Experience, CELTAs and DELTAs

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
1

So.

I’ve been working in corporate training here for four years (before that I taught kids and adults at Kojen, before that I taught immigrants in the USA, and before that I was a literacy tutor in inner city schools (I also spent a year in China “teaching” but it was of the ‘teacher, game!’ variety so it hardly counts).

I do want to continue in teaching / corporate training as a career, and while I’d stay in Taiwan for awhile longer, I’ll eventually want to move elsewhere (including possibly teaching back home or in Europe) and do want to be qualified for higher-level jobs. I can’t go much farther on experience alone, and while my job is amazing and about as far as you can get from a buxiban while still teaching.

So…it’s certification time. I didn’t do a CELTA at the beginning because, at the time, it was just something fun to do for a few years and I could get hired without one. That leaves me as an experienced, but completely uncertified, teacher. I’ve received solid advice that a DELTA would better serve my needs, or even an MA in Applied Linguistics. A DELTA, regardless, is a good place to start.

Except. Except! Haha. Most places I’ve looked at require a CELTA and experience as a pre-requisite. I can’t find a school that states openly that you need only experience to join their DELTA Module 1 course.

I find it hard to swallow that I might have to do the CELTA first, after all these years of experience.

So…should I really be looking at doing the CELTA despite not being “pre-service”, or do I stand a chance at finding (and passing) a DELTA program that will accept me without a CELTA?

My husband and I are both fine with doing this outside of Taiwan, like a “learning vacation”, and if CELTA weren’t a pre-req that we don’t have, we could’ve done it near home in New York.

Advice appreciated!

2

Yes, I think most DELTA provider schools require a CELTA. I think it is the same with the distance DELTA. You say you and your husband plan to teach outside of Taiwan one day, so you should seriously consider doing a CELTA. Also, you say that you have a lot of experience so the CELTA may be worthless, but when I did mine over 10 yrs ago there were trainees on the course who had bags of experience (PGCEs) and found the course challenging in parts. Having said that, the DELTA is a lot more challenging. I did the intensive course at IH (International House) in Spain, and although it hasn’t helped me a great deal financially teaching here in Taiwan, it has definitely helped my teaching.

3

If you want to teach for a good few years more, I would go for the MA Applied Linguistics or TESOL. It will open up many more opportunities.

You need a CELTA (plus some experience post-CELTA if I can remember) before taking the DELTA. The CELTA is worthwhile if you are teaching more short-term, but if you are looking at teaching long-term as a career than I wouldn’t even question not doing the MA. You will remain stagnant otherwise, and in years to come I don’t think that the CELTA alone with a degree and experience will cut it anymore in most places.

4

I have 25 years of experience and I’m going to do the CELTA in Chiangmai Thailand in February. It only costs 1440usd plus your plane ticket and accommodation.

People tell me it will be intense, even with my experience. I’m looking forward to it. It is the minimum standard for teaching in Australia. I’ve already made a long career out of teaching English, but I don’t mind doing it if it is necessary. I think the advice to do an Masters in Applied Linguistics if you have the time and inclination is better though. I also did years in ESL publishing without a qualification.

5

For me I’m skipping the CELTA/DELTA route and will instead go back and get teaching degree in two more years. ESL is fun imo but for me it’s not a long-term thing. Having a teaching degree (math because I have an Engineering bachelors) will be a much better route since it qualifies me to teach in international schools that are found in almost every country in the world.

6

Indiana - I wouldn’t JUST do the CELTA. I’d do the CELTA and then take a break before moving quickly to the DELTA.

I’d love to do an MA…problem is I genuinely can’t afford it. I’m American which means that the cost of schooling is ridiculously high, and I’m already in debt from undergrad (and I did undergrad with a scholarship, some parental help and a job!). I’m also not willing to spend several years being dirt poor again, now that I make a decent living - and yes, although my salary in Taiwan is quite good, it’s not enough to reasonably save up for grad school tuition in the USA. I can’t stand the instruction methods in Taiwanese institutions so doing one here is out. My husband was born in Canada and technically a dual American/Canadian citizen; if I can get Canadian tuition rates I might do it there, but I’m not sure yet if that’s possible or if I’d also need to gain full citizenship first.

For the time being then, an MA is out. Unless I discover a Magical Money Tree or can get Canadian tuition rates at a university there.

If I do the DELTA first, the plan would be to find a school that would accept the modules as credits toward an MA in Applied Linguistics. Several schools in the UK do this, though it would be nice to find one in Canada; if I live there with my husband long enough, I can gain Canadian citizenship and going to school there would give us a reason to do so.

Abacus - I’m actually only interested in teaching languages or corporate training. I have a degree in International Affairs and technically could teach History, Geography and Social Studies from my knowledge base for that degree, but I don’t want to. I love languages (and do speak Chinese, though I could stand to work on my writing) and have no desire to teach in a junior high or high school, which are the only places I could get a job teaching something that’s not a language or some sort of corporate training; I’ve also got mad presentation skills and do teach them, which is how I make most of my money in Taiwan.

Fox - that’s just it. For a certification I’m not sure I really need, $1,440 USD is quite a lot. I’m willing to pay whatever I need to for a DELTA, but the extra $1,400 or so for a CELTA kind of burns. I don’t mind putting in the time, though the plane fare, living expenses, cat sitter, tuition and unpaid leave will come to quite a large sum. Of course, I’ll do it if I have to, but…well. Hope you see where I’m coming from there. (We’re looking at doing it in Istanbul, btw).

7

I’m more or less just pointing out that a CELTA opens a few doors but they are more of the same as what Taiwan offers (just a few different countries). A DELTA might open some doors that you want from the sounds of it but it sounds like what you really have to get is a MATESOL that was recommended. This gets you into the university jobs. Maybe you don’t do it right away but it’s kind of the same situation as mine. The CELTA is quite expensive. $1440 is just the tip of the iceberg. The price can double when you include airfare, lodging, food and other expenses. I have no doubt that the CELTA (and DELTA) would help myself (and you) become a better teacher but if I’m going to invest that kind of money I’m going to wait a little longer and get something that will actually open the doors that I want opened.

8

Hmmm…except waiting a little longer isn’t going to make it better:

Waiting another year isn’t going to make the money I don’t have for graduate school suddenly appear, and I’m not willing to wait several (I’m already 30). A CELTA is expensive, as is a DELTA, but the two combined plus living expenses while we get them still wouldn’t come to the cost of a year of graduate school + living costs for an American. Of course, there are scholarships and fellowships, but those are dwindling, don’t pay full costs most of the time, and I can’t stomach any more loans.

It’s not that I don’t want to get an MA. It’s that a DELTA is a goal I can reasonably accomplish in the next two years, and getting an MA seems like a financial horror. We’ve just gotten on our feet financially, to a comfortable place in life, and the thought of returning to cardboard box = coffee table upon which we perch our bowls of ramen…ugh.

I do appreciate the feedback that I’d actually learn something if I did a CELTA (I can guarantee, abacus, that airfare alone will double the cost if we go to Istanbul…living expenses will triple it, especially as being a married couple means no shared hostel rooms with strangers). Paying to get a certification that I feel I’ve already earned in experience is grating, but paying to get something that I’ll actually learn from is something I can accept. I’m not concerned about it raising or lowering my wages now; I’m concerned about it as a stepping stone to getting where I want to go - a stepping stone that’s within reach, unlike a costly graduate program.

9

There’s also the added fun fact that every program I’ve looked at for Applied Linguistics requires undergraduate courses in syntax, morphology and phonology that I haven’t taken. I did take Linguistics courses in undergrad despite it not being my major, but just the general course and Sociolinguistics, which I was awarded for independent research. Taking those pre-requisites means even more expense.

10

It’s not the time or inclination. It’s the money, pure and simple. I don’t have it.

11

Channamasala, I am American too and would never even dream of schooling in the States for a Masters, PhD or anything else because of the time and money involved. I did my Masters in Australia full time in one year with my husband and we got straight back to work after that.

Tuition for the full year cost us each $12,000 through Griffith University (Brisbane). You could consider doing something like this via distance (they do a distance program in App. Ling. as well) and pay it off as you go. That way it wouldn’t be so financially taxing. Also, Griffith doesn’t have the course requirements that you stated previously, just a few years of documented teaching experience.

I believe that you need to have documented proof of teaching adults for a certain number of years post-CELTA (or post teaching cert) to get onto a DELTA. It just doesn’t make sense to me to spend the time and $$$ doing both of those certs when a Masters would get you further.

Ok, maybe you don’t have the cash now and don’t want to go into debt, but consider the fact that you could potentially make a lot more money with an MA that would make it worth your while. To give you an example, hubby and I immediately got jobs in the UAE when we finished at Griffith each making $72,000 a year (that’s including our yearly bonus) which is tax free and we also get flights home every year, free housing, medical, etc. and they gave us $8000 for furniture when we first arrived. Naturally, we are also offered overtime hours and summer classes if we want them, plus we are IELTS Examiners…so, we can up our salaries quite a bit if we want to. We well made up for paying out for the Masters in our first year of work here and now we are saving gobs.

That’s why I will always push people to go for it full hog, however they can do it. Even though other places may not pay like they do where we are, it’s still worth it financially to get the best quals you can as early on as you can to make the $$$ and start putting away a lot of savings. Even if you had to work on it slowly, say over three years, it is worth it.

12

Most schools I’ve contacted about the CELTA and DELTA say that with our experience, if we have a CELTA, they’ll accept that plus what we’ve done as good enough and will admit us to the DELTA program.

But anyway - that’d be what we’d do if I were planning to get an MA in England, where many schools will accept the DELTA as credits for up to 1/3 the requirements of the MA in question.

After talking with my husband (who is not sure he wants to do this as a career - I am sure), it makes more sense to get the CELTA first, because then we have a certificate that will help us get some sort of teaching job in a private center outside Taiwan (whatever country we end up in), and he’s more likely to work while I do my Master’s and work part-time. Without the CELTA at least, that work can’t be teaching in any Western country - though I did get a job teaching in the USA without one, that was a bit of a lark. I wouldn’t expect such good luck twice.

After the CELTA the plan is to come back to Taiwan while I apply for grad schools, because we have good jobs here and can save up some cash. It will then become very clear whether the best route is DELTA —> MA program that accepts DELTA credits ----> MA, or straight to MA if a program offers me enough to do it.

If he works and I study, it’s more financially feasible.

Because, Indiana, I don’t have $12,000 US (even though that is a lot cheaper than the USA). I don’t have money for living expenses during that time. Brisbane would require some sort of vehicle (we have a friend who lives there - she says you can’t get around without a car/scooter) which we can’t afford.

…and I don’t particularly want to do a distance program. I think I’d do much better with real classes and physical teacher presence, because I thrive on personal interaction (which, of course, is one reason why I feel cut out to teach for a living).

I’m not sure I’d make that much more with an MA, to be honest. However, it is true that to get any sort of job that’s better than what I have now, you are right, I will need one. (I don’t want to work in the UAE though). My job now is pretty good, and in Taiwan it’s something that I was lucky to get with no certification - they took me based on how well I teach without one. I won’t find an equal or better job with no qualifications. I work in corporate training, btw, so I work in various offices around Taipei and Xinzhu.

If we have CELTAs first, we can at least land some sort of teaching jobs wherever I end up studying, which will help pay my way. If I go straight to graduate school, I won’t have any avenues to teach part-time while doing it, and we’ll both be shunted back to stultifying office work. This would be fine for a few years, except that for me, the only flex-time grad-student friendly office work is administrative stuff, and…well, I’m not above doing it but I am so much more capable that it’d be quite sad to leave the classroom to take a job fetching coffee.

13

I should also note, I can’t do this in any country where my husband can’t also work (which is why a CELTA is something we need before we try it - he can at least teach in most countries with that)…that means Taiwan where we have jobs, Canada where he was born or the USA where we are citizens. Any other country we pick would have to be a place where he could work: not sure Australia will allow one non-Australian spouse to work while the other non-Aussie spouse studies.

Tai ke da has a program, but not sure how good it is.

14

You need a course that has x amount of supervised practicum. There are many courses but it is the practicum that counts in Australia.

15

Which is kind of disheartening (though we are not anticipating teaching in Australia) - I’ve taught company vice presidents, CEOs and general managers. I’ve taught people known to appear in the Business section of the newspaper. I’ve worked as a trainer at companies you’d be jealous to hear about…(sorry to brag but it IS true) so “oh, you need supervised practicum” feels so infantile to me. But…if I need it to get a teaching gig wherever I end up in grad school to make ends meet, then I need it. Sometimes you have to do things you don’t particularly want to do to get where you want to go.

The posts noting that no matter how well I teach now, a CELTA will still have challenging bits and make me even better are encouraging. I’m far happier to spend the time and money necessary if I’m going to be challenged and become a better instructor for it. Knowing that I can do something other than wait tables while studying makes it worth it. Knowing that if grad school doesn’t work out in the near future (I STILL can’t afford it, that hasn’t changed) that I can at least do the DELTA makes it worth it.

16

Experience doesn’t automatically mean that a teacher is a good teacher or can’t be improved. We can all improve, even after years of education,experience, and feedback from assessed teaching practice. Feedback is extremely worthwhile and can help a teacher improve a great deal…it is certainly not infantile.

Where I work, every few years we are observed while teaching and given constructive feedback. I have been teaching since 2000 and have a CELTA and a Masters that included an assessed teaching component, and I feel as though the feedback I have gotten from all of those who have observed me over the years, even now where I work, has always benefitted me.

17

Your husband can sponsor your application to get a permanent resident visa to immigrate to Canada. Since he is a Canadian citizen, he does not have to be in Canada during the application process, though he does have to show evidence he will return to Canada to live with you when you get the PR visa. Once you are a PR, you pay Canadian tuition rates. Applying for the PR visa takes less than a year through either the United States or Taiwan.

18

Ramkamhaeng University in Bkk offers affordable Masters programs in Education. You can choose either full time weekday courses, or the evenings/weekends program, which allow you to continue teaching at the same time. When I was in Bkk some of my colleagues were serious but unqualified teachers who were working in International schools, illegally, and were doing these courses part time to gain their teaching licences.
Of course, it doesn’t look so prestigious… but it does give you the legal paperwork, and along with Celta, Delta and experience…

19

channamasala,

I have heard of CELTA/DELTA, but I’m not sure what is is exactly. A kind of ESL certification, right?

I’m curious about who actually recognizes it, and where, and how much good it will actually do somebody. If it is a UK thing, then it might be much more useful in the EU.

I came to Taiwan (with a history B.A.) to learn Chinese originally, then spent three years teaching EFL at a several high schools-- first in Taipei and Keelung and then in the south. Then I taught adult classes at companies around the Taipei area for a couple of years. Did editing and proofreading on the side.

I looked into quite a few different options as far as some kind of certification, hoping to be able to do it while keeping a job in Taiwan. I may be wrong, but I don’t think there is any reputable institution (or company) operating in Taiwan (local or international) that offers any training/qualification that is worthwhile. There are a few that will take your money, run a few weekend seminars, and give you a Certificate of Seminar Completion with the letterhead of some university in the USA. To do a year-long course in Bangkok-- I wonder how beneficial that would be, in or outside of Thailand.

If I was married to a ROC citizen or had the “Permanent ARC”, I would still be in Taipei, because I was offered a number of pretty nice positions (including full-time at a Taipei-area university language center-- IF I didn’t need an ARC).

But after thinking about it a year or so, I finally registered and began an M.A. TESL program at the same university in USA were I studied history. I will finish in a couple of months. I might stay here in USA and look for work, or I could go back to Taiwan. Or China. Or Dubai. What I need to do first, however, is to find out more details about exactly what I can do with this degree in Taiwan.

From what I have heard, the language departments at even the middle-tier Taiwanese universities don’t even want to talk to you nowadays unless you have a PhD. Of course, they still want you to teach the required remedial English classes to bored teenagers, and they don’t care what field the PhD is in. They will hire a PhD in Medieval Hungarian Literature with no teaching experience over someone with a M.A.TESL who actually has relevant training. Which would be depressing.

I could be happy working in Taiwan again, if I can find steady work at a university (or university language center), insrtructing people who actually want to learn to communicate in English, and if I can work with other people who enjoy their work, and work for a school that takes the whole thing seriously. Just not sure yet how long it will take to decide if this is do-able or not.

john scott

20

[quote=“kaipakati”]Ramkamhaeng University in Bkk offers affordable Masters programs in Education. You can choose either full time weekday courses, or the evenings/weekends program, which allow you to continue teaching at the same time. When I was in Bkk some of my colleagues were serious but unqualified teachers who were working in International schools, illegally, and were doing these courses part time to gain their teaching licences.
Of course, it doesn’t look so prestigious… but it does give you the legal paperwork, and along with Celta, Delta and experience…[/quote]

Yeah, not so sure I want to spend that much time living in Bangkok…there’s the lack of nightlife for expat women, the fact that my side passion is studying Chinese - so if I’m going to leave an immersion environment to get my MA it’ll be to somewhere with a more prestigious MA program.

Anyway, no matter what I need the CELTA to teach while in grad school if I leave Taiwan, so we’re doing the CELTA in Istanbul in September (my family is Armenian from Turkey so we’re also going to take some time to trace my ancestral roots in Mousa Dagh).