Eyewitness account of violence in Tibet - Guardian

guardian.co.uk/world/2008/ma … bet.china2

‘Oh my God, someone has a gun …’

* The Guardian,
* Saturday March 15 2008
* Article history

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This article appeared in the Guardian on Saturday March 15 2008 on p1 of the Top stories section. It was last updated at 01:15 on March 15 2008.

This is an eyewitness account of a foreign resident in Lhasa who took refuge in a hotel close to the centre of the Tibetan capital yesterday. The city was gripped by violence after protesters and police clashed

"Oh my God. Oh no. That’s crazy. One hundred people are trying to stone one man. A man was trying to cross the street with his motorcycle - they were trying to stone him but it’s so crowded I can’t see whether they got him or not.

"We came out for a walk about at about five today. I knew something was happening because there were a lot of people on the street. We were on Sera Street, which goes to the [Klukang] monastery. It sounds like the noise came from there; it sounds like at first they had been fighting in the temple.

"We saw people running and people in this hotel told us to get in quickly as the crowd was coming. They seem OK here, maybe the owner is Tibetan. All the other hotels have smashed windows.

"The residents are very angry. They are throwing stones at anyone who is Han [Chinese] or from other minorities like the Hui, who are Muslims. It seems like it’s ethnic - like they want to kill anyone not Tibetan.

"I would say it’s a riot here but I think in the centre it’s worse. There’s a lot of smoke - we can see it where there have been burnings. I heard people saying the authorities were firing, using guns. We don’t know.

Here we have seen people trying to stone anyone they can - Han and other minorities, not foreigners. The Tibetans had stones and knives. I saw Chinese people running away - there was nothing they could do.

"We don’t see any police around here. Maybe they’re all in the centre and are too busy. It’s very violent.

"Oh my God. Someone has a gun in front of me. There’s a group of about 20 people - two of them have handguns. They are walking the street.They’re shooting. They didn’t have uniforms, but the way they were in a group I thought maybe they were police. They went down the street and the first one fired, that’s for sure - I think the others did; there was so much noise I can’t be sure. Then some of the citizens threw stones, but not at them - in the other direction. So I don’t know if they were police or maybe Tibetans.

"I have just been out to get my things. We are staying at the hotel tonight. There are still people on the streets but only Tibetans - if they see anyone

Chinese they throw stones.

"Three times people raised their arms and then when they saw I was white they stopped it. The thing that surprised me most was that I saw no police or soldiers.

"I saw three people assaulting a man - I was 50 metres away, but I think he was Chinese. They kicked him and then one man had a knife and used it. He was lying on the floor and the man put the knife in his back, like he wanted to see he was dead.

"I had to get away, there were people throwing stones.

"When I came back he was gone - I don’t know if he’s dead. Then I saw people who had obviously been beaten or stoned. There wasn’t blood on them but they were so shocked.

"This area used to be a place where Tibetans and the Chinese were friendly.

“I think this is going to get worse. One person told me 300 people have died in the city centre [the Guardian has no information to substantiate this claim]. I just don’t know.”

What a mess. It’s understandable that many Tibetans feel very angry about the situation–the lack of cultural and religious freedom, and the huge influx of Han Chinese settlers. But this won’t help matters at all.

Regarding the other thread, I don’t think the throwing around of the “Free Tibet” slogan does much to help either. Do people saying that think it will help Tibet gain political independence? That’s not going to happen. And even if they don’t mean that, the slogan is certainly seen as a call for independence by the Chinese.

I wish more people on both sides would take time to understand the Dalai Lama’s intelligent position on the situation. It may or may not be possible for Tibetans to gain greater religious and cultural freedom and to stem the influx of settlers. But it’s conceivable at least, unlike the impossible dream of a fully independent Tibet.

By the way, this is the video that was in this report, I think. A group of Tibetan independence supporters attack a motorcyclist.

youtube.com/watch?v=WYTTMBu9EnQ

It’s also on CNN’s web site.

[quote]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/nyregion/16protest.html?scp=2&sq=tibet&st=nyt

The violence broke out sometime between 10 and 10:30 a.m., protesters said. Several people said that there were only a small number of police officers on the scene when the crowd had started gathering about 9:30. [/quote]
Now the Tibetan are attacking the New York City police…
I think there is definitely some misplaced frustrations here.

I’m not surprised. This is anything but “spontaneous.” It’s all pre-planned, right here:

youtube.com/watch?v=lDoEHW75FCM

Funny thing is, they are protesting the “recent violence” – their own?

[quote=“zeugmite”]I’m not surprised. This is anything but “spontaneous.” It’s all pre-planned, right here:

youtube.com/watch?v=lDoEHW75FCM

Funny thing is, they are protesting the “recent violence” – their own?[/quote]

“recent” is relative.

I gotta say, while I don’t condone violence, and especially the racially motivated attacks, I think it’s very interesting to see this movement actually take place. What do you think the likelihood is that something like this would ever be undertaken by the Taiwanese people? Or the American’s for that matter?

I’ve read many, many accounts of the Chinese invasion of Tibet and have always been awed and disgusted that the Tibetans simply allowed them to walk in and take over, what with the Zen and all. Though the accounts of the Chinese invaders’ atrocities sickened me, so did the passivity of the Tibetans. I really never thought we’d see them make any real attempt to fight back.

Now, having said that, what is with all the violence done by all the “peaceful religions?” Peace and Freedom are seldom found under one roof.

[quote=“housecat”]I’ve read many, many accounts of the Chinese invasion of Tibet and have always been awed and disgusted that the Tibetans simply allowed them to walk in and take over, what with the Zen and all. Though the accounts of the Chinese invaders’ atrocities sickened me, so did the passivity of the Tibetans. I really never thought we’d see them make any real attempt to fight back.

Now, having said that, what is with all the violence done by all the “peaceful religions?” Peace and Freedom are seldom found under one roof.[/quote]

Are you kidding me? Since when is Tibetan history or culture, especially that represented by the Khampa-laden Tibetan exile community, peaceful? I think you’re confusing actual Tibetan culture with Dalai Lama’s carefully crafted international image in the years after the CIA dropped him from payroll.

[quote=“zeugmite”][quote=“housecat”]I’ve read many, many accounts of the Chinese invasion of Tibet and have always been awed and disgusted that the Tibetans simply allowed them to walk in and take over, what with the Zen and all. Though the accounts of the Chinese invaders’ atrocities sickened me, so did the passivity of the Tibetans. I really never thought we’d see them make any real attempt to fight back.

Now, having said that, what is with all the violence done by all the “peaceful religions?” Peace and Freedom are seldom found under one roof.[/quote]

Are you kidding me? Since when is Tibetan history or culture, especially that represented by the Khampa-laden Tibetan exile community, peaceful? I think you’re confusing actual Tibetan culture with Dalai Lama’s carefully crafted international image in the years after the CIA dropped him from payroll.[/quote]

You’re right, zeugmite, which is of course why they deserve everything they have gotten in the past 50 years.

No, they don’t. Nevertheless, fighting and losing does not equate to being peaceful. Rioting, rampaging, clubbing, stoning, beating people on the street like in the current news is not peaceful, either. Sitting in Darasalam, calling for an “uprising” that will “shake Beijing to its core” is not peaceful, either.

Say it ain’t so…you mean there are people who aren’t satisfied with the current state of affairs in the workers paradise?!?

But I didn’t see anything on the local news…how could this be?

Housecat, the Tibetans did not just let China walk all over them. They did put up resistance, but had no hope against the Chinese military. The Dalai Lama (then 16) chose to negotiate on behalf of Central Tibet. Some Khampas continued guerrilla warfare from Nepal until the 1960’s.

Zeugmite, the Dalai Lama asked both sides to refrain from violence. Which come to think of it, is pretty much the same advice he gives every time someone proposes to start a war somewhere.

Obviously the Dali Lama has no influence in the Tibtan community if he cannot stop the rioters…

So why bother negotiating with him if he has no influence.

Seems like someone is not telling the truth.

[quote=“zeugmite”][quote=“housecat”]I’ve read many, many accounts of the Chinese invasion of Tibet and have always been awed and disgusted that the Tibetans simply allowed them to walk in and take over, what with the Zen and all. Though the accounts of the Chinese invaders’ atrocities sickened me, so did the passivity of the Tibetans. I really never thought we’d see them make any real attempt to fight back.

Now, having said that, what is with all the violence done by all the “peaceful religions?” Peace and Freedom are seldom found under one roof.[/quote]

Are you kidding me? Since when is Tibetan history or culture, especially that represented by the Khampa-laden Tibetan exile community, peaceful? I think you’re confusing actual Tibetan culture with Dalai Lama’s carefully crafted international image in the years after the CIA dropped him from payroll.[/quote]

Well, I did say “peaceful religions,” but in this case, I guess you have a valid point, as culture and religion of Tibet are so completely woven together.

And is that good thing for a modern society to have, a tightly woven religon and government?
If it doesn’t work for Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. why would it work for Buddhist?

Once you have government based on the supernatural, you are basically rejecting the entire philosophy of the enlightment period.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]And is that good thing for a modern society to have, a tightly woven religon and government?
If it doesn’t work for Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. why would it work for Buddhist?

Once you have government based on the supernatural, you are basically rejecting the entire philosophy of the enlightment period.[/quote]

The point of self rule is deciding these things for yourself. Some things just have to be learned the hard way.

If the Dalai Lama has so little influence, then surely there should be no objection to holding free an fair elections in Tibet…?

Tibetan aspirations are not based on religion so much as on a separate ethnic and cultural identity. They want to be their own masters, not be lorded over by the Chinese. That is the social reality which allowed the riots to break out–lack of any other means of making their influence felt, as the government certainly doesn’t care what the Tibetan people (or their own people, for that matter) want, except as a means to the end of maintaining power. As you may know, most Tibetans hate the Chinese–not unreasonably, as this is based on long acquaintance with enlightened specimens such as ac and zeugmite–and hope to be as free of them as they can manage.

The Dalai Lama has been very moderate and reasonable in his proposals. But this has gotten him absolutely nowhere with the Chinese, who appear to be perfectly happy with waiting for him to die, and his country to wither away. In this light, it’s very understandable why some Tibetans would lose patience and want to smash heads. God knows I want to.

Such bullshit claptrap. PRC is not a single ethnic group country. Nobody lords over anybody any more than the whites lord over the blacks in the US, for instance. Tibetans can and do participate, even preferentially, in the political process, however flawed it may be. You may have problems with the political system itself, but that’s a separate issue not particular to an ethnic group.

We just don’t understand Chinese culture.

Apparently its OK for Chinese to kill Chinese, such as in Tiananmen Square… But, let the angry, desperate, conquered, exploited, subjugated Tibetans kill Chinese and there will be Hell to pay, by God. This simply will not stand!

Zeugmite is correct in pointing out that the PRC is multiethnic, but wrong in saying that it is not controlled by Han Chinese. And the Tibetans were not always a “minority,” you know.

Sounds like there are some angry white people in this board projecting on the Tibetans…
And somehow oversea Chinese people are linked to this how again?