Expat family: Shanghai vs Taiwan?

Hi all,

I currently live in US and am considering an expat opportunity in Asia… either Shanghai or Taiwan. Can anyone help me to compare pros and cons of the two places?

For reference: We have lived in Singapore in late 90s. So, if you can, any comparison to Singapore will be helpful as well. Also, now we have two kids (3yrs and 6mths), so family living, medical support, education, domestic help etc. have become important.

I have seen some old threads comparing the two cities, but those comments are several years old and given the rapid change in Shanghai and evolving political and economic landscape in Asia, I thought it will be helpful to get fresher perspective.

Any insights/perspective will be highly appreciated.

Regards.

I’ve lived in each of the “Greater China Cities”. Each has their good points and failing.

Were I forced to rank them, I would rank Taipei as 1st in quality of life, followed by Shanghai, with HKG in last place. I’ve got 1 kids aged 9 & 10.

Shanghai now is much easier to deal with than it was in the late 90’s - that city barely exists now. The quality of housing is much better than before and while rents are rising, they are still very cheap. Schools are good and now not quite so hard to get a place.

However, for me, Taipei still comes out ahead. The reasons I would put Taipei ahead is the access to nature, the overall convenience and the fact that in general, what you see is what you get. The quality of TAS and TES are very high and by no means 2nd to the schools in Shanghai. It really is a very livable city once you get past the outward appearance. The food is very good and you’ll not shart every time you eat the local food as in China.

Same as Elegua.
Although I haven’t lived in the other cities mentioned, I have travelled to HK more than twenty times over the years, and brief visits are the best ones. I have friends there and even though I got shown to the best places for food and sights, I can’t say that any experience made me want to live there. It’s too small, there are too many tourists, it doesn’t feel whole, too conservative.
On the other hand, its much better put together than Taipei, with much less stress and a stronger sense of logic and reasonableness. I perish the thought of having to live there though. I have spoken to expats there who have lived here in Taipei and they seem to agree that Taipei is the better place for the white European expat.

Shanghai is…er…hard to explain really. There’s some of everything there, but a lot of programmed people, with programmed responses, ideas and opinions. I would like Shanghai more if I didn’t have to hear anyone talk, it drove me mad, even for the very short time I was there a couple of years ago. It’s messy and still developing, and so there is no general standard of anything. My ex girlfriend has lived there for many years now and the things she complains about, most people would never have imagined. Stamps being stolen off her mail, so it rarely gets out of the country, forged medication which can make you sick or kill you, corruption to the highest degree, and some of the most terrible standards probably anywhere else in the world.
Shanghai for Taiwanese men however seems to be a paradise, with gambling, girls, and up until recently lots of money to be made.
Its interesting in terms of development and you can see the place improving dramatically day by day, but the developments seem disassociated with the culture, as almost all of them are powered by foreigners.
The worst experience I’ve ever had in my life by the way was taking my friend to Shanghai’s top hospital. I’m not going to even bother describing it, but trust me, you would think when stepping in the door with a hemorrhaging neck wound you might want to pack your bags and head off to sunny Congo.

Taipei is by far the best place out of the former two with good hospitals, reasonable convenience regarding day to day living, excluding the bureaucracy and traffic. Taipei offers reasonable work opportunities and wages, but they aren’t what they were. Taiwan overall is a much easier place to navigate as a foreigner and be welcome any place you go. It’s not as well laid out as HK, but it makes do with what it has. Food is cheap and it won’t kill you, so better than China, and cheaper than HK. Rents are falling now, so haggle and get good deals. Education is crap though compared to HK and China’s best, and that’s coming from many professors and my wife who know an awful lot about Taiwan’s problems and failings in this area. Beaches are polluted most of the year round, but are at least tidied up a bit during tourist season.

I can’t rate any of these places as great places to live, but I do reckon generally, whities such as myself are probably going to be better off here in Taiwan overall.

If you have money though, then go to Shanghai. Far better housing, cheaper labor, better foreign schools, more foreign imports. Apparently the European school there is amazing and so is the housing located near by it. I haven’t seen it myself, but my wife came back recently and was saying how the houses were the best she had ever seen in the world. And she’s a very traveled person. You do have to live in walled communities however, to keep the poor people out. Not as necessary in Taiwan, unless you happen to go to Dazhi then you will well to do apartments with walls, razor wire and security cameras.

Singapore is much more civilized than Taiwan though, and rather a lot cleaner. Talk about opposites really. I didn’t like Singapore when I was there as it seemed a bit too much Sim City like for me, but in terms of development and standards, Taiwan pales by comparison.

I just spent a year in Shanghai after 2 in Taipei.

Taipei people are much more friendly and notice that you are alive
Shanghai has the buzz and there is a lot more to do
Beer is equally expensive
Housing can be had cheaply in both cities
Both cities have plenty for people to do
You will be happier driving in Taipei than Shanghai unless you can afford a driver
Both cities are easier lifestyles than HK but neither is as soft as Singapore which is ludicrously easy
Chinese language skills help a lot in both cities but IMHO you will make more local friends in Taiwan than Shanghai full stop

We love both cities and my wife has opened a shop in Shanghai so that she has an excuse to go back regularly. Being that she is Taiwanese we have a lot of chances to go back to Taiwan aswell.

Neither city will be a bad choice for you if you are prepared to immerse yourself and soak up the idiosyncracies.

Good luck

Elegua, sulavaca and Edgar,

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. There are two specific aspects that I would also like to confirm:

a) As I understand, getting full-time domestic help is very easy and cheap (~USD200-300) in Shanghai but not so in Taipei. It appears in Taipei they cast much more (close to USD800/month after including the govt levy) and only CEOs and GMs of medium to large companies are allowed to have them. How true is that… especially the point about elgibility to hire a maid?

b) I understand that in Shanghai owning a car pretty much means that one has to hire a driver as well because of the traffic situation. How is it in Taipei? How does the cost of owning a car compare in two cities (taking into account the need for driver in Shanghai as well as other govt duties, insurance etc.)?

Thanks.

Maids and hookers and people in general are cheaper in North Korea I’ve read. The problem is that people in China are too free now, it pushes up labour costs. Taiwan is even worse :wink:

Maids in Shanghai are about US$250 or so a month. Ours came 4-5 times a week but not full time for that.

We had a lady come twice a week in Taiwan. She was local and did it for cash but I don’t remember what we paid. It was affordable. (just checked 1500NT$ each time)

I think the CEO/GM thing is more of a preconception than a rule. You need to have a sizeable income to justify a foreign maid from memory but I think we qualified, just couldn’t be arsed with the red tape. In all honesty you could probably get a local to do the job for a reasonable salary as average incomes in Taiwan are not that high.

Car wise it isn’t expensive by European standards to buy and run a car in Taipei. In Shanghai cars are heavily taxed and whilst you can drive in theory it is not encouraged by any of the large internationals and again a driver is relatively cheap. I think about US$4-500 a month for full time or you could just hire a limo service as and when needed. Taxis are also plentiful and cheap in both cities.

[quote=“gng”]Elegua, sulavaca and Edgar,

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. There are two specific aspects that I would also like to confirm:

a) As I understand, getting full-time domestic help is very easy and cheap (~USD200-300) in Shanghai but not so in Taipei. It appears in Taipei they cast much more (close to USD800/month after including the govt levy) and only CEOs and GMs of medium to large companies are allowed to have them. How true is that… especially the point about elgibility to hire a maid?

b) I understand that in Shanghai owning a car pretty much means that one has to hire a driver as well because of the traffic situation. How is it in Taipei? How does the cost of owning a car compare in two cities (taking into account the need for driver in Shanghai as well as other govt duties, insurance etc.)?

Thanks.[/quote]

There is cheap and there is cheap. Taiwan while most expensive, is probably the most exploitive of foreign labor. Help costs more, but the workers make less due to the arrangement of the employment agencies. That said our best aiyi was in Taiwan.

Hong Kong, if you actually follow the law, is pretty fair to the helpers. However, the key word is follow the law.

China is about what you said in terms of cost, but you need to be a bit more careful with the screening. I would not have a live-in aiyi in China.

A good driver with a decent GL-8 is about 14k RMB a month with driver & gas. If you rack-up a lot of OT and mileage, it can go as high as 18k. You don’t want to drive here everyday. Many foreigners do drive, but if you’ve seen the outcome of even a fender-bender, you’ll stop. Taiwan you can drive yourself.

Yeah…you should see how cheap they come in China.

Sulavaca, you give a pretty accurate description of Shanghai, but there’s a few things I see slightly differently myself, having lived there also.

[quote=“sulavaca”]Although I haven’t lived in the other cities mentioned, I have travelled to HK more than twenty times over the years, and brief visits are the best ones. I have friends there and even though I got shown to the best places for food and sights, I can’t say that any experience made me want to live there. It’s too small, there are too many tourists, it doesn’t feel whole, too conservative.
On the other hand, its much better put together than Taipei, with much less stress and a stronger sense of logic and reasonableness. [/quote]

I too haven’t lived in Hong Kong, but visited many times, and I have to say that I don’t feel it is put together better than Taipei is. It certainly doesn’t have less stress: the people in Hong Kong seem stressed all the time, which reflects in a general curtness which sometimes continues into rudeness. Out of all cities mentioned, the population of Hong Kong is certainly the least friendly and accomodating one.

Again, I am unsure about that. I think Taipei is very well laid out, although I don’t know if you’re talking about infrastructure, strictly. Surely Taipei is much easier to get around, what with the main roads crossing the entire city, divided up into north and south blocks and sub-sections, and numbered lanes off of these roads. Even when I just arrived here, I never got the feeling that I had no clue in which part of town I was. Hong Kong and especially the Kowloon part are different.

For foreign imports, surely Singapore has to be the best, but Taipei is a close second, above Shanghai and Hong Kong even, if you ask me. Taiwanese are more westernized in their daily habits; for example, you’re not very likely to see someone in Shanghai take breakfast with buttered toast & coffee. The supermarkets in Taipei also stock western foodstuffs more commonly.

You don’t need to be qualified to hire a Taiwanese maid, only if you wish to hire a foreign maid.

To run a car a typical breakdown:

  1. Used large sized family saloon 5 years old in good condition around 250,000
  2. Basic 3rd party Insurance (which I don’t recommend) and tax for 1 year around 20,000
  3. Rented parking space in and around Taipei city 4~6 thousand per month if required.
  4. Fuel will obviously depend, but average running around city, not commuting may require a budget of 2,000 per month. Distances here are reasonably short.

Servicing may be done with minimal expense assuming you purchase the right car in the first place. I can hook you up with some cars for viewing and inspecting if need be.I can also hook you up with a service centre if need be too. actaiwan.com/ Or you can PM me directly.

Visited Shanghai several times, lived in both Hong Kong and Taipei several years. The real difference between these cities are the people you will meet. If that is important to you, I would certainly recommend Taipei, where foreigners are welcome and - other than in HK and Shanghai - where you will meet friendly, helpful and flexible people.

Thank you all for your insights. As some of you may have noticed, I posted similar question on Shanghai Expat forum as well and received very similar feedback.

After all, I will most likely be moving to Taipei early next year (working through package negotiation, logistics and immigration stuff now).

I look forward to be part of the community.