang rapes, the honor killings? I do not think that these are brought up enough by lefties in general. So, while I had wished to focus on the improving European American ties, I do not mind this thread being shanghaiied IF it will lead to more sense among lefties in both the US and Europe. I fully realize that despite the newly improved ties that a dangerous element of moral relativists exists within both Europe and America. Some day, leftwing Europeans may be celebrating the day that America changed to become more attuned with their vision of how things should be. IF and when that does happen, the oppressed of the world will not be better off, rather they will be far far FAR worse off. I have posted statistics to show that the death rate from murder, terrorism etc. is far lower in Iraq than Colombia or if you look at urban areas only, many US cities suffer by comparison but then most lefties would not want to look at the real underlying reasons nor would they like to admit that when millions died in China, the USSR, Afghanistan, Iraq under Saddam etc. they have been totally silent. Some “committed” idealists called, demanded, shrieked when we did not intervene in Rwanda, but given the exact same parameters existing in Iraq were of the exact opposite view because oil MIGHT be a factor in polluting their otherwise unadulterated noble goal of helping Humanity.
So you agree with a statement like “destroy Islam”? That is about as cool as anything we hear from Tehran these days.
Certainly not but I do believe the time has come to stop sitting on the fence. Either you support rights for women, gays, children or you do not. Either you treat people as individuals with individual rights or you do not.
Quick question: In Europe, should cultures have rights or individuals? This is the ludicrous situation that the multi culti left finds itself in today. It defends the 10 percent of Muslims who are fanatical expecting the other 90 percent to follow their diktats out of a misguided sense of protecting Muslim sensibilities. But by its very nature, this whole attitude is inherently racist. Is there one set of beliefs that governs ALL Muslims? If so, why the most virulent and violent? To me, it seems more like groveling appeasement based on fear of terrorism rather than well thought out policy. Again, the actions seem to be based on fear. We can criticize Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc and make light of its symbols but God forbid any such action be taken against Islam, not because it is above being lampooned but because everyone knows that there is a very real chance that such freedom of expression would result in a slit throat or a bullet to the head. Why are we tolerating this? Has the Left become so morally weak as to be unable to raise its perpetually outraged voice at the real sources of outrage?
Regardless, I am greatly heartened by the continued cooperation and renewed sense of shared destiny among Americans and Europeans and I wish to end therefore on a positive note. When we work together with a shared purpose, we are strong. I am pleased to see the close relations. In fact, perhaps, in many ways, our spat over Iraq (actually I should not use the term European since most of Europe was with us) but with Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the European Left.
I doubt that. To me it looks rather like some cheapskate prove of pseudo-tolerance. I.e. pick something very alien, don’t bother to look further into it, then defend it. The more alien, the better. Best is something alienating and then defend that.
From that base then, do what has been the original intent all along. Score points in the ad hominem game. “I am so tolerant, so my other ideas must be right too.” Not that the right does not play this game too, but the focus is more on “law & order” than “tolerance”. The points made are equally fake though usually.
I see plain vanity again behind these mechanics. Terrorism does figure into this probably as much as unemployment, economics, education, crime statistics or whatever else a government should keep an eye onto: nothing at all.
Are you suggesting that my concerns regarding intolerance in Muslim societies is based on ignorance? Is there no appreciable difference between the rights afforded individuals in Western socieities and those in Muslim ones? Is this just then simple prejudice masquerading as concern for human rights?
So then the reports on human rights delivered by the UN Human Rights Commission, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International and any scores that they may give specific countries are pointless, worthless and meaningless because there can be no objective standard for human rights?
I see self-abasing moral relativism that simply cannot exert itself to rise to face blatant challengs to its core credos.
Then, all things being equal, we should be able to determine terrorism levels in specific nations based on unemployment, poverty and crime statistics? Want to take that bet?
So government should take no notice of anything at all. Stop taking statistics on clean water, crime, education levels, economic development, human rights, etc. because none of it matters? What the hell are you talking about?
Nope. I suggest to read what my post refers to. Your assesment on what multi-kulti is based on.
Why you assumed I bother what your concerns regarding Muslim society are based upon? Because it is the topic you prefer to write about?
I am convinced they are in essence point- and worthless to the multi-culti fan. I seriously doubt that they figure in when one is all hot for multi-kulit. Lip-service to these findings … sure, of coure. But that’s about it.
Then, all things being equal, we should be able to determine terrorism levels in specific nations based on unemployment, poverty and crime statistics? Want to take that bet?[/quote]
I care not all too much what you do to determine you personal level of terror-fear, likewise whoever you refer to with “we” (assuming of course you don’t use “we” just in an attempt to give your oppinions more weight).
What I am convinced about though is that proponents of multi-culturalism rather seldom bother about statistics, day-to-day governance a whole lot of the time. Terrorism, which you claimed to be driving the multi-kulit sentiment, I doubt does not even register (condemning lip service asides of course again).
I see self-abasing moral relativism that simply cannot exert itself to rise to face blatant challengs to its core credos.[/quote]
Your view. Mine remains this “self-abase” is merely professed to fawn their own vanity. Cheapskate way to feel all “tolerant” about themselves and then be smug about it.
So government should take no notice of anything at all. Stop taking statistics on clean water, crime, education levels, economic development, human rights, etc. because none of it matters? What the hell are you talking about?[/quote]
What possible motivates the multi-culti dogmatism. You claimed it is based on the fear of terrorism. I claim it is based on vanity.
Multi-kulit is way older than fear-mongering about Islamofascist terrorism. But have fun trying to base the former on the latter if you like to.
???
I am not sure what you are talking about.
Let me clarify. I am not supporting multiculturalism. Do you understand that? I am saying multiculturalism often becomes moral relativism… as to the rest of your response, I am left speechless. I have not a clue what you are talking about.
While relations are improving, I do not think that it should stop us from poking fun occasionally? just a bit? once or twice… read on…
I guess Frei macht Arbeit in this case, eh? haha
[quote]Instead of waiting for the next welfare check, Heino Wittstock is picking asparagus. he German construction worker has been unemployed for three years. But this spring, he joins some 280,000 Polish migrant farmhands, plucking the foot-high green and white sentinels from the rich Brandenburg loam.
In an unusual effort to address its 11.9 percent unemployment rate, Berlin is also trying to answer a common refrain in many industrial nations: “Foreigners are taking jobs away from us.”
In Germany, the spring asparagus is harvested by migrant farmworkers. But the labor ministry has a new rule that says 10 percent of seasonal farmworkers should be German.
With only 170 German field hands in the state of Brandenburg so far, the experiment is off to a rocky start. And German farmers are angry, saying native-born pickers are only half as efficient as the Poles.
Unemployed Germans lack both practice and motivation, farmers here say. “Were it not for the Poles, we’d have to close down,” he says.[/quote]