I’ve often been asked the question by some locals, “why do you learn Chinese?” I usually reply, “because I live here and it’s necessary for me to be able to communicate in order to function.” I sometimes get a reponse that floors me: " But everyone here understands English." Recently, my gf (who speaks English well because her parents sent her to English cram schools from a young age and then overseas for intensive study) echoed this silly sentiment. I told her if she’s so convinced that all people in Taiwan speak English so well, she should take any particular day and try to spend that day speaking only English to everyone she meets-- she’d quickly learn how few people actually comprehend even simple English.
Anyway, discussion point(s): Have you encountered this strange, “everyone in Taiwan speaks English,” point of view? Or am I just meeting weird people?
Wierd people. I’ve never had that experience. Working with Taiwanese immigrant kids in the US I’ve been impressed with their writing abilities, but speaking skills were lower, and comprehension skills even lower still. They may be taking English class in school, but ususally taught be a native Taiwanese, so of course their ability to converse with a native English speaker is ususally low. That’s unless you count, “Howaryoo?”, “A-B-C-1-2-tree” as conversation.
My colleagues sometimes insist on coming along with me on various errands to ‘translate’ when the people I am going to be dealing with speak english adequately enough, or the task can be achieved with minimal communication if any.
Yes, but I have met many Taiwanese who actually speak very poorly, as you point out, but who do not believe it. Most of them would probably agree that most Taiwanese know English well - because they’ve studied it for ten years in school. This attitude was even worse in Korea.
Their spoken English is usually poor, even if they have studied it for years. Most people in Taiwan can’t speak English at all. Nevertheless they will often claim that the English level of people in Taiwan is good, as the OP pointed out.
I think it is pride in their educational system winning out over common sense - they’ve heard for years how their system is superior, how hard their students work compared to students in the West; English is an academic subject, so - just like their math skills - their English skills must be superior too.
[quote=“bababa”]
Yes, but I have met many Taiwanese who actually speak very poorly, as you point out, but who do not believe it. Most of them would probably agree that most Taiwanese know English well - because they’ve studied it for ten years in school. [/quote]
This drives me bonkers. I often try to get people to talk to me in Chinese because I don’t understand their English and when I tell them I don’t understand their English they don’t believe me.
Perceived superiority of the education system, eh? That might make sense.
I was in the office of my school recently when a local teacher handed me some translations of the school’s name and advertising slogans she had produced. I was asked to check the them. She was shocked and perhaps a little upset when I substantially altered her translations. “Sorry,” I said, “but the English you wrote didn’t make sense.” Turns out it wasn’t her idea to ask me to check over the documents; it was the boss’. The coworker seemed a little upset at being upstaged.
Perhaps that is part of the reason for so much bad English here-- Locals who think they know the language well and won’t even ask a foreigner to help translate or double check writing.
Although “everyone speaks English”, they don’t speak English all the time. Since that’s the case, if you don’t know Chinese, then you can’t understand what people are saying in Chinese. You can’t watch local TV shows, listen to the radio, or even eavesdrop on conversations. Legally, if there is a difference between the Chinese and the English in a document, the Chinese version is binding. It’s not 100% necessary to communicate with others in the language of the country, but it is our natural human instinct to be curious about the communications of others. And learning a language is a good hobby, too.
[quote=“SuchAFob”][quote=“bababa”]
Yes, but I have met many Taiwanese who actually speak very poorly, as you point out, but who do not believe it. Most of them would probably agree that most Taiwanese know English well - because they’ve studied it for ten years in school. [/quote]
This drives me bonkers. I often try to get people to talk to me in Chinese because I don’t understand their English and when I tell them I don’t understand their English they don’t believe me.[/quote]
Even worse when they refuse to believe that something they wrote or said is wrong. If I hear “but that’s what we were taught in middle school” one more time … Of course if they learned it in school, it must be right and the educated native speaker must be wrong. I had a big argument once with a student - her teacher had taught them that “I fell the horse off.” was correct; nothing I said could convince them otherwise.
I guess I can’t function then, because I’ve lived in Taiwan 7 years and my Mandarin is shite. I also spent a year in SE Asia and can’t speak any of those languages. So I’d have to disagree that knowlege of the native tongue is necessary in order to function.
But I’d also disagree with that. Even at my office there are college grads who can barely speak English (though, fortunately most employees have good English skills), but on the street, in 7/11, McDonalds, Welcome, the local stores, etc., I’d say only a small percentage can speak decent English.
Another thing is that people here are ALL convinced that ALL the doctors here speak English. I have yet to find one who does and a couple of my privates are doctors with horrible English.
[color=olive]Well, I think the key word is that everyone here in Taiwan who goes to school has to take English classes. And I do believe that every here speaks English or understands some English. Taiwanese people are very industrious when it comes to communicating with people. Although sometimes their language skills seem to be a bit poor, their communication skills and overall will to communicate is quite strong.
I studied Chinese for fun and also because I feel silly going to the corner store and trying to buy something using hand signs and broken English. Life is easier and more colorful if you can communicate in the local language. It’s not necessary for everyone, but it is for me.
Oh, one time I had a student who insisted that the way I said “poor” was wrong. She got her books out to show me that I was wrong. I tried to explain to her that English has many different varieties and that sometimes more than one way is acceptable. She disagreed. She insisited I was wrong. I told her to get out of my classroom and not come back until she could show me some respect as a teacher. This she understood. [/color]
oh, and PS, about Foreigners who don’t speak Chinese, the fact that I can speak Chinese is a secret to my students and they believe it…even after 100 years of living here in Taiwan. Things like that entertain me.
yup english is hard but mandrin is harder for me . I am starting on pimsleurs mandrin and not doing so well… I just hope my pronunciation gets better I am learning more by the day. I figure kids learn to talk by wants and needs: so I will do the same. Mordeth learned (as he says) by asking co-workers a word or a few words a day. I am going to go with the same philosophy.
[quote=“bababa”][quote=“SuchAFob”][quote=“bababa”]
Yes, but I have met many Taiwanese who actually speak very poorly, as you point out, but who do not believe it. Most of them would probably agree that most Taiwanese know English well - because they’ve studied it for ten years in school. [/quote]
This drives me bonkers. I often try to get people to talk to me in Chinese because I don’t understand their English and when I tell them I don’t understand their English they don’t believe me.[/quote]
Even worse when they refuse to believe that something they wrote or said is wrong. If I hear “but that’s what we were taught in middle school” one more time … Of course if they learned it in school, it must be right and the educated native speaker must be wrong. I had a big argument once with a student - her teacher had taught them that “I fell the horse off.” was correct; nothing I said could convince them otherwise.[/quote]
Hmmmm…I recently had a student tell me, “My mommy helped me with the sentence. She said it’s right and she’s a teacher…”
Some highlights:
“More than 13,000 senior students at senior high schools got a zero score for the English-language composition in the scholastic ability test while over 2,100 of them failed to get any score for Chinese composition.”
Furthermore, “For the translation section in the English-language test, there was an even higher number of 16,465 students receiving a zero score.”
And this excerpt for a Taiwanese teachers’ reaction, “One teacher who supervised the examinations shook her head in disbelief about the unusually high numbers of students getting zero scores after studying both Chinese languages for almost 12 years and English for around 10 years.”
[quote=“douglas@taichungpaws.org”][color=olive]Well, I think the key word is that everyone here in Taiwan who goes to school has to take English classes. And I do believe that every here speaks English or understands some English. Taiwanese people are very industrious when it comes to communicating with people. Although sometimes their language skills seem to be a bit poor, their communication skills and overall will to communicate is quite strong.
I studied Chinese for fun and also because I feel silly going to the corner store and trying to buy something using hand signs and broken English. Life is easier and more colorful if you can communicate in the local language. It’s not necessary for everyone, but it is for me.
[/quote]
I think it’s a bit (actually a lot) of a stretch to assert that “every” (sic) here speaks English. It’s simply not true. I undertook Mandarin study because it was necessary for me to do so as life without the ability was just too difficult. Life was difficult precisely because I was not able to communicate with people using English.
Douglas, I believe you are contradicting yourself in your post. On the one hand, you believe everyone here has a functional level of English, but on the other, you say you learned Mandarin to avoid difficulty in your daily transactions. If everyone, as you claim, has a functional understanding of English, such difficulties wouldn’t have existed.
Most people here do not speak or understand even rudimentary spoken English. If they did, I would never have undertaken Mandarin study.
In the business world here in Taiwan, that assumption (that all/most Taiwanese speak English) is very common and can be extremely contraproductive.
Example:
We’re looking for a new assistant for the department. I write a description of needed skills/experience/type, etc. for the HR department. One of the skills is advanced level of English, especially business English.
Few weeks later, HR comes back with a couple of candidates they have already filtered out. Before I see them I ask HR if they’re sure these people can do [skill 1], [skill 2], etc. … AND is their English at the necessary level.
Their answer is: “It must be. It’s on their CV.”
Me: “But have you tested them on all those skills?”
HR: dumb look “But that could embarrass them.”
Me: “Only if they can’t do what they say they can.”
HR: look: what’s your point, crazy foreigner?
I don’t need to tell you what I found out when I actually tested them.
This “Their English must be good because they studied it/ because they say it is.” line is so common it’s not even funny. And not only for English of course. The face thing drives me nuts.
One of my ex-colleagues recently told me they (the company from the above example) fired a person they hired to do webdesign after 3 months because it turned out he couldn’t do it. But it was on his CV and of course nobody questioned it. After THREE months!
Firstly, it has always surprised me that young Taiwanese adults, those in their 20’s and early 30’s, speak such poor English. They have all studied it for years, yet seem incapable of remembering anything they learnt. I’m pretty sure I could muster up a French convo, having studied it at school, likewise I’m sure I can still do calculus etc. It hasn’t fallen out. So where do the Taiwanese manage to lose all their English? My girlfriends brother still hasn’t shown any understanding of English after 4 years of knowing him. I wonder where it all went. It is espcially surprising given the amount of focus the kids place (or have placed onto them) on passing tests. I would have thought that more people were beeter at English than I have seen evidenced in the past 4 years.
Secondly, how weird is THAT conversation in 7-11 etc? You know the one. The one where you are speaking in Mandarin, and the clerk is speaking in English. And neither of you is backing down, and neither of you fully understands the other one. Those are classics, which would go global on youtube.
