You have to be absolutely the only one on this forum who would not know that this is referring to the governments in question. The very context of the statements is so clear that even Rascal and Broon Ale would understand it.
Now, are you going to jump on the next nonAmerican who starts a thread about Bush or the United States GOVERNMENT with equal venom? I don’t think so so be careful about the limits that you set on this.
But I will be careful to constantly reference the above to your limited ability to understand contexts or definitions, how would that be? er have you had your IQ tested recently? blood sugar? could be something in your water supply. Now, get off my back about this and answer the question or you are OFF TOPIC. hee hee hee How’se about them apples?
Fred, Britain is still trying to help you clear up the mess you left in Iraq. We’ve got troops in Afghanistan, Kosovo etc etc and our army is over stretched as it is. You could fit the UK into North and South Carolina with alot of room to spare. We just don’t have enough personnel.
As for the French and Germans…???
From where I see it, the States is so intent on involving itself in other peoples business that if Greece hadn’t have asked, the States would have probably insisted that it helps/sticks its nose in anyway.
Come on…you’re the supposed “superpower.” Whats the big problem?
[quote=“fred smith”]Oh for Christ’s sake Traveller:
You have to be absolutely the only one on this forum who would not know that this is referring to the governments in question. The very context of the statements is so clear that even Rascal and Broon Ale would understand it.[/quote]
I understood exactly what you meant Fred, but you are getting more worked up over a small correctional issue, which is relevant, than Rascal does over your incessant analogising og germany. Now see the point Freddie.
Freddie, wrong end as usual, or is it an attempt to muddy the waters. Should a poster use the term Americans whilst really referring to the USG then would be quite happy to, if they used Bush or USG whilst really meaning Bush or the USG then there is no error. Come on, Fred, calm down, go and have a glass of wine with your lunch.
Not my limited ability Freddie, more yours, and what bloody question, there is not one in your post. :loco:
Is that when the US asks for help, it gets the back of the hand. Greece er sorry THE GREEK GOVERNMENT (for Traveller, bit simple you know) was one of the most vocal and anti-American of all EU governments in the lead up to the Iraq War. Now, all of these calls for peaceful dialogue and negotiations and efforts to understand Muslim and Arab rage are apparently thrown out the window when its nation is under threat. How does this make sense to you? Does it seem consistent? And during the Olympics while the US is protecting Greece and ALL the other participants there with the blood and sweat of its troops, do you imagine that there will be booing of American athletes and teams? Even though this would be racist since not everyone could possibly be sure that they were not Democrats. Now, if the US were to require troops from Greece to assist us do you think that they would be forthcoming?
Not having troops is NO excuse. This point has been made before. NATO and the US have frequently called upon European GOVERNMENTS (got it Traveller? Why would the US call upon European men on the street?) to spend more to buttress their defenses but this has gone ignored. Now, when the guntoting cowboy is needed, where are the protests in Athens against militarism? the Big Brother? The Facist Bush? See my point?
There is a question in my post and you have highlighted it in your response. Pay more attention to my and YOUR posts and get back to me on that. What is it with you and Rascal anyway? (that’s a question, but you don’t have to answer it?) Is he your boss or something?
Fred, if your question is why did Greece not ask Britain, France, Germany and Italy, then already answered. Ask Greece, i sure as hell do not know the answer, nor do you, you can only surmise.
Maybe they did and were refused, although i doubt it. Maybe they asked the USG first as the US is currently the only world superpower.
But why is the US the only world superpower? Why cannot Europe defend itself? This is not war we are talking about here. We are talking about providing security for an Olympics for Christ’s sake. What is Greece were facing the threat of an invasion? Oh. Whoops, they have and that’s why they are Turkey are both in NATO.
So my point is that for all the squealing about the US military (where’s Mother Theresa now?) when push comes to shove, gosh everyone needs us after all. But can you think of a similar example where when we have really needed someone (say Iraq) where has Greece been? I think that is the interesting point and thus my sermon concludes.
Fred, where is this europe country, or its army, it does not exist in the manner which you project. Christ, it does not even have harmonised constitutions, fiscal policies, foreign policies etc, so how can anyone expect a unified military. Europe as you are suggesting may never exist.
As for the use of US military, then as usual to broad or simple a point. It is not the act of using, but the rational behind the use that would be called into question, though not in this case.
If Greece has asked for help, and the US provides it, then i have no problem with it.
But don’t you and many other Europeans want the United States and its troops out of Europe? I believe that you made that point strongly in other posts. Now, if Greece says it wants them, then that is okay? And if you cannot defend yourselves during an Olympics are you not being rather premature to say that you want all US troops out yesterday. They cannot go home fast enough for you, you said. Now, you say Europe may never be able to come together nor defend itself and you still want US troops out? How is this logical or consistent or even sensible? That was my point in earlier posts. I mean it is one thing for posters like you and Rascal to talk this way but for your governments to actually act like they have alternative security measures in place is INCREDIBLE. It was beyond all understanding. That is why even that idiot Joschka Fischer is backtracking so fast in Germany. Have not heard much from that grandstanding ponce recently have you? And what happened to de Villepin in France? Promoted? Promoted to Interior Minister? Really? Both nations realized that their actions were counterproductive to their security needs. That is what I want you to admit as well. Will you?
[/quote]Bu twhy is the US the only world superpower?[quote]
It’s not, it just makes everyone else believe it is.
Fred, before you start blaming Greece for disagreeing with the States about the illegal occupation of Iraq, perhaps you should do some research on the US stance towards Greece and Turkeys little squabble over Cyprus.
Although, yet again, this is nothing to do with the US, it seems that the US favours Turkey on this one.
Thus, understandably, Greece is going to oppose anything that the US wants or asks for in regards to Iraq, which is already too much of a controversial subject between the powers of Europe.
Perhaps a little research is required before posting random rants at the countries of Continental Europe?
Fred, the two issues are not comparable. One is a request for temporary help for a specific event, the other is regarding the stationing of troops that can be seen as semi permanent, they have been there for 60 years already.
With regard to the backing down of France and Germany, then yes, i do not doubt someo fit is because they do not have credible alternatives or probably be able to financially afford it, Britain on the other hand, does and can, but even then as with the US there is a limit, whether it is manpower or finance, just that the US limit is higher than the UK’s, hardly surprising really though.
As for troops out of europe, then i think we are in agreement generally, certain european nations do need to do more, and the only way is to make them do more by removing the current umbrella, hence why i would want it done sooner than you.
This is not a random rant. America and its military forces are routinely hounded that is until they are needed. I am calling on those europeans who protest the US and its actions at the drop of a hat to think seriously about the security and policy issues involved. Here, in Greece, we have a perfect case in point. If Bush were to visit Athens, he would be mobbed by protesters but nary a protest nary an irate editorial about how the Greek government has asked for US troops to protect it and its visitors during the Olympics. Can I not take this opportunity to rub that inconsistency in? Can I not gloat a bit that the reflexive anti-Americanism on the European left is silenced almost as quickly as it was in South Korea when the US actually started to leave?
Bush as President of the USA is fair target for any anti US protests. He is seen as being responsible for all US policy, whether military, foreign and trade etc.
I will agree though that to often the US military is targeted not for military reasons, but purely because it is the only accessible face of the USG. The Ambassadors etc would be the more correct people to target, but are hardly easily accessible.
Plus there is a difference, the request has come from the government, it is th eordinary people that would be mobbing Bush should he visit.
Is it right, no it is not, but human nature, as fred is currently showing is the need to vent frustration etc over certain issues.
Fred, it is impossible to reconcile both positions, if you take on the role of policeman then some will still want help despite criticizing your actions in other areas.
I imagine you do not agree with everytrhing your police dept does, stands for or policies, but i still expect you would be phoing them when the need arose.
But why are not the Leftists in Greece agitating and protesting against the American military involvement? That is the crux of my argument. If they are not protesting the involvement of the American military on their own soil, how can we really take their stances seriously, er, not that I ever did.
Remember these are the same Greeks that protested heavily about US involvement in Kosovo and Bosnia. Why they did not protest against the British, French and Germans who were equally involved is beyond my capacity to understand, do you? Sorry, didn’t mean to bring in the French and Germans again, it must be a problem with my keyboard.
So where are those protests? How does the Left feel about begging America like a bunch of pussies to come and defend them during not a war, but what is really nothing more than a large convention. Greece cannot defend itself during a large Avon convention? It gets no help from its fellow EU members and it turns to whom? The great enemy, the great Satan, the unilateral guntoting cowboy America? to do what? defend it against Islamofascists? NO! The same Islamofascists that the Greek government and vast majority of its citizens believe can best be dealt with through “dialogue” and “peaceful negotiations?”
Where’s Broon Ale when you need some good jokes impugning the Greek manhood? virility? sensibility?
This is the land that gave us Plato and Aristotle among numerous other great thinkers and this is the kind of logical inconsistency that we face today?
Fred, you are making things up again, or at least projecting false images, i have seen no evidence that suggests that Greece asked for help from anyone in the EU, therefore you are incorrect to suggest in the manner you have that it has received no help from them, if not asked for how can any be provided.
Heavens above fred, even i would not call the US that, go and wash your anti-US mouth out at once.
But why would Greece have to ask or even accept American help when it is a member of the EU and why given its anti-American screeds and stances should we help it? I think that this is very highminded of America and those that do not agree should protest against this “intervention” in another country.
I mean South Vietnam sought our help and that was wrong, imperialism I believe the word was. Kuwait sought out our help and that was wrong according to the zmag.org which claims we “bombed” kuwait. etc. etc. How do we know that we will not be blamed for “intervention” and “interference” in Greece?
As far as Greece is concerned, then in many ways, not all, i am inclined to agree, it should have asked other EU countries first, BUT, as the largest member of NATO, of which Greece is also a member, why should it not ask you?
Just because you have been asked, does not mean that the US has to respond positively, although for political reasons there may not be to much choice, the bad PR form a refusal i think would put the penultimate nail in GWB’s coffin.
Seems that the Brits are handling all VIP and participants security at the olympic games in Athens, as well as anti terrorist operations…so you know where you can stick most of your Europe/Britain remarks, don’t you? Yep, that’s right. You can stick them back up your-ask me for a link if you want.
Find any anti-British remarks made by me in this thread? I asked why European countries were not turning to other European countries for their security needs especially given their virulent anti-militarism and anti-Americanism coupled with their particularly virulent form of “peaceloving” pacifism.
No where did I make anti-British remarks. I have, however, made anti-German and anti-French remarks. Otherwise, I rarely mention Europe at all. This particularly thread was devoted to Greece since it has been very anti-American and very anti-militaristic unless it is supporting Serbia’s ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia.
:loco: