Actually, it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills. It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).
Actually, [color=red]it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills.[/color] It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Stimpy, is there any sort of acknowledged theory or evidence to support the idea mentioned above?
To my mind I never needed to learn Math, or Chemistry, and never once practically applied them in my life. But I’m willing to wager I could still answer a trigonometry question, or complete a mole count 15 years after I last tried.
So why do so many seem to not know high frequency usage English words, like apple or computer?
Double post.
OI vey.
Triple post.
I’m just a trigger happy attention whore.
Actually, [color=red]it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills.[/color] It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Stimpy, is there any sort of acknowledged theory or evidence to support the idea mentioned above?
To my mind I never needed to learn Math, or Chemistry, and never once practically applied them in my life. But I’m willing to wager I could still answer a trigonometry question, or complete a mole count 15 years after I last tried.
So why do so many seem to not know high frequency usage English words, like apple or computer?[/quote]
You seem, in one moment, to want to take on a language teacher with nearly a decade of experience when he points out that Taiwan’s English education, focussed strictly on passing tests (tests that are a load of shite-- I’ve seen them), impedes real acquisition and retention of the language. In the very next sentence, you ask why people don’t know more of the highest frequency English words. Hmmm…
Actually, [color=red]it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills.[/color] It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Stimpy, is there any sort of acknowledged theory or evidence to support the idea mentioned above?
To my mind I never needed to learn Math, or Chemistry, and never once practically applied them in my life. But I’m willing to wager I could still answer a trigonometry question, or complete a mole count 15 years after I last tried.
So why do so many seem to not know high frequency usage English words, like apple or computer?[/quote]
You seem, in one moment, to want to take on a language teacher with nearly a decade of experience when he points out that Taiwan’s English education, focussed strictly on passing tests (tests that are a load of shite-- I’ve seen them), impedes real acquisition and retention of the language. In the very next sentence, you ask why people don’t know more of the highest frequency English words. Hmmm…[/quote]
Is it that Forumosa is still a place of anger and insults, or are you a sensitive person, Stimpy?
I asked: Stimpy, is there any sort of acknowledged theory or evidence to support the idea mentioned above?
You interpreted it to mean: I want to take on a language teacher with nearly a decade of experience. That I was in some way making a personal remark about you and who you are and what you have done with your life. That’s either paranoia or narcissicm.
Where did you infer a conflict from my request? How would you have preferred the question to have been asked? Do you think you might have overblown my request just a little?
Then you wrote: ‘you ask why people…’ So after deciding to interpret my post as an insult, you felt you needed to sling one back, by questioning my logic and therefore my mental faculties.
It’s either you, or this place is still the site where ‘People make themselves feel better by deliberately mis-interpreting the word of strangers.’ Cool.
Have a nice day. I wish you happiness. Try not to take that as sarcasm please.
The more things seem to change, the more they stay the same, don’t you think it’s strange?
One of my advanced students, who has to be the best in the class at English grammar, reading, etc (all reading / writing related tasks) is a case in point. I once asked him to tell me which buttons to push on our school’s Chinese labeled microwave and he could not adequately explain to me how to do it. He could do it for me if I told him what I needed cooked and for how long (listening task) but explain? Nope. Doesn’t have the vocabulary or the ability to construct real speech.
Actually, [color=red]it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills.[/color] It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Stimpy, is there any sort of acknowledged theory or evidence to support the idea mentioned above?
To my mind I never needed to learn Math, or Chemistry, and never once practically applied them in my life. But I’m willing to wager I could still answer a trigonometry question, or complete a mole count 15 years after I last tried.[/quote]The empirical research conducted into classroom second language acquisition over the last few decades would certainly suggest that passing tests and using language for communication are two quite different things. Of course, there are tests and tests. Good modern tests are truly communicative in nature. But when you compare language testing to math and chemistry testing I guess you are thinking of more traditional tests which test discrete points of learned knowledge.
I guess you’re lucky when it comes to remembering things. I certainly can’t remember much of the maths, physics, etc. that I did in school. It’s my impression that most people are the same.
[quote=“superking”]So why do so many seem to not know high frequency usage English words, like apple or computer?[/quote]“Apple” isn’t that frequent. I would guess that “computer” is a bit more common. Most of the real high frequency stuff is function words, as opposed to content ones.
However, concrete nouns such as “apple” and “computer” are among the easiest bits of language to learn, and indeed it seems that a using a combination of methods, possibly including flashcard review, is what works best for vocabulary learning. And this kind of learning is actually quite amenable to discrete-point testing.
In any case, I don’t find that most students have trouble with words such as “computer” or “apple”. The things which take longest to acquire fall broadly under the category of grammar: morphology, syntax, and also things such as correct choice of prepositions.
Life here would be ever so much more convenient if the locals spoke and understood my english.
You lot are just not doing your jobs!
[quote=“joesax”]The empirical research conducted into classroom second language acquisition over the last few decades would certainly suggest that passing tests and using language for communication are two quite different things. Of course, there are tests and tests. Good modern tests are truly communicative in nature. But when you compare language testing to math and chemistry testing I guess you are thinking of more traditional tests which test discrete points of learned knowledge.
I guess you’re lucky when it comes to remembering things. I certainly can’t remember much of the maths, physics, etc. that I did in school. It’s my impression that most people are the same.
[quote=“superking”]So why do so many seem to not know high frequency usage English words, like apple or computer?[/quote]“Apple” isn’t that frequent. I would guess that “computer” is a bit more common. Most of the real high frequency stuff is function words, as opposed to content ones.
However, concrete nouns such as “apple” and “computer” are among the easiest bits of language to learn, and indeed it seems that a using a combination of methods, possibly including flashcard review, is what works best for vocabulary learning. And this kind of learning is actually quite amenable to discrete-point testing.
In any case, I don’t find that most students have trouble with words such as “computer” or “apple”. The things which take longest to acquire fall broadly under the category of grammar: morphology, syntax, and also things such as correct choice of prepositions.[/quote]
Thanks for your engaging repsonse. I didn’t mean to challenge Stimpy with my first post, and your response validates that. Thank you.
Two points: Maybe I do remember things more easily. It’s so hard not to judge other people by one’s own standards. I’m guilty there. If I can do it, why can’t you? It’s a common mentality, but not a perfect one.
Also, my general comments had in mind the average adult who is no longer a student of English. I recall my girlfriends brother pointing to my computer and asking in Mandarin, ‘what’s that in English?’ I was suprised that he didn’t know.
“Does everyone in Taiwan speak English?”
No, many of them don’t.
“Why?”
Many people are simply embarrassed. Speaking English in front of other Taiwanese people is sometimes considered a show-off. Lack of practice makes it even worse. Many don’t have English-speaking foreign friends. Imagine, would two Americans speak Chinese to each other in Chicago?
“Should a foreigner in Taiwan learn how to speak Chinese?”
Not really, but it will make life in Taiwan easier. I respect the people that make an effort to learn Chinese, but I also understand that not everyone has the time and the motivation to learn the language. The simple principle for me is that whatever country I travel to, I shouldn’t expect others to be able to communicate with me in the language “I” am comfortable with.
Sorry for such a long post. So many of you brought up so many interesting points that I wanted to share my experiences.
No, you are not just meeting weird people. I’ve heard this a million times.
I’m not surprised. Many cram schools that I have taught at here focus on written English (grammar, spelling, etc) more than conversation.
This has happened to me many times over the years. When I’ve had a student tell me,“but my elementary school English teacher told me it’s this way,” I’ve told that student to tell the teacher that s/he is WRONG! (My students know I like to joke with them. Of course they laugh and tell me that they could never say that. And then I always tell them that it’s good enough to know the correct way, and to say nothing to embarrass their elementary school teacher!)
I guess I can’t function then, because I’ve lived in Taiwan 7 years and my Mandarin is shite. I also spent a year in SE Asia and can’t speak any of those languages. So I’d have to disagree that knowlege of the native tongue is necessary in order to function.[/quote]
I’m stupid when it comes to foreign languages. It took me years to learn Spanish, so I know that I can never learn Chinese. (I can’t hear or say the tones). I’ve lived in Taipei for years and can do most things by myself in English. Luckily, I have many Taiwanese friends who have helped me when I 've needed it.
But I’d also disagree with that. Even at my office there are college grads who can barely speak English (though, fortunately most employees have good English skills), but on the street, in 7/11, McDonalds, Welcome, the local stores, etc., I’d say only a small percentage can speak decent English.[/quote]
Nothing drives me crazy more than the McDonald’s cashier who runs away from the counter when she sees me walking in, afraid to even open her mouth to me in any language. Especially since I only have to point to the #4 value meal on the menu card on the counter!
Really? I guess I’ve been lucky. Although every doctor and dentist that I have been to has always asked me at the beginning if I speak Chinese! When I say that I don’t, they can describe my problem and the solution without problem. Of course they speak to me in medical English, words like inflammation, mucus, etc. But then again, I’ve never had a conversation with a doctor about hobbies or travel or anything else. So I’m sure that even my doctors might have a hard time discussing things outside of his or her medical field in English.
The same thing happened to me with a student. I pronounce “poor,” “pour” and “pore” the same way (as in “pore”). He had learned “poor” to be pronounced with a long u sound, and couldn’t understand me. So for this student, I had to change my pronunciation so that he could understand me. haha
Wow, that’s scary. Maybe (my) ignorance (of Chinese) is bliss. Who knows how many Taiwanese have been telling me the same thing!
One of my advanced students, who has to be the best in the class at English grammar, reading, etc (all reading / writing related tasks) is a case in point. I once asked him to tell me which buttons to push on our school’s Chinese labeled microwave and he could not adequately explain to me how to do it. He could do it for me if I told him what I needed cooked and for how long (listening task) but explain? Nope. Doesn’t have the vocabulary or the ability to construct real speech.[/quote]
It’s like the word apple. Most students can spell it, but when I ask them to make a sentence, they’ll say or write something very basic: There is an apple. I like apples. An apple is red. But they would never put together all the English words that they have learned to write: I’m hungry. Let’s go to the store to buy some apples.
Actually, it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills. It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Has anyone else seen high school kids somewhere with a huge list of vocabulary words? The Chinese character is next to the English word. The kids just learn what each English word means. Why? Because their English test (tomorrow morning?hehehe) is to write the Chinese character for the English word. I feel sorry for these kids who have to learn English this way. I know that whenever I’ve crammed for a test that I’ve forgotten it as soon as the test is over. Even though it adds a lot of time to my grading, I always give sentence writing homework using the new vocabulary words to my students.
“from stimpy: Douglas, I believe you are contradicting yourself in your post.”
Sorry, I’m not very good at quoting what other people posted. I didn’t contradict myself. I wasn’t agreeing with the simple statement that “everyone here speaks English”; I was simply stating that everyone who goes to school in Taiwan studies English. Certainly that doesn’t mean that they have developed a level of communication skill. I was also saying that Taiwanese are very industrious when it comes to communicating, whether it’s in English, Mandarin, Taiwanese, aboriginal langages or Japanese. I still say they are pretty good at communicating. I don’t see the contradiction.
[color=green]AND to those who didn’t understand my statement about things that entertain me: That also entertains me! 
[/color]
Actually, it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills. It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Has anyone else seen high school kids somewhere with a huge list of vocabulary words? The Chinese character is next to the English word. The kids just learn what each English word means. Why? Because their English test (tomorrow morning?hehehe) is to write the Chinese character for the English word. I feel sorry for these kids who have to learn English this way. I know that whenever I’ve crammed for a test that I’ve forgotten it as soon as the test is over. Even though it adds a lot of time to my grading, I always give sentence writing homework using the new vocabulary words to my students.[/quote]We all know that rich, meaningful contexts are important in language learning, so common sense would seem to dictate that sentence-writing with new words would be superior to learning word pairs (words and their translations). However, research shows that it’s not as simple as that.
Learning decontextualised word pairs can in fact form a useful part of vocabulary learning, especially during initial stages. Of course for breadth and depth of semantic and collocational vocabulary knowledge, students need to see words/phrases in a variety of contexts. But studying word pairs, for example with flashcards, is a very efficient way of getting and maintaining a basic grounding in a wide range of vocabulary. For more on this need for a variety of approaches, see the work of Paul Nation, Joe Barcroft, and Rob Waring.
Sentence writing practice may help in vocabulary acquisition (though it would seem that meaningful sentence writing might be more effective than sentence writing for the sake of it). However, this practice is probably best not done in the initial stages of new vocabulary acquisition. Research by Joe Barcroft and others shows that this kind of forced output done too early can actually inhibit acquisition, perhaps because mental processing resources are strained. The same goes for “semantic elaboration” exercises done too early. Semantic elaboration includes such things as linking words’ various literal and metaphorical meanings, work on the various different collocations of words, work on synonyms and antonyms, and grouping words in lexical sets. Such things can all be very useful practices when done as a second stage of vocabulary acquisition, after initial “binding” of new words is completed. But if done too early they can slow down acquisition.
I wonder about this opinion that Chinese learning isn’t necessary. I suppose it isn’t for everybody. Indeed, I’ve met foreigners who’ve been here for much longer than I have who haven’t learned Mandarin for whatever reason (too busy, no aptitude for languages and so on…). I don’t know that a blanket statement claiming that learning Mandarin isn’t necessary for expats is suitable, though. I think the need for Mandarin learning is going to depend on the expat and his individual circumstances. In my case, for example, I don’t think I could live my life as it is now without speaking at least some Mandarin, some of the time. Again, alot depends on the individual, what he does, where he lives and whom he lives with, how he wants to live and how much he wants to engage this place.
Absolutely correct. It depends on the individual. I live in Taipei, but I’ve traveled all over Taiwan, and I know that it was much harder for me when I was in the smaller cities and towns. I probably would have starved on Penghu if it weren’t for me Taiwanese friends. ‘
’
Absolutely correct. It depends on the individual. I live in Taipei, but I’ve traveled all over Taiwan, and I know that it was much harder for me when I was in the smaller cities and towns. I probably would have starved on Penghu if it weren’t for me Taiwanese friends. ‘’[/quote]Even in Taipei I find using Mandarin can help a lot. I’m only really pre-intermediate level in Mandarin but even so, a whole lot of stuff is made much easier by using it. That includes phone calls, shopping, bank stuff, travel arrangements, and all other aspects of daily life.
Actually, it is the focus on passing tests, as opposed to learning for communication purposes, that likely leads to poor acquisition and retention of foreign language skills. It’s the language equivalent of the reverse “s” curve (a completely useless manuveur needed for passing a driving test).[/quote]
Has anyone else seen high school kids somewhere with a huge list of vocabulary words? The Chinese character is next to the English word. The kids just learn what each English word means. Why? Because their English test (tomorrow morning?hehehe) is to write the Chinese character for the English word. I feel sorry for these kids who have to learn English this way. I know that whenever I’ve crammed for a test that I’ve forgotten it as soon as the test is over. Even though it adds a lot of time to my grading, I always give sentence writing homework using the new vocabulary words to my students.[/quote]
Learning decontextualised word pairs can in fact form a useful part of vocabulary learning, especially during initial stages. Of course for breadth and depth of semantic and collocational vocabulary knowledge, students need to see words/phrases in a variety of contexts. But studying word pairs, for example with flashcards, is a very efficient way of getting and maintaining a basic grounding in a wide range of vocabulary. For more on this need for a variety of approaches, see the work of Paul Nation, Joe Barcroft, and Rob Waring.[/quote]
Thanks for the info. I’ll check them out.
Yeah, I’ll agree with that. Add to that a lack of confidence in making an ass out of yourself orally and then learning by it. That is one of the big problems. They’d rather keep quiet, say a simple thing in Chinese or feign ignorance than try to speak lest they pronounce something wrong or use incorrect grammar.
The best class I have with the best spoken English I’ve come across amongst kids in cram schools is a GEPT class I teach. They are all either sixth or seventh grade and talk your ear off for two hours straight. They ask questions, laugh at each other good naturedly but soldier on nonetheless. That, in my opinion is the best way to learn. I have yet to give them a task (speaking, listening, writing, reading or translation) that they were unable to do. If they get it wrong they try again and usually get it right. Pity I only have them 2 hours a week.