quote Oriental Organ Transplant Centre (also called Tianjin City No 1 Central Hospital),
Tianjin City, (15 March 2006):
N: Is this Director Song?"
Song: Yes, please speak."
…
N: Her doctor told her that the kidney is quite good because he
[the supplier,] practises …Falun Gong."
Song: “Of course. We have all those who breathe and with heart beat…Up until now, for this year, we have more than ten kidneys, more than ten such kidneys.”
N: “More than ten of this kind of kidneys? You mean live bodies?”
Song: “Yes it is so.”[/quote]
[quote]Section 26, page 39) Blood testing and organ examination
Falun Gong practitioners in detention are systematically blood tested and organ
examined. Other prisoners, who are not practitioners, sitting side by side, with
practitioners are not tested. This differential testing occurs in labour camps, prisons
and detention centres. We have heard such a large number of testimonials to this
effect that this differential testing exists beyond a shadow of a doubt. These tests
and examination happen whether practitioners are held at labour camps, prisons or
detention centres. Interview statements testifying to systematic blood testing and
organ examination of Falun Gong practitioners to the exclusion of other prisoners are
attached as an appendix to this report.
The practitioners themselves are not told the reason for the testing and examination.
It is unlikely that the testing and examination serves a health purpose. For one, it is
unnecessary to blood test and organ examine people systematically simply as a health
precaution. For another, the health of the Falun Gong in detention is disregarded in
so many other ways, it is implausible that the authorities would blood test and organ
examine Falun Gong as a precautionary health measure.
Blood testing is a pre-requisite for organ transplants. Donors need to be matched
with recipients so that the antibodies of the recipients do not reject the organs of the
donors. The mere fact of blood testing and organ examination does not establish that organ
harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners is taking place. But the opposite is true. If
there were no blood testing, the allegation would be disproved. The widespread
blood testing of Falun Gong practitioners in detention cuts off this avenue of disproof.[/quote]
Do I think it suspicious Falun Gongers are being blood and organ tested to the exclusion of other prisoners? Yes. Do I think there are other highly suspicious events happening here? Yes. But I am not yet sold on the concentration camps story, and neither are some other people of good will.
I agree with you this is no laughing matter. However I suspect some of the other posters don’t believe there is any credibility to Kilgoure’s investigations at all, hence the bad jokes.
quote Oriental Organ Transplant Centre (also called Tianjin City No 1 Central Hospital),
Tianjin City, (15 March 2006):
N: Is this Director Song?"
Song: Yes, please speak."
…
N: Her doctor told her that the kidney is quite good because he
[the supplier,] practises …Falun Gong."
Song: “Of course. We have all those who breathe and with heart beat…Up until now, for this year, we have more than ten kidneys, more than ten such kidneys.”
N: “More than ten of this kind of kidneys? You mean live bodies?”
Song: “Yes it is so.”[/quote][/quote]
Why is anyone even bothering with this thread? It was Godwinned long ago, which is proof positive this isn’t going to go anywhere within eyeshot of logic or sanity.
I find there to frequently be no difference, especially when dealing with idiots.
That means a Nazi comparison was made for those less in-the-know than Tetsuo. Duh, it’s in the bloody thread title, dude. So what? Who cares? What is it with this Nazi-mention taboo thing? Stay off the thread if you have nothing to contribute but hot air. You want to put your resume up against David Kilgour’s?
Or how about the French Justice Minister’s?
[quote]Organ Harvesting Cannot Be Tolerated, Says French Justice Minister
By Xiao Ming and Zhang Zicun The Epoch Times
At the recent 3rd World Conference Against the Death Penalty held in Paris, current French Minister of Justice Pascal Clement and Minister of Justice during the Mitterrand government Robert Badinter said that the Chinese Communist regime’s organ harvesting cannot be condoned and must be stopped.
…
Tang Hanlong asked, “[color=red]According to statistics, 75% of organs used in transplants in China come from prisoners of conscience.[/color] Has France adopted any policies to stop French citizens from going to China for organ transplants that use organs from those murdered by the Chinese Communist Party?”
Current French Minister of Justice Pascal Clement replied, “France cannot tolerate such human organ trafficking with China or any other country even for a second. This must be completely prohibited and is definitely repulsive and shocking.” [/quote]
Oh wait. That’s from Epoch Times, one of the outlawed sources of information! So sorry. So sorry.
How would everyone feel if the USA, which imprisons even more people than China, started using non-consensual organ “donations” (Yeah, that’s what they’ve always been called - donations.) from its prisoner stream? Of course, there’d have to be a rise in executions, but that shouldn’t be too hard to swing politically in most of the US.
The non-consensual use of prisoner organs is explicitly out-lawed in China. That’s a statement of fact, and doesn’t require any Sherlock Holmes-esque deductive magic. Of course, I don’t think I’m revealing any secrets when I say that rule of law is a fuzzy concept in China… but it’s ridiculous to claim that this is a state-sponsored mission.
The comparison with the “old” holocaust makes little sense. During WW2, perhaps you didn’t notice, large areas of Nazi Germany + occupied territories were off-limits to everyone but German military forces.
What areas of China today are similarly off-limits? Other than Tibet (where a special entry visa is required), what keeps you from buying a bicycle and biking to any corner of China? These FLG prisoners must be kept relatively close to major urban centers in order to enable the transplants; where are the holding camps? How are they transported? As others have mentioned, where do the doctors engaged in this practice live?
I’m biased. I have a cousin who happens to work as a kidney transplant surgeon in a Nanjing hospital. My (Taiwanese-American) wife is currently attending a US medical school, and spent a summer working in the primary Jiangsu provincial hospital last year, including a rotation through their transplant ward. She helped setup a clinical shadowing agreement with her US school, and now 5-10 students will be spending their summers learning from Chinese doctors. She didn’t see any concentration camps or shadowy armed guards while she was there.
In terms of the transcripts that you listed… well, I’d want to read and hear the original phone conversations to understand what exactly what was said. For some reason, the terms “Falun gung practictioners” almost always appears in the context of helpful parentheses.
That’s it for now; I’m going to go eat some (Falun Gong practictioenrs).
Even you have to admit the Epoch Times is hardly an objective news source. The problem is not that it is banned. The problem is that the Epoch Times is a well-known mouthpiece for the Falun Gong. Has this story been covered by any credible news agencies?
cctang’s post was very informative, raised some good questions. This whole Falun Gong holocaust story is becoming less and less credible.
Some of these alleged phone conversations crack me up.
M: Do you have Falun Gong [organ] suppliers? …
Mr. Li: We used to have, yes.
M: … what about now?
Mr. Li: … Yes.
Oh, and this one:
M: Is there the kind of organs that come from Falun Gong? I heard that they are very good.
Doctor: All of ours are those types.
Bawahahaahahahahahaha.
The perspective customer could’ve asked whether the organs come with chrome lining, and the doctor would’ve probably replied yes. No serious investigation would offer these snippets of unrecorded conversation as “evidence”. And for that matter, unless this conversation was held in Chinese, it’s value is especially questionable.
[quote=“gao_bo_han”]dearpeter,
Even you have to admit the Epoch Times is hardly an objective news source. The problem is not that it is banned. The problem is that the Epoch Times is a well-known mouthpiece for the Falun Gong. Has this story been covered by any credible news agencies?
cctang’s post was very informative, raised some good questions. This whole Falun Gong holocaust story is becoming less and less credible.[/quote]GBH -
As has been clearly shown, this PRC organ harvesting is being reported by many more sources than just Epoch Times. Reported in the Canadian press/news and brought up in their parliament or whatever they have. So its not only in FLG news sources.
The credibility of this story has increased in credibility rather than lessened.
Unless thats how one wishes to spinn it.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“gao_bo_han”]dearpeter,
Even you have to admit the Epoch Times is hardly an objective news source. The problem is not that it is banned. The problem is that the Epoch Times is a well-known mouthpiece for the Falun Gong. Has this story been covered by any credible news agencies?
cctang’s post was very informative, raised some good questions. This whole Falun Gong holocaust story is becoming less and less credible.[/quote]GBH -
As has been clearly shown, this PRC organ harvesting is being reported by many more sources than just Epoch Times. Reported in the Canadian press/news and brought up in their parliament or whatever they have. So its not only in FLG news sources.
The credibility of this story has increased in credibility rather than lessened.
Unless thats how one wishes to spinn it.[/quote]
You accusing me of spinning the story TC? I’m one of the few people on here who has given it any credence at all, but Juba and cctang have made some strong points that I have not yet seen adequately addressed. Add to that a complete lack of hard evidence and you’ve got yourself a good brew of skepticism. Care for a nip?
GBH -
I will endeavor to believe that you seek the truth that might be found in the middle ground.
Re:FLG Organ Harvesting and the use of FLG members and convicts for such activity. At this point, with the increased scrutiny and responses from the variety of gov’t and private sources, I think, IMO, it has been shown to be a reality.
Now as to what will come of this, that remains to be seen. For all to many gov’t’s and trade groups, this is something they can easily deem worthy of turning a blind eye towards.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]GBH -
I will endeavor to believe that you seek the truth that might be found in the middle ground.
Re:FLG Organ Harvesting and the use of FLG members and convicts for such activity. At this point, with the increased scrutiny and responses from the variety of gov’t and private sources, I think, IMO, it has been shown to be a reality.
[/quote]
You use the word “sources”, suggesting you believe there is more than one involved here.
I for one only see a single new primary source, other than the Epoch Times: investigation.go.saveinter.net/
The document is easy enough to digest, and right available on that website. Read the “sources” involved for yourself. Heck, even Rumsfeld might’ve found this information a little flimsy.
[quote=“cctang”]The non-consensual use of prisoner organs is explicitly out-lawed in China… but it’s ridiculous to claim that this is a state-sponsored mission.
The comparison with the “old” holocaust makes little sense. During WW2, perhaps you didn’t notice, large areas of Nazi Germany + occupied territories were off-limits to everyone but German military forces.[/quote]
I was hoping would join in this thread cc. I definitely trust your interest in truth over trendiness.
About the Holocaust reference, if the claims stated in the Kilgour Report (that’s what I think I’ll call it) are true, I think this comparison is a natural one. Yes it’s premature now. I am prone to sensationalizing things to draw attention to them. I am no statesman, although Kilgour is. He would not label things a new Holocaust just yet I think, but he did raise the issue of the Holocaust in the beginning of the report in order to point out that sometimes things happen that are very difficult to believe at all, knowing as we do that most everyone is basically good most of the time. If there is one thing the Nazi legacy should teach us it is that groups of people operating under procedures passed down lines of authority are capable of far more evil than all but the most crazed one-in-a-million psychotic. The Stanford prisoner experiments are also a case in point here.
I’m not so sure one could gain entry to every wing of every prison to look for pools of unregistered prisoners. It is also possible these prisoners are kept in unexpected locations. This side of the question is a black box right now. As the report explains, it is quite futile to begin a conclusive quest from this angle due to the nature of the alleged crime. He is moved by the overall numbers of transplants, which he argues cannot be explained without invoking the alleged pool of unregistered FLG prisoners. To argue against the report’s conclusions, I suspect this is also the best approach - to explain how it is that so many organs are available. Kilgour claims very few in China donate their organs, therefore the organs must come from a secret source. I would like to hear your opinion on that cc. (I really hope you read the entire report; it doesn’t take too much time to do so.)
This of course doesn’t mean anything. Very few Germans knew the Holocaust was happening even at its height. While more were aware of Jews and undesirables being transported, few would have visualized Hitler’s ‘final solution.’
I believe they are posted online. There are lots of links in the report.
Just checked. No, they aren’t. Nor is there any indication of who the “investigators” are who made these phone inquiries. Actually, the homepage for the report is quite a piece of crap. There is no discussion board.
Anyway, I would love to hear your overall evaluation, cc, after you have read the whole report. Specifically, can you address Kilgour’s claims that the FLG hypothesis is necessary to explain the current level of organ transplants in China?
And does anybody out there have any info on telephone investigations? I think this is definitely a weak spot in the report even as it is presented by Kilgour as a strong spot; there is no info I can see as to whether trustworthy people observed these investigative calls. If the calls are merely recordings provided by FLG or other activists, this is unacceptable. Such recording could be easily faked. My first instinct is to think that Kilgour wouldn’t allow himself to be duped in this way, but you never know. I will email him and offer to build him a more interactive Website with a BBS to allow some proper discourse.
I basically lied earlier in this thread saying the calls were monitored by authority figures. That was how I filed my memory. On second reading, the report only says the recordings were translated by competent individuals. I’ll go post an edit to my earlier post.
Here are the relevant paragraphs from the report (p.55)
[quote]The accuracy of the translations of the portions of them used in this report is attested
to by the certified translator, Mr. C. Y., a certified interpreter with the Government of
Ontario. He certified that he had listened to the recording of the conversations
referred to in this report and has read the transcripts in Chinese and the translated
English version of the conversations, and verifies that the transcripts are correct and
translations accurate. [color=blue]The original recordings of the calls remain available as well.[/color]
One of us met with two of the callers in Toronto on May 27th to discuss the routing,
timing, recording, accuracy of the translations from Mandarin to English and other
features of the calls.
[color=red]We conclude that the verbal admissions in the transcripts of interviews of investigators
can be trusted. There is no doubt in our minds that these interviews did take place
with the persons claimed to be interviewed at the time and place indicated and that
the transcripts accurately reflect what was said.[/color]
Moreover, the content of what was said can itself be believed. For one, when weighed
against the recent international uproar about alleged organ seizures as the 2008
Beijing Olympics approach, the admissions made at the various institutions are
contrary to the reputational interests of the government of China in attempting to
convince the international community that the widespread killing of Falun Gong
prisoners for their vital organs has not occurred.[/quote]
So far, I can’t figure out where the original recordings are made available. :s
The appendix to the report doesn’t offer much more than the main report as to who the investigators were, although there is a lot of additional transcription of conversations.
IMHO the investigators clearly did feed words into the mouths of the officials and doctors they spoke to, quite a lot of it along the lines of getting them to agree that FLG organs would be especially healthy.
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]GBH -
I will endeavor to believe that you seek the truth that might be found in the middle ground.
Re:FLG Organ Harvesting and the use of FLG members and convicts for such activity. At this point, with the increased scrutiny and responses from the variety of gov’t and private sources, I think, IMO, it has been shown to be a reality.
[/quote]
You use the word “sources”, suggesting you believe there is more than one involved here.
I for one only see a single new primary source, other than the Epoch Times: investigation.go.saveinter.net/[/quote]CCTang -
Try these -
There’s zero doubt in my mind that “more Canadians are going to China for organ transplants”. International medical tourism is a well-known fact. There are huge numbers of Westerners flooding to eastern Europe and southeast Asia for dentistry, organ transplants, and a whole number of similar services. There’s also no doubt that many Chinese babies are being adopted by Western families, either.
But the question is whether these are missions of mercy, a cold by-product of globalization, or a “new holocaust”. If you have any “new sources” that supports one of those interpretations, let us know.
I would concede, and I hope you’d agree, that it’s very hard to absolutely disprove anything in a country the size of China. Even if you and I were there, it’d take us years to visit even a small % of the nation’s prisons. Someone may claim that there’s a small population of flying pigs in China; how could we possibly go about disproving such a fact?
So, we’re left with two fundamental sets of facts courtesy of the research at hand:
there are apparently numerous and growing # of transplants in China.
there are text transcripts of conversations/admissions from doctors.
(We’re given a long list of other allegations in the report that are either laughable or irrelevant. For example, the second-hand anecdote that a PLA army surgeon had brought 8 kidneys to the hospital for the candidate to be tested against… removing a kidney takes time from busy, skilled professionals. Who actually removes the kidney in order to check for compatibility? If the PLA was executing FLG for their organs, wouldn’t you confirm compatibility before removing their kidneys?)
Let’s discuss the two primary allegations:
growing number of transplants (and the related question of where these organs are coming from). I don’t have any statistics to refute what the research team found, so we can just accept that the number of donations are growing rapidly.
The question is… so what? I think we’re supposed to assume that there’s something sinister in the origin of these organs. Why? Seems to me there are plenty of less-sinister sources for these organs.
China remains a third-world, developing nation. Would it surprise you at all if it turned out prisoners (or their families) were being paid some pittance for their organs by doctors for their agreement? Or, maybe money isn’t offered; prisoners are told that they owe a debt to society, and this is a way of repaying that debt. What part of that is unlikely or difficult to believe?
Most believe there are 5000+ executions in China every year, easily accounting for many of the more exotic transplants. And kidney transplants don’t even need to come from an executed prisoner; seems to me someone in prison on a life sentence can be easily swayed when told their families will receive a few thousand yuan in exchange for a kidney.
the second question are the phone call transcripts. You yourself read more carefully than I, so now we know the “investigators” were essentially handed these printed pages and told these were logs of actual calls.
How many times did the doctors use the term “Falun Gong” in these calls, and how many times did the Western organ-seeker use the term? How do we know the doctor understand the question? If you put a nervous, barely English-literate doctor from Guangxi on the phone… I assure you the typical Canadian pronounciation of the term ‘falun gong’ sounds nothing like Chinese. Reading the transcripts again, all I can do is shake my head at the idea that these are the representatives of some large, evil conspiracy.
The gentlemen that generated this report are right about one thing: trying to prove their allegation is not an easy or trivial task. The fact that they appear to be “earnest” in admitting this doesn’t mean we can lower that burden. They are using third-hand, unsubstantiated reports blended in with a strong mixture of wishful thinking; they have proven next to nothing.
Did the Google to see how publicity for the Kilgour report Mark II was doing. It’s not exactly selling newspapers to say the least.
Here was one decent article:
[quote]Overseas organs
Michelle Lang, The Calgary Herald
Published: Thursday, March 08, 2007
CALGARY — A Calgary business is under fire for helping North Americans who need new organs acquire livers and lungs from China, with critics claiming the country executes prisoners to supply a burgeoning transplant industry.
Calgary-based Overseas Medical Services assists patients with purchasing organ transplants for $120,000 US, facilitating four transplant surgeries recently for Americans who faced lengthy wait lists at home. Several Canadian patients have also expressed interest in the service.
Aruna Thurairajan, owner of Overseas Medical Services, and her clients insist the Chinese organs come from consenting donors.
“The people who talk about the ethical problems aren’t the ones walking in the shoes of the patient,” said Thurairajan, a former Sri Lankan medical administrator. “There’s no reason we should stop this. We should promote it,” she added.
But human rights advocates say Ottawa and the provinces should enact laws stopping Canadians from participating in the international organ trade, arguing the industry has troubling practices.
In January, [color=red]Winnipeg lawyer David Matas and former Liberal MP David Kilgour[/color] released a report alleging China is harvesting organs taken without consent from executed prisoners, mainly Falun Gong practitioners.
“We should be prohibiting this sort of traffic,” said Matas in an interview from Dublin, where he was presenting results of his report. “We need our laws to be extraterritorial so they apply when the transplant is abroad.”
Matas’ report implicates the Chinese military in the harvesting of the organs. It also claimed that some Canadians had travelled to China to purchase organs.
Groups like Human Rights Watch have also voiced concerns over the Chinese transplant industry. Some family members of executed prisoners have said they didn’t give consent to donate their organs, according to the New York-based advocacy group.
China denies the allegations. [color=red]A recent statement from the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa said Matas’ report is based on rumours, calling it “biased and groundless.”
[/color] Story continues a bit longer here.[/quote]
So who did they give better play too? Kilgour is a “former MP.” Hmmn. That doesn’t sound very important, does it? Probably just a backbencher.
And with such a logically-rooted denial from China, I guess there is no need for the world media to take this story any further. And indeed, they haven’t. Nineteen articles on Google News in the past month, and 243 for all time. The search term was: “David Kilgour organ*”
Really? Since when in the history of the CCP has it been so willing to put the law above the party? I hear murder is outlawed in China too, but “the party” has seems to have done its share of that over the years. I find it difficult to accept your first sentence there as a convincing argument, no offense. But then again, maybe you’re right. After all, I’m sure the concept of “consent” in Chinese prison, labor, and concentration camps is equally “fuzzy”.