European Foreign Policy Sucks!

Geez!

The first post was a troll and the lack of response show that the Yankas are incapable of articulating their stance on anything beyond their “We are right!” cotton candy.

Who is it that said that the “well trained dog jumps when the master waves his stick,” however, the REALLY well trained dog jumps even when there is no stick? But the average Yank thinks he’s in control, poopi poo hoo!

I have yet to hear a Yank actually articulate their own foreign policy, never mind the EU’s.

Any bitsy bitsy hate campaign works wonders in the end, so keep on thinking!

[quote=“Anonymous”]Geez!

The first post was a troll and the lack of response show that the Yankas are incapable of articulating their stance on anything beyond their “We are right!” cotton candy.

Who is it that said that the “well trained dog jumps when the master waves his stick,” however, the REALLY well trained dog jumps even when there is no stick? But the average Yank thinks he’s in control, poopi poo hoo!

I have yet to hear a Yank actually articulate their own foreign policy, never mind the EU’s.

Any bitsy bitsy hate campaign works wonders in the end, so keep on thinking![/quote]

lol. your response just proves my point. no mention at all of what “eu” foreign policy is. instead, you got the knee jerk “insult the yanks” reaction going. would that make you the dog and this thread the stick? :wink:

did you not understand that your substanceless “criticize america and americans” response was EXACTLY what i was making fun of in the first post? or did the “yank bashing” side of your brain cloud your reading comprehension skills?

[quote=“tigerman”]

I think so.[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that, please.

Yes of course it was an attack. What I doubt is that it should be met by invoking UN Charter 5. This was terrorist act by an extremist group and not an attack by one country on another. I believe that is the “attack” that NATO safeguards. History has shown the UN to be an effective organisation, nevertheless, like its predecessor, some countries use it self servingly and hypocritically rather than abiding by its founding principles. While Article 5 might seem suitable to redress the WTC incident, daily unsactioned bombings of Iraq seem to fly in the face of Article 1.

I’m well aware of that, but then that’s not what I said. What I said was they are not synonymous - one cannot exist without another. Military action is, or should be, the last element of a foreign policy where diplomacy has failed. It should never be the first instrument.

Article 5 states that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. There is no qualification or condition set as to whether the attack is from a traditional nation state, alliance or any other entity.

Please define “effective”.

Some? Try all.

That’s just it. Article 5 actually did nothing… its invocation was merely symbolic. It hardly has redressed the WTC/Pentagon/Pennsylvania attack. Most European nations, excluding several such as the UK and, surprisingly, Italy, have since done very little to assist the US. Rather, they continue to sit on their duffs and call for yet more endless discussion, all the while crying that the US is acting unilaterally. To those Europeans, there can never be enough talk and it is never time to act.

Uh, the Iraqi regime has violated the UN peace agreement for over 11 years now. How can you even imagine that after 11 years of undermined sanctions, that the US is now resorting to force as a first option? Most of Europe has merely been critical of the UN sanctions while attempting to undermine the same. Europe gave former US president Jimmy Carter a Nobel Peace Prize, largely for his diplomatic achievement of getting the North Koreans to abandon their nuclear weapons program… of course, as soon as Jimmy Carter received his prize, the N. Koreans announced that they did indeed have the bomb, and bio-weapons too. In light of that, and of all that is known regarding Iraq’s weapon program, Europe still believes that diplomatic efforts have not yet been exhausted. European policy: talk, even if it is useless; never resort to the use of force.

[quote=“jeepers”][quote=“tigerman”]

I think so.[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that, please.[/quote]

Sure, but I think it is obvious.

After assisting (substantially) in two European world wars, and protecting western Europe for 40+ years from Soviet expansion, Europe, with the notable and appreciated exceptions of the UK and Italy, has done its best to discourage US initiatives designed to protect the US from an enemy that has been attacking US interests and killing US citizens for over a decade.

I wouldn’t characterize Europe’s behavior as supportive of the US, would you?

If the US has not clearly articulated its policy, then what exactly is it that Europe opposes?

Again, Europe has no foreign policy to articulate.

Eastern Europe (occupied by USSR 45 years)
Tibet (occupied by China 50+ years) genocide
Cambodia (genocide)
Rwanda (genocide)
Former Yugoslavia (genocide)

Korean War (“UN Forces” maintain status quo in Korea)

Yep, you’re right. An effective organization. :unamused:

[quote=“tigerman”]
Again, Europe has no foreign policy to articulate.[/quote]

WRONG!

European foreign policy:

“Whoah! We’re going to Ibiza
Whoah! Back to the island
Whoah! We’re going to Ibiza
Whoah! We’re gonna have a party
Whoah! In the Mediterranean Sea”*

“Going to Ibiza” - The Vengaboys
lyricscafe.com/v/vengaboys/003.htm

Al Qaida: “By attempting to strike a U.S. plane in Saudi Arabia and by bombing a Jewish synagogue in Tunisia, destroying two ships in Yemen, attacking the Fialka base in Kuwait, and bombing nightclubs and whorehouses in Indonesia, al Qaeda has shown it has no qualms about attacking inside Arab and Islamic lands.”

The synagogue bombing took place in April and killed 19 people, most of them German tourists.

What was the German response to this? Anyone know? Rascal?

The following is from:

rightwingnews.com/humor/ww2.php

If The World Treated WW2 Like the War On Terrorism. If the world treated WW2 the same way we treat the “War on Terrorism” and the “Conflict in the Middle East” this is what it would of been like…

March 15/16, 1939: Nazis take Czechoslovakia. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge Czechoslovakia to be restrained in their response.)

May 22, 1939: Nazis sign ‘Pact of Steel’ with Italy. (Other nations declare that Italy and Germany signing pact to help each other take over the world “not helpful to the peace process.”)

Aug 23, 1939: Nazis and Soviets sign Pact. (The world heralds signing of treaty as a sign of Hitler’s good intentions. He wouldn’t be signing a peace treaty if he wanted war would he?)

Sept 1, 1939: Nazis invade Poland. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

Sept 3, 1939: Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany. (World condemns these nations for declaring war. This may cause unrest in Europe!)

Oct, 1939: Nazis begin euthanasia on sick and disabled in Germany. (World mildly condemns this but declares that we must understand the actions of Germany in the context of the horribly unfair treaty of Versailles.)

April 9, 1940: Nazis invade Denmark and Norway. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

May 10, 1940: Nazis invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

June 14, 1940: Germans enter Paris. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

July 10, 1940: Battle of Britain begins. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge Britain to be restrained lest they further the “cycle of violence.”)

Aug 23/24: First German air raids on Central London. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge Britain to be restrained lest they further the “cycle of violence.”)

Aug 25/26: First British air raid on Berlin. (World outraged at British attacks! Civilians may have been killed by irresponsible British attacks! World votes 453-4 to condemn British!)

Sept 13, 1940: Italians invade Egypt (Other nations give mild condemnation of Italian attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

Nov 20, 1940: Hungary joins the Axis Powers. (World excited! Hopes Hungary may now have the influence to help move the peace process forward. World publicly says they applaud the peace effort they are sure Hungary will soon begin!)

Nov 23, 1940: Romania joins the Axis Powers. (World excited! Hopes Romania may now have the influence to help move the peace process forward. World publicly says they applaud the peace effort they are sure Romania will soon begin!)

Dec 9/10: British begin a western desert offensive in North Africa against the Italians. (World outraged at British attacks! How will we ever have peace if Britain keeps attacking the other side?)

March 11, 1941: President Roosevelt signs the Lend-Lease Act. (World criticizes Americans for selling weaponry to combatants! Announces they should only give food, blankets, and tents if they’re going to get involved at all.)

May 10/11, 1941: Heavy German bombing of London; British bomb Hamburg. (World is outraged by British attack on Hamburg! Civilians may of been injured! World condemns Britain in strongest terms and demands they stop bombing anywhere civilians might be!)

June 14, 1941: United States freezes German and Italian assets in America. (Americans accused of “hating all Germans and Italians”. 32 lawsuits filed.)

June 22, 1941: Germany attacks Soviet Union as Operation Barbarossa begins. (World upset that treaty broken. They urge president Roosevelt to personally sit down with Stalin and Hitler to negotiate new treaty.)

Sept 29, 1941: Nazis murder 33,771 Jews at Kiev (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi murders but urges rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

Dec 7, 1941: Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor (Other nations give mild condemnation of Japanese attack but urge United States to be restrained in their response.)

Dec 8, 1941: United States and Britain declare war on Japan. (Other nations outraged! Accuse United States of furthering “cycle of violence”. World says that Roosevelt calling Dec 7, 1941 “a date which will live in infamy” is “simplistic” and “not helpful.”)

Jan 20, 1942: SS Leader Heydrich holds the Wannsee Conference to coordinate the “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.” (World declares plan to kill all Jews is “not helpful”. Urges Hitler to declare that exterminating all Jews is wrong in German.)

Aug 17, 1942: First all-American air attack in Europe. (World outraged at American aggression! Suggests putting Roosevelt up for war crimes trial!)

Oct 18, 1942: Hitler orders the execution of all captured British commandos. (World takes occasion to remind “Allies” that German prisoners should get extra bratwurst and beer for “Oktoberfest”.)

Jan 14-24, 1943: Casablanca conference between Churchill and Roosevelt. During the conference, Roosevelt announces the war can end only with an unconditional German surrender (World outraged! Says that Churchill and Roosevelt must be willing to negotiate with Hitler now while they’re being attacked!)

May 13, 1943: German and Italian troops surrender in North Africa. (World demands that relief groups monitor the conditions for German and Italian troops to make sure they’re not being “tortured.”)

July 25/26, 1943: Mussolini arrested and the Italian Fascist government falls; Marshal Pietro Badoglio takes over and negotiates with Allies (World fears change in Italian leadership will cause “more instability in Europe.”)

July 27/28, 1943: Allied air raid causes a firestorm in Hamburg. (World condemns “Allies” raid on Hamburg. Votes 454-2 to order all allied forces to withdraw to their own countries and begin negotiating for peace.)

Nov 18, 1943: Large British air raid on Berlin. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

Jan 6, 1944: Soviet troops advance into Poland.(World condemns Soviet aggression! Demands Soviets stop their “brutal oppression.”)

March 18, 1944: British drop 3000 tons of bombs during an air raid on Hamburg, Germany. (World outraged! Citizens of Hamburg “under siege”! World suggests putting troops inbetween combatants in effort to insure a cease fire.)

June 6, 1944: D-Day landings. (World goes nuts! This outrageous aggression by the Allies must not stand!)

June 13, 1944: First German V-1 rocket attack on Britain. (Other nations give mild condemnation of Nazi attack but urge rest of the world to be restrained in their response.)

Sept 1-4, 1944: Verdun, Dieppe, Artois, Rouen, Abbeville, Antwerp and Brussels liberated by Allies. (World urges Allies to negotiate with Axis for peace! World has moment of silence for the German people who may of been harmed in attacks!)

Dec 17, 1944: Waffen SS murder 81 U.S. POWs at Malmedy. (World chides Allies that they had better not treat their prisoners like that!)

Dec 26, 1944: Patton relieves Bastogne. (World outraged! Patton is a “hawk”. The fact that the Americans put a man like that in charge of their military shows “they’re not serious about peace.”)

Feb 13/14, 1945: Dresden is destroyed by a firestorm after Allied bombing raids. (World calls for all allied leaders to be put up for war crimes trial. Expresses “shock and dismay” at Allies “complete disregard” for civilians!)

March 6, 1945: Last German offensive of the war begins to defend oil fields in Hungary. (World comments “Who could blame them after all those allied attacks? Wouldn’t you do the same thing in their place?”

April 1, 1945: U.S. troops encircle Germans in the Ruhr(World demands US allow German troops a way out rather than attack.)

April 16, 1945: Soviet troops begin their final attack on Berlin; Americans enter Nuremberg. (World demands that Hitler not be overthrown! He is the elected leader of the German people!)

April 30, 1945: Adolf Hitler commits suicide. (World now very upset! Fears someone “worse than Hitler” may now take his place!)

May 7, 1945: Unconditional surrender of all German forces to Allies. (World upset and concerned about fate of German people. Sends relief groups in to make sure Germans not mistreated!)

June 5, 1945: Allies divide up Germany and Berlin and take over the government. (World outraged! Demands that the “occupation of Germany” end immediately)

Aug 6, 1945: First atomic bomb dropped, on Hiroshima, Japan. (World demands Roosevelt be tried for war crimes. Protestors and peaceniks from across the world flock to Japan to act as human shields)

Aug 9, 1945: Second atomic bomb dropped, on Nagasaki, Japan. (World tells US that dropping atomic bombs will only “create more martyrs” and will encourage more Japanese than ever to turn against the Allies!)

Aug 14, 1945: Japanese agree to unconditional surrender. (World sincerely hopes the citizens on the Axis nations can forgive the Allies for their uncalled for aggression, imperialism, and oppression in this war.)

Once more, don’t generalize.

“Europe” didn’t start the WW’s.

Germany isn’t, wasn’t “Europe”.

Germany is Germany.

Now we have the EU, but still, European countries are independent entities.

Nox,

He didn’t generalise. He particularised. So, you got that bit wrong.

European nations’ inability to live together started WW1 / WW2, so you can justifiably say that Europe started WW1 / WW2. So you got that wrong, too.

And your post didn’t say much either.

To sum up, it was part wrong, part tedious.

Whose inability to live together was it that started the Pacific War? The European Allies defended themselves against attack by Germany. The US defended itself against attack by Japan. What’s the difference?

Also convenient to forget the Spanish-American War, isn’t it?

YAWN…! En als je nog lang blijft zagen dan val ik in slaap!

and … Juba is right.

I think there is a clear and obvious difference.

In Europe, the powers that were eventually forced to reckon with Hitler tried appeasement first.

In the Pacific, the US actively sought confrontation with Japan. Take a look at the legislation passed by the US and US policies aimed at Japan that eventually caused Japan to attack the US at Pearl Harbor.

The appeasement approach employed by Europe and confrontational stance adopted by the US were strikingly different.

The UK did, but not those cheese-eating surrender monkeys from France.

(OK, I admit, the free French did establish a resistance, but really… )

Germany did start the war but appeasment also did… or was it “peace in our time” and the desire of no country in Europe to tak action against the Germans… They saw this coming in 1936… but would do nothing against the Germans…
It was Europe… mainly England France and perhaps Russia not doing anything at that time… just keeping their fingers crossed that hitler would not be too greedy and not want anything beyond the Rhine and Annexing a couple of countries…

Why is Saddam developing weapons of mass destruction… for fun… having them alone he can bully the middle east.

Its only when he will have longer range weapons that he will start to worry Europe…

What are Saddams intentions… does anybody know if is he a serious threat … he may have weapons of mass destruction but so has a lot of countries like India and Pakistan… and there have been cases there I should think when someone thought of pushing the button… or does he just want to be a thorn in the side of the US?.. Maybe Europe in the 30s did not understand should have thought more about this too

Actually in 1935/1936 there were characturs (spelling) in the british newspapers of Churchill as a war monger…
And thank God someone in Europe did stand up to them or I would be probably speaking german today… and IHitler would be an old man living in Buckingham palace and Ireland would be his cabbage garden

Tigerman - huge overgeneralisation.

Not all French people eat cheese.

Tigerman - Are you Japanese? Perhaps you should change your name to Torahito 虎人. Tora! Tora! Tora! 虎虎虎