Explaining confucianism (and why people do what they do)

Confucianism is invisible to most foreigners unless they know what to look for. It can be one of the biggest obstacles to living in Confucianist countries like Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, Korea or Japan. Unless a foreigner learns knows how the rules work, many of the things people in these countries do could make no sense, be frustration, or downright contradictory to western thoughts of common sense.

The five basic precepts for a “harmonious society” (read the PDF linked here) in a confucianist country are:

1. Ruler and subject
2. Father and son
3. Husband and wife
4. Oldest son and younger brothers
5. Elder and junior i[/i]

Essentially, those “lower” i[/i] in each rule and in order of rules from 1 to 5 are expected to concede, obey and give way to those who are “higher”. If one doesn’t, one is “disrupting the harmony” (or the “wa” as the Japanese would call it). The problem foreigners find, especially westerners, is that our meritocracy (respect is earned, not inherited) contradicts this; ability, education, knowledge, skill and other factors are less important in determining status in a confucianist country than are gender, position and age. The western concept that every person deserves the same respect, whether socially higher or lower, does not compute in the confucianist mind.

Taiwan and Japan are not as strict on adhering to these rules as are the other countries because Taiwan has heavily interacted with westerners for long periods of time (the Portuguese, the Dutch, the British) while Japan’s confucianism focuses on submitting to other people’s interests, rather than having them bend to one’s own will. It’s nowhere near as bad as living with the Koreans or mainland Chinese, but even so, westerners can experience problems when living and working here, so here’s a basic breakdown of what they mean:

1. Ruler and subject:

Those in authority expect total complicity and obedience from those below. Employers often expect employees to be on-call 24/7, to be available for things outside of work, to complete work on their own time and unpaid. As well, the concept of sharing information is seen as unnecessary; employers think it is perfectly acceptable to tell employees information at the last minute, or to change instructions or requirements without notice.

2. Father and son (or parent and child, if you don’t want to be sexist):

Children are expected to similarly obey and not talk back to their elders. However, this does not end when the child reaches adulthood. As long as there is an older generation, the “child” is expected to obey, even a 50 year old man with a 75 year old father. Often there can even be conflict within a family - a young generation is told one thing by the parents, then the grandparents may contradict it, and the child may lose no matter which person they obey because the other older person punishes him or her.

3. Husband and wife:

Taiwan is more egalitarian about gender than most Asian countries, but there is still some subtle sexism. Males are often valued more and given better treatment or more money and time spent on them. Count how many girls and how many boys there are in your school. In Korea, boys always outnumbered girls in classrooms; in all my own classes here in Taiwan, that is true as well. I would imagine it’s true for most who read this.

One big difference between Korea and Taiwan: men carry their own bags here, not expecting their wives to, and Taiwanese men on the MRT stand to let their wives/girlfriends sit down.

4. Oldest son and younger brothers:

Similar to rule 2, age makes a difference in how people relate. The younger child(ren) may be subjected to bullying or getting less and told to accept it. Again, Taiwan is more egalitarian so I rarely see it here.

5. Elder and junior (or, friend and friend):

The wording may suggest age is the main factor, but how “close” you are to a person plays a bigger role. Although generally all people will be met with friendliness by confucianists, if a choice has to be made about loyalty and defending others, those “closer” will be chosen, even if the choice conflicts with right and wrong or legality. A confucianist will defend someone within their family, their circle of friends, their workplace or their government, even if a crime is involved, because it is expected of them. This is one of the main reasons corruption is rampant in business and government - people “look the other way” when a “superior” is on the take.

It also applies when dealing with foreigners - they are not Taiwanese, so loyalty is always first to countrymen. This is not “racism” or xenophobia in the typical sense of disliking foreigners, merely people doing what is expected of them, following the rules.

What’s not said in the rules:

When the five rules are combined and personal knowledge is removed (i.e. the Taiwanese are interacting with total strangers) the effects become even more remarkable and noticeable. For example:

  • Drivers do not know each other, so whoever gets to a space first expects to go first. Some will even force their way in with their car, making the situation “give up or crash” to the other driver. This is also why drivers weave back and forth in lanes without concern for those behind them: the drivers behind are strangers, so the Taiwanese see no need to respect them.

  • People walking show no concern for those around them. This is why the Taiwanese will walk down the middle of a stairway, blocking the way for anyone else who may come along, or will walk five across and block a sidewalk, put their shopping cart in the middle of an escalator or block an aisle in a store. It even applies to standing and talking in doorways or to blocking the way in halls and on sidewalks: they don’t know those walking around them. You will even experience this on buses and the MRT - if you are facing a Taiwanese person, they will walk around you, but if your back is to them, they will bump into you from behind (even if there is sufficient room to go around you) because you are “not there”, your face is not visible.

  • Property is anonymous. This is why you will see spit on the floor inside buildings, cars dented in hit and run, litter dropped on the ground or put on people’s vehicles, or people sitting on the hoods of cars and seats of scooters and bicycles which are not their own, among other things. If the owner is not there, the confucianist sees no need to respect the property. There is no deliberate vandalism, it’s more carelessness and being unconcerned with the effects.

I want to make it clear: I am not inferring that this is deliberate arrogance or rudeness. Rather, I would characterize it as obliviousness, that confucianists only follow conventions on courtesy and politeness where it is expected by their own rules, and where they don’t have to show it, they don’t.

Westerners actually do the same thing, but in reverse: when we are with strangers or social “superiors”, we show more politeness than we would with close friends. When we are with people closest to us, we are most willing to drop formality and act with familiarity, and to the Taiwanese who you become friends with, speaking with familiarity and crudity as we do may be uncomfortable to them.

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Some people (usually wearing rose-tinted glasses or just off the boat) are not going to like what I’ve said, some are even going to call it racism. But do yourself a favour: be objective and watch what people do. With the exception of Taiwanese who have lived in western countries for significant lengths of time, these observations are generally true.

Hehe. Knowledge is power, eh? EH? :laughing:

Could you explain the British influence on Taiwan, please. I think I missed that in History class. (Unless you mean Buttercup’s influence, now that she is Almost A God.)

Well, it may be that that is indeed an accurate description and explanation, but it’s still a case of the tragedy of the commons in many respects. That’s obvious in cases like anonymous disregard for the environment, etc. However, with a little more thought, people would actually realise that a lack of transparency and flexibility actually hurts the family, company or country over all in the long term, especially in a globalised economy. The more I learn about Taiwanese/Chinese culture, the less inclined I would be to do business with them from outside Taiwan (and I’d be very reluctant to invest in the stock market here). There would be other opportunities.

That makes good sense, but can it be described in Westerner ideas so it is more understandable to those not so accepting of the idea that a total belief i.e. confusionism can influence an entire society?

Westerners have experience and can concieve that religions/philosophies impact a segment of society, and that different religions/philosphies impact different segements of society.

But the concept that one overall religion/philosphy influences every single small aspect of an entire society is difficult to explain.

[quote=“tango42”]That makes good sense, but can it be described in Westerner ideas so it is more understandable to those not so accepting of the idea that a total belief i.e. confusionism can influence an entire society?
[/quote]

Confusionism??? :ohreally:

[quote=“lemur”][quote=“tango42”]That makes good sense, but can it be described in Westerner ideas so it is more understandable to those not so accepting of the idea that a total belief i.e. confusionism can influence an entire society?
[/quote]

Confusionism??? :ohreally:[/quote]

He’s more correct than you might expect

Is there such a thing as a Confucianists Guide to Foreigners? It would be interesting to see how ‘they’ interpret ‘us’ and might give some insight into what it is that we do that they don’t.

I’m Confuced.

If they try to understand us and behave differently, and we try to understand them and behave differently, then it will be doubly-confusing, which isn’t really a word, and that is even more confusing.

If there is a guide to Confucianism for Foreigners, I hope it is in English, and not full of that Confucianism mumble-jumble that we don’t understand.

This analysis appears faulty. In a Confucian society education is in fact the single most important determinant of social status. In the past, even the most humble peasant could enter the scholar-gentry class if he could pass the requisite exams, and even the barbarians were thought capable of becoming civilized if they became educated in Confucianism.

In modern Taiwan Chen Shui-bian was able to become President, despite being the son of poor, illiterate peasant farmers because of his education. Parents put huge pressure of their children to perform well in tests and make huge sacrifices to send them abroad to study, as a high level of education confers social status.

I would also dispute your claim that Western societies are meritocracies, where respect is earned and not inherited. Family background and wealth is often a very important determinant of social status.

The OP is describing a traditional way of understanding how the ideal society should operate. It is by no means the only traditional value system out there, and many people explicity reject its validity. It’s a way of talking that does not necessarily translate into a way of acting. I think that this kind of cultural explanation obscures far more than it reveals. For example, Taiwan is a democracy. The first relation between ruler and ruled simply does not apply anymore, however much Lien Chan might wish that it did.

And you completely fail to mention other Confucian values such as Li (ritual), Yi (justice), Lian (integrity), and chi (moral conscience) that might deepen the caricature you have set up. Or the concept of ren (humaneness), which is probably the most interesting and core of Confucius’s teaching.

While I completely and violent disagree with him, you might find Daniel A. Bell’s China’s New Confucianism: Politics and Everyday Life in a Changing Society an interesting attempt to defend the relevance of Confucianism today. Like you though, his understanding of Confucianism is ahistorical and not grounded in any serious reading of the canonical Confucian works, either from the axial period or the lixue revival in the Song.

I don’t think Sleepyhead’s exposition was faulty: perhaps it was a simplification, and didn’t cover everything, but it was pretty darned good in my opinion. However, the point made about education is a valid one, and is one of the saving-grace “wild cards” in Chinese history. I have also seen nerds with 90+ averages in junior high school get respect from tough jocks, which was not my experience in Canada. Another point is that all people born and raised in a Confucian society will be influenced by it to some extent, whether or not they are traditionalists or very modern and open to new ideas. That’s true also of Western society: we are all influenced by the Greco-Roman / Classical / Christian mindset whether or not we even know it or like reading or hearing about them at all.

I did not read that as “I’m Confused.” I read it with a hard “c.” You’re rude.

I did not read that as “I’m Confused.” I read it with a hard “c.” You’re rude.[/quote]
Once again I have broken the Confucian rule against unintentionally offending someone.

[quote]Property is anonymous. This is why you will see spit on the floor inside buildings, cars dented in hit and run, litter dropped on the ground or put on people’s vehicles, or people sitting on the hoods of cars and seats of scooters and bicycles which are not their own, among other things. If the owner is not there, the confucianist sees no need to respect the property. There is no deliberate vandalism, it’s more carelessness and being unconcerned with the effects.
[/quote]

People who don’t respect other’s property and treat their environment like they are not part of it are stupid. Be nice to the people and things around you and you’ll create an environment you’ll enjoy living in. It’s so easy.

Confucianism needs an upgrade. Hope version 3987.1 comes out soon…

Confucianism needs an upgrade? Everything needs an upgrade!

By the way, thanks Sleepyhead. That was a good post. Actually, a lot of what you said I already knew - but had forgotten.

It’s a Gung Fu cliche but it’s true: knowing the path is not walking the path. Sometime we WGR can get too tied up in our own internal trip to really be alert enough to interpret what is going on around us. Thanks for the reminder!

A well-written post, sleepyhead.
However, I would argue that the factors you discuss are not all that invisible to newcomers. Though it can well be an obstacle to thus unfamiliar, it’s more a matter of being “generally true”. There are vast exceptions to every general rule.
The most important of which I would posit would be the massive & rapid industrial, technological, and mass media growth Taiwan experienced pretty much right through The Cold War. This has bent the alignment on the traditional Confucian influences, as has the historically different development of the region.

Confucianism :fume: Right behind maoism as one of the most damaging ideologies Asia has experienced. The root of female inequality in Japan and corruption in China, damnit why didn’t the Han go for Mohism. Still I am encouraged by hugely successful organizations such as Tzu Chi.