Euthanasia for the Disabled

Fred & Huang Gang Chen make a good point about resources. There are a finite amount of resources in the medical world. There is ALWAYS some form of rationing of health care services being done. In the U.S., the rationing is based on “individual choice” - ok, ok then, the ability to pay. Do you have insurance? Yes? Then, you get one form of health care. You don’t? Ok, then you get charity and/or bankruptcy which yields health care at the latest stages of disease in the ER or no health care because you’re too sick and debilitated to work the system to get the help you need. Oh yeah, are you independently wealthy? Well, then, you get the absolute best possible care and advice that medicine can offer.

The OP’s post deals with health resources being used at the very beginning of the life spectrum, Fred & HGC mention the resources being used at the very end of the spectrum. How fair is it to ration MORE resources to these two groups in a situation of limited resources? What about the folks in the middle? Are their lives and health less important than the very young, and very ill or the very old, and very ill both of whom we are going to assume will not live long despite AGGRESSIVE and EXPENSIVE medical intervention? The point HGC makes is valid - this is from personal experience too - medical folks are already making decisions about who lives and who dies - these are the compassionate folks, IMHO. Sometimes the “cure” is worse than letting nature take its course - and the cure results in what? a few extra days or months? Lots of people have the mistaken assumption that what medicine is offering is actually worth it, in some select cases it definitely is NOT. I gotta run, but I’ll be back. Good discussion everyone.

[quote][url=http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9178/index1.html]During the last century, the average life span of Americans nearly doubled, from just 49 years in 1900 to nearly 80 years in 2000. Americans today can expect longer and healthier lives, but most of them will spend their last few years living with disabilities or chronic illnesses.

These changes are straining the U.S. health care system, which did not develop in the context of needing to serve large numbers of chronically ill and disabled elderly individuals[/url].[/quote]

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Has anyone here ever had to sign the “Do Not Rescusitate” papers on a hospitalized loved one?

I have and seen the person pull thru and come back on their own…twice. It not a comfortable thing to have on your conscience. You hope you are doing what is best for the person and not what is easiest for yourself.[/quote]

If you find me comatose or badly mangled just pull the plug. I’d sign DNR anyday of the week.
aybe I’ll tattoo it on me forehead and arse for good measure.

I’ve been in hospital strung up with 6 operations on my knee. Not fun but you can get thru it. If you’ve been in ICU or other Ward B’s you’d know there’s times when doctors creat more pain and suffering than curing.

Death if far preferable than living in agony. :help:

IMHO

PS We had to tie me father down cause with motor nuerones fucked up after a stroke he lost capacity to regulate his breathing. Would’ve been far better if they’d let me strangled him first. Took far longer to die whisping and wheezing away tied down to a bed. I’m not going to same way. Put a cap in me head first.

Nothin wrong with lethal injections… far quieter than hearing somebody gasping away for every last breath whilst the Police sing… Every Breath You Take… is steaming over the music system.

Medicine has gone off the rails and keeps people alive when otherwise they’d have been dead and gone long before. We alls meant to kark it anyways. Some should be left to die rather than be kept alive on machines for months or years on end.

HG is right though some thoughtful doctors just pump you full and you’re too numb and dumb to know if you’re not dead already.

Old age beyond… yeah really looking forward to that. NOT

[quote][url=http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20706992-23289,00.html]The college called for active euthanasia of newborns to be considered as part of an inquiry into the ethical issues raised by the policy of prolonging life in newborn babies. The inquiry is being carried out by the Nuffield Council on Bioethics.

The proposal does not spell out which conditions might justify euthanasia, but in The Netherlands mercy killing is permitted for babies with a range of incurable conditions, including severe spina bifida and the painful skin condition called epidermolysis bullosa.

Pieter Sauer, co-author of the Groningen Protocol, the Dutch national guidelines on euthanasia of newborns, claims British pediatricians unofficially perform mercy killings, and says the practice should be open.

“In England they have exactly the same type of patients as we have here,” Dr Sauer said. “English neonatologists gave me the indication this is happening in their country.”

Although euthanasia for severely handicapped newborn babies would be contentious, some British doctors and ethicists are now in favour.

The professor of human genetics at University College London, Joy Delhanty, said: “I would support these views. I think it is morally wrong to strive to keep alive babies that are then going to suffer many months or years of very ill health.”

The college’s submission was welcomed by John Harris, a member of the Government’s Human Genetics Commission and professor of bioethics at Manchester University.

“We can terminate for serious fetal abnormality up to term but cannot kill a newborn,” he said. “What do people think has happened in the passage down the birth canal to make it OK to kill the fetus at one end of the birth canal but not at the other?”

Edna Kennedy of Newcastle upon Tyne, whose son suffered epidermolysis bullosa, said: “In extremely controlled circumstances, where the baby is really suffering, it should be an option for the mother.”

However, John Wyatt, consultant neonatologist at University College London hospital, said: “Intentional killing is not part of medical care.” [/url][/quote]

Some more “news” on the topic.

Bodo

[quote][url=http://www.nuffieldbioethics.org/go/ourwork/prolonginglife/page_260.html]Introduction and aims

The Chairman of the Nuffield Council welcomed the group and thanked them for attending. The aim of the Workshop was to provide guidance for the Council on whether the topic of prolonging life in fetuses, neonates and adults was one that should be considered by the Council in more detail.

Prolonging life in fetuses and the newborn

A combination of factors relating to healthcare, law and culture in the UK had led to problems in clinical decision-making about prolonging life in the fetus. Three parties were involved in fetal medicine – health professionals, parents and the fetus.

There had been significant advances in the treatment and healthcare of the newborn over the past century, but this had not always been matched by an increase in ability to make accurate predictions about the development of disease or the chances of recovery. The age at which fetuses were viable had reduced to as little as 23 weeks. However, extremely premature babies were at risk of lung disease, brain injury, infection and blindness. Actual risk levels of disability in premature babies had been difficult to define and apply because by the time the children had grown up treatments had improved and the risks were not the same. Also, it was difficult to take decisions on the basis of percentages and statistics, since it was never certain what would happen in an individual case.

[b]Several arguments for the selective use of neonatal intensive care (NIC) could be put forward:

– NIC might be worse than death because of the pain and suffering it would cause;
– it might be futile, in the sense that the baby was very likely to die anyway;
– the prospects for the baby’s quality of life later on could be very poor; and
– considerations of cost and the allocation of limited resources might mean that NIC was not possible. [/b]

Ideally, the parents and the physicians should agree on the course of treatment. There was no agreement on whether doctors should resuscitate babies against the wishes of parents. Different physicians and parents would have varying views about whether resuscitation should be attempted. The responsibility of the parents for raising the child gave weight to the argument that the parents’ decision should be respected.

There was some discussion of the impact of assisted reproduction on the number of premature babies born. IVF (in vitro fertilisation) had increased the likelihood of premature births indirectly because of the greater number of multiple pregnancies. Other technologies, such as ultrasound and magnetic resonance, were being developed in an attempt to improve the ability to make an accurate prognosis in individual cases. However, further research was needed in all these cases.

The BMA recognised that the same moral duties were owed to babies as to adults and that the criterion in considering treatment was the baby’s best interests. An assessment of the benefits and burdens of treatment should not be separated from that criterion. Workshop participants discussed the legal and ethical issues involved in making decisions about withholding treatment, including the burden of future treatment, the costs and benefits of treatment across a whole lifetime, the difficulties of substituted judgement, and issues surrounding intent.

[b][i]Participants agreed that there had not been extensive consideration of the role of the family and the wider social consequences of prolonging the lives of fetuses and neonates.

The question of whether very premature babies and fetuses suffered and felt pain was raised. It was difficult to know whether another organism was feeling pain, but there was some evidence that fetuses mounted hormonal stress responses to painful interventions such as needle puncture.[/i][/b]

There was some discussion about the difference in the legal approach to a 23 week old fetus compared to a 23 week old premature baby. It was suggested that the difference was not justified due to the scientific evidence of a continuum of development, although another view was that the moment of birth did matter in social terms.

Participants discussed the place of social decision-making compared to clinical decision-making in terms of allocation of resources and who should be involved. There was consensus that, whoever decided, the process of decision-making should be honest and open, and there needed to be room for flexibility in individual cases.

The morning’s discussion was summed up by the Chairman, who identified several issues that had emerged:

– drawing a dividing line between the fetus and the neonate;
– the paucity of empirical research on which to base decisions in some areas;
– the need to be wary of terminology, for example the use of ‘rights’ of parents and children;
– the realities of involving parents in decisions about their children;
– the question of suffering in fetuses and neonates; and
– social issues regarding resource allocation[/url].[/quote]

Some of the issues from the original source.

Bodo

[quote][url=http://www.georgetown.edu/research/nrcbl/publications/scopenotes/sn11.pdf]Developments in neonatal intensive care over the past 25 years have led to dramatic decreases in infant mortality, to treatments for physical and mental conditions, and to improvement in the quality of life for the infants who survive. Currently, about six percent of infants who are born alive enter neonatal intensive care units; financial and human costs can be substantial, but net financial as well as human benefits generally result. Some infants with severe congenital abnormalities and/or very low birth weights are treated at great cost despite poor chances for survival. If they do survive, it is often with severe handicaps and a seriously impaired quality of life. The great costs to the infant, the family, the care providers and society have led some to conclude that the withholding or withdrawal of intensive treatment is at times ethically acceptable.

Ethical discussion of neonatal intensive care has developed over the past 15 years, addressing both substantive and procedural issues. Substantive issues focus on appropriate standards for making treatment decisions and present various options. One basic option would be to treat every newborn as aggressively as possible. A second option is selective treatment based in the balance between direct benefits and burden of care. Another set of approaches, focusing on the best interests of the infant, argues that treatment should be limited only if suffering or a radically diminished quality of life would make existence a net burden to the infant. A fourth approach considers the personal and financial costs to the family and to society (at least in extreme cases). Alternatively, some argue that there are limitations on personal and societal obligations to help in such cases because the resources used might save or improve the lives of others. Procedural issues focus on how decisions should be made. Potential decision makers include parents, physicians and other care providers, ethics or infant care review committees, and the courts. The authority of the decision maker is generally seen to be that of a proxy for the infant, but parents in particular are seen as having their own intrinsic authority as well. Some writers give priority to procedural over substantive criteria due to the complexity of the cases, the lack of a current consensus on standards, and the basic pluralism in society. Related policy concerns include preventing neonatal disabilities, financing neonatal intensive care, and providing continuing care for the disabled[/url].[/quote]

Georgetown Univ in Washington, D.C. has a nationally, perhaps internationally, renowned library of bioethics. This is some literature from them.

Bodo

[quote][quote=“Groo”]
Sorry to push this point, but you used the word “normal” again and I worry about the acceptable conditions for this. Reading the postings, the reasons to euthanize seem to be formed by people’s feelings of pity that the infant wont have a “normal life”. OK, babies die because of birth defects, but this forum is about people’s choice to end a life and so I ask again what is the criteria for a normal life?[/quote]

I don’t claim to have the AMA definition, but I believe I wrote: “birth defects that totally and completely incapacitate the child” and will stick by it.

You seem to want to get hung up on “What is a normal life?” And I don’t. Compared to my friends back in the world, I don’t live a normal life. I suppose the basic level of normacly is being able to breathe on your own.

I think the emotional burden is that of not wanting to watch your child suffer endlessly/ceaselessly with no hope of improvement.

Groo, you are still playing the same tune after all this? We are NOT talking about “simple deformities” here. Babies with no brains are not deformed. They are incomplete human beings with no hope whatsoever of communicating or understanding the world around them. To keep them artificially alive is an extention of our egos via science and medicine. THAT is playing God, not putting the baby out of its mysery. That would be compassion IMHO.

There is talk of the soul and spirituality in this thread too. "If you believe that “every sperm is sacred” please jump right in and say so. But stop laying these little traps, “What IS normal?” would you?

I don’t believe in god and although I do feel that LIFE is sacred, individual lives, in the grand scheme of things, are not.

Bodo, is your point that far fewer newborns would even be affected by these new “regulations?”

The many people who have had hope and have happily raised deformed or mentally handicapped children might disagree with you.

I don’t know how to play tunes. OK, I agree with you if a baby has no brain, then take it off the respirator. If your baby has something wrong with it that wont repair itself after much trying to help it live, then allow the baby to die.

“If you believe every sperm is sacred please say so”??? Who exactly is laying traps?

I don’t think religion adds or subtracts anything; religious people and non-religious people make choices, good and bad. But religion is ancient wisdom and has kept civilizations going for a very long time. So, if you choose to immediately go against it, you may be throwing away good, time-tested wisdom.

Even if you’re the worlds biggest atheist, you must see that life is the zenith of what the universe has created and the continuation of the human species might give you hope and meaning (or are athiests allowed these things? - topic for another forum) I guess I believe holding sacred the individual actually helps the whole. Socialogically, human societies are best when there is variation in them. And if society is not for supporting the individual then we are in big trouble.

How can I put this in a way that you will see clearly? I am not talking about Down’s syndome babies, or kids born fine but without limbs, or blind or deaf kids, or cleft pallet or whatnot.

You seem to have accepted babies born without brains as an example of the severity of disability that I am talking about.

So, why bring up deformed or mentally handicapped babies? NO ONE is even talking about them.

You see to want to box me into a corner where you think people who only want perfect babies and will reject any baby based on any imperfection. Why?

Does human life have gradations? In other words, is a healthy baby 100% human and a severely deformed baby which has never shown signs of consciousness some percentage less than “fully human”?

In response to the “is every sperm sacred?” line of discussion, I believe that human life begins at conception and abortion during the first three months of gestation therefore destroys a human life but I acknowledge that that’s purely a religious belief and shouldn’t be made into law because it amounts to imposing religious tenets on a secular society.

[quote=“spook”]Does human life have gradations? In other words, is a healthy baby 100% human and a severely deformed baby which has never shown signs of consciousness some percentage less than “fully human”?

In response to the “is every sperm sacred?” line of discussion, I believe that human life begins at conception and abortion during the first three months of gestation therefore destroys a human life but I acknowledge that that’s purely a religious belief and shouldn’t be made into law because it amounts to imposing religious tenets on a secular society.[/quote]

:bravo:

Wish there were more like you, spook!

HG

Yes, there are gradations.
I agree that the human life begins at conception.
I do not believe that such life constitutes an individual self.

What is it about human life that is valued? Is it simply being human, or particular aspects of the individual self? I suggest that it’s clearly the self.

[edit: I should clarify that. I’m not looking to rank individuals, I’m making a distinction between individuals and human life that has not/will not developed a self.]

Early retirement.

The medical world doesn’t look at gradations of human life, or souls. It looks at viability and viability at what cost/level of intervention.

HG

It would be interesting to see this hierarchy of human life spelled out. It would take a brave and wise soul to create this taxonomy without it being some sort of monstrosity of eugenics.

One would naturally look for a line in it above which so much humanity is demonstrably present that life would be sacrosanct.

Naturally. In an attempt to narrow the field…

Scrape my skin, culture the cells in a petri dish. The resulting growth will be human life, yet neither me, nor individual, nor worthy of particular protection.

Scrape out my entire brain, hook what’s left up to machines. The result will be human life, yet neither me, nor any longer another more than the remains of an individual, nor worthy of particular protection beyond the dignity due personal remains.

Do you agree?

[quote=“Jaboney”]Naturally. In an attempt to narrow the field…

Scrape my skin, culture the cells in a petri dish. The resulting growth will be human life, yet neither me, nor individual, nor worthy of particular protection.

Scrape out my entire brain, hook what’s left up to machines. The result will be human life, yet neither me, nor any longer another more than the remains of an individual, nor worthy of particular protection beyond the dignity due personal remains.

Do you agree?[/quote]

I guess I’m going to have to define ‘human life’ so we don’t get sidetracked with discussions about the inalienable rights of human tissue.

I work with kids who are disabled. Judging their lives by our standards is a ridiculous thing.

Well, yes.
You could adopt a hardcore position and assert that all life is sacred, or that all forms of human life are sacred. I do not think that either position would really be meaningful, though.

My own position is that a life arising from a human female, through entirely natural means, will, in rare circumstances, fail to meet tests designed to identify ‘human life’ and would instead be better defined as ‘living human tissue’.

That standard would not be social utility, number of fingers and toes, nor even minimal IQ.
I imagine that basic capacity to emote would the place to begin looking… something beyond mere autonomic responses to the needs of the flesh.

Yes, you are right, Jdsmith, the rights and wrongs of abortion are an entirely different issue and my posts were off-topic. Any discussion of killing babies is going to be a highly emotional topic, even if the babies are born without brains and hearts on the outside of their skins. It’s certainly not an easy problem to deal with, even theoretically on an internet forum.