Facebook and our kids: How old is old enough?

Taiwan Parenting
21

I don’t have kids of my own, but I expect I would allow them to use Facebook, of course taking the reasonable precautions everyone mentioned. When I was a child of just six years old I was permitted to walk home from school alone, along either of two established routes. Imagine that today. It’d likely get me accused of criminal neglect. At the time, in the 70’s, it was a small, presumably safe town. As a six-year-old I was perfectly aware of the logic behind the rule to never trust or even talk to a stranger. By age 10 I think I was allowed to browse shops by myself during Christmas shopping trips to the malls. Wow.

Statistically, so they say, life is no more dangerous today than it was back then. Let’s say they’re wrong, and life is scarier today because it actually is more dangerous and not just because of media hype etc., it’s still fair to say that teaching your kids about proper online behavior is like teaching your kids how to go about town, and life, safely. It’s the information highway, right?

Kids on Facebook mostly play Flash games like Farmville and Pet Society anyway. If you “friend” your own kid, then you and every aunt and uncle can inspect your kid’s friend list any time they want. Just set rules on what sort of photos your kid can upload, what degree of friendship separation you’ll tolerate for their friends. (Sounds like very limited for most posters here.) Maybe tell them not to use the message system. ( :astonished: Email is supposed to be coming too any day now.)

And the benefits are huge. All your relatives can interact with your kid even though you live overseas.

22

In Taiwan, the fb demos are this

13-17 0.7M
18-25 2.8M
26-30 1.7M
31-35 1.1M
36-40 0.6M
41-45 0.3M
46+ 0.3M

These are basically representative of the whole of FB
Note there are more 13-17 than 36-40
More 13-17 than 41+
The distribution is heaviest around college-aged or recent grads
And very skewed to the left
Which is partially an artifact of Facebook’s roots
Back in day Facebook was very different
Back then you could only get in with a .edu from one of a dozen schools
While elitist, this gave very strong positive signals about who was on Facebook
Sharing everything didn’t seem a problem because of this
When they opened it to highschool, highschoolers needed invites from .edu members to get in
That worked
It was a party
Then they opened up to everyone
Things got weird for awhile
But Zuck and crew did something brilliant
The so-called “privacy controls”
A great trojan horse
Really, this was a godsend for all the OG users
Look we can segregate our Facebook shares!
Then it wasn’t that much of a problem that everyone AND THEIR MOM was getting on there

Fake accounts imply people don’t understand Facebook
Facebook is about network effect
Network effect means real human relationships
The only exception is businesses and fan clubs
The danger when people don’t create their own accounts
Is taking away the feelings around being the one to create the account
Would you want a “social” account your parents handed you?
Hell no
It won’t be be cool
“My parents thought it was cool”
“Fuck that shit. Not my thing”
This is a danger that Facebook faces

23

Is that abstract poetry?

24

Huh? My relatives interact with my kid just fine. Except granny and grandad, who refuse to buy a computer. They get their info second-hand from my sisters. Works very well. maybe I’m just more privacy-minded? Remember back long, long ago when they had these things called “telephones” in people’s houses? And them big old books full of telephone numbers? You could have this thing called “ex-directory” in which your number didn’t appear in the book? I had that from the very first “telephone” I ever had.

25

Huh? My relatives interact with my kid just fine. Except granny and grandad, who refuse to buy a computer. They get their info second-hand from my sisters. Works very well. maybe I’m just more privacy-minded? Remember back long, long ago when they had these things called “telephones” in people’s houses? And them big old books full of telephone numbers? You could have this thing called “ex-directory” in which your number didn’t appear in the book? I had that from the very first “telephone” I ever had.[/quote]
You can’t talk to yer mates nor network with them via telephone ALL AT THE SAME TIME! The times they are a-changing! Be a hip Dad!

26

how coincidental
making the rounds today: the phone call is dead

27

Chief, I am with you on this. Lying is lying…yes we all fib, but to sanction a lie to your child…nah. It is a clear message that a parent says its ok to lie. Next, she will be lying at clubs to get in. Yes I am with Sandman too, about the shit on FB and what kids see and show.

About she going behind your back - there are no guarantees. Even if you open an account and keep an eye on it, she may still use an another FB account, which goes unmoderated by you and unbeknown too.

Maoman, a promise is a promise, but kids have to understand, that even though parents want to keep their word, they won’t bend over backwards or break rules. Sometimes I promise the kids ice-cream or sth. and one falls sick, too bad, rain check. Or a trip to the zoo and it rains…they whine but when the promise is fulfilled later, they understand!!

About keeping the computer in a living area, I do it too. Only use laptops during travel, but at home, whoever can see whatever I am doing, so of course the kids will get no computer privacy!

28

Facebook still sucks, though, no matter how many kids want in on it.

29

[quote=“maoman”][quote=“the chief”]
The only issue at hand, as far as I’m concerned, is that if lying is the only way to get Facebook, she can’t have it. Lying is lying, and I’m astounded at the fluidity with which everyone appears to be applying that standard here.

And, Maoman your analogy of me using a screen name rather than my own is lame. There’s no requirement in the Facebook rules that one use one’s real name.[/quote]
Actually, there is. It comes in as rule number one in the Registration and Account Security section, while the age requirement isn’t mentioned until rule number five:

[quote]Facebook users provide their real names and information, and we need your help to keep it that way. Here are some commitments you make to us relating to registering and maintaining the security of your account:
1.You will not provide any false personal information on Facebook, or create an account for anyone other than yourself without permission.
2.You will not create more than one personal profile.
3.If we disable your account, you will not create another one without our permission.
4.You will not use your personal profile for your own commercial gain (such as selling your status update to an advertiser).
5.You will not use Facebook if you are under 13.[/quote]
How now brown cow?
As you say, lying is lying. :idunno:[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not sure if the fact that your dog has a Forumosa account supports my side of the argument or yours…

30

[quote=“the chief”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“the chief”]
The only issue at hand, as far as I’m concerned, is that if lying is the only way to get Facebook, she can’t have it. Lying is lying, and I’m astounded at the fluidity with which everyone appears to be applying that standard here.

And, Maoman your analogy of me using a screen name rather than my own is lame. There’s no requirement in the Facebook rules that one use one’s real name.[/quote]
Actually, there is. It comes in as rule number one in the Registration and Account Security section, while the age requirement isn’t mentioned until rule number five:

[quote]Facebook users provide their real names and information, and we need your help to keep it that way. Here are some commitments you make to us relating to registering and maintaining the security of your account:
1.You will not provide any false personal information on Facebook, or create an account for anyone other than yourself without permission.
2.You will not create more than one personal profile.
3.If we disable your account, you will not create another one without our permission.
4.You will not use your personal profile for your own commercial gain (such as selling your status update to an advertiser).
5.You will not use Facebook if you are under 13.[/quote]
How now brown cow?
As you say, lying is lying. :idunno:[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not sure if the fact that your dog has a Forumosa account supports my side of the argument or yours…[/quote]
I’m not the one saying that it’s wrong to lie to Facebook. EYE have no problem with it whatsoever. YOU, on the other hand, are keeping your daughter from having a Facebook account on the grounds that it’s wrong to lie when you’re registering with them, yet have done so with your own account. In this instance, you don’t have a moral leg to stand on. :no-no:

I suggest you tell your daughter that you’ve thought it over, that you’re not crazy about the idea of lying, but understand that it’s an ethical norm in our society to lie in such situations. Explain to her your concerns about Facebook and then supervise closely. The nice thing is, you can supervise her Facebook activity from your smartphone - you don’t even have to be in the same room as her…

31

I like the chief’s idea. I don’t like teaching kids to lie. My girl will go through this soon, I would say to wait until she is 13, but it’s her mom’s call. (In my case.)

32

But the rules ARE being broken - it’s just that the chief’s daughter doesn’t know that her dad is breaking them. He’s not hesitating because he feels she’s too immature, or too young (he doesn’t - he was prepared to set up the account), but rather because of a moral code which is capriciously ignored in his own circumstances. Morality shouldn’t start and end at convenience. If the chief thinks it’s wrong to lie to Facebook, then he must surely think it’s wrong for anyone to lie to Facebook, not just his daughter. I happen to know that the chief is an awesome dad, and from his original post, we can tell he’s pretty conflicted about the issue. I’m taking the side that it’s ok to lie sometimes. If he feels the same way, his daughter gets the reward to which she is entitled, and he can have an easy conscience about it.

I think it’s ok to put this into perspective. Every time you sign up for an online anything, you click a little box saying that you have read and agree to the terms and conditions of the organization. How many of us actually read THAT? I know I never do. I just click the “yes” box, effectively lying, and proceed to the next step. This is not behaviour which I need to shelter my children from - it can be explained and rationalized.

What is harder to explain and rationalize is holding your children to a principle that you don’t believe in yourself.

33

[quote=“maoman”][quote=“the chief”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“the chief”]
The only issue at hand, as far as I’m concerned, is that if lying is the only way to get Facebook, she can’t have it. Lying is lying, and I’m astounded at the fluidity with which everyone appears to be applying that standard here.

And, Maoman your analogy of me using a screen name rather than my own is lame. There’s no requirement in the Facebook rules that one use one’s real name.[/quote]
Actually, there is. It comes in as rule number one in the Registration and Account Security section, while the age requirement isn’t mentioned until rule number five:

[quote]Facebook users provide their real names and information, and we need your help to keep it that way. Here are some commitments you make to us relating to registering and maintaining the security of your account:
1.You will not provide any false personal information on Facebook, or create an account for anyone other than yourself without permission.
2.You will not create more than one personal profile.
3.If we disable your account, you will not create another one without our permission.
4.You will not use your personal profile for your own commercial gain (such as selling your status update to an advertiser).
5.You will not use Facebook if you are under 13.[/quote]
How now brown cow?
As you say, lying is lying. :idunno:[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not sure if the fact that your dog has a Forumosa account supports my side of the argument or yours…[/quote]
I’m not the one saying that it’s wrong to lie to Facebook. EYE have no problem with it whatsoever. YOU, on the other hand, are keeping your daughter from having a Facebook account on the grounds that it’s wrong to lie when you’re registering with them, yet have done so with your own account. In this instance, you don’t have a moral leg to stand on. :no-no:

I suggest you tell your daughter that you’ve thought it over, that you’re not crazy about the idea of lying, but understand that it’s an ethical norm in our society to lie in such situations. Explain to her your concerns about Facebook and then supervise closely. The nice thing is, you can supervise her Facebook activity from your smartphone - you don’t even have to be in the same room as her…[/quote]

Your points are duly noted.
And as for you defining what “ethical norms” are in “our” society, well…
I suggest you speak for yourself in both cases, pilgrim.

34

I think it’s ok to put this into perspective. Every time you sign up for an online anything, you click a little box saying that you have read and agree to the terms and conditions of the organization. How many of us actually read THAT? I know I never do. I just click the “yes” box, effectively lying, and proceed to the next step. This is not behaviour which I need to shelter my children from - it can be explained and rationalized.

What is harder to explain and rationalize is holding your children to a principle that you don’t believe in yourself.[/quote]

Not that it’s any of your business, but I’ve already dealt with the fact that I used a UN rather than my own when registering for FB.
As noted, I had no idea there was a requirement to use your own name, the age restriction only became known because it physically blocked her from registering.
We’ve also, once again, not that it’s any of your business, located a suitable alternative social network specifically catering to people her age, set up and supervised to prevent, as much as possible, the kind of problems that can occur, and further, to which I have full access to maintain awareness of what kind of activity is taking place.
And to which she’s quite happy to belong and is enjoying quite enthusiastically.

35

[quote=“the chief”]Your points are duly noted. And as for you defining what “ethical norms” are in “our” society, well…
I suggest you speak for yourself in both cases, pilgrim.[/quote]
Read the example I gave in the post above yours about terms and conditions during online registration. I’m pretty sure that is an instance where we share an ethical norm.

[quote=“the chief”]Not that it’s any of your business, but I’ve already dealt with the fact that I used a UN rather than my own when registering for FB.
As noted, I had no idea there was a requirement to use your own name, the age restriction only became known because it physically blocked her from registering.[/quote]
Now that you know, will you comply with Facebook’s terms and conditions? and provide accurate personal information? It’s easy to do. :stuck_out_tongue: If you don’t, what moral message are you sending yourself?

36

Yes, that’s cool.

We’ll check back on maoman in about nine or ten years and see if he’s changed his tune.

37

The Chief, good to hear that things have worked out well. Here’s my own rather boring take on the situation, written before I read that update:

I don’t think it’s as clearcut as either Maoman or Divea would have it.

For most people, there has to be some fluidity about lying. Of course it’s
preferable not to lie. But it’s probably OK to lie if your Granny asks if you
like the terrible tie she got you for Christmas; it’s OK, even morally
obligatory sometimes, to lie to protect someone from physical harm. So then it
becomes a question of where you draw the line. And I think that where there’s
doubt, many people look carefully at the particular situation: whether lying in
that situation could cause hurt to themselves or others, now or in the future.

But while it might seem harmless to lie when signing up for Facebook, it is a
legal agreement you’re entering into. Definitely not good to get into a habit of
lying on legal agreements.

It’s a tough one. I don’t know what I’d do.

38

[quote=“Joesox”]I don’t think it’s as clearcut as either Maoman or Divea would have it.

For most people, there has to be some fluidity about lying. Of course it’s
preferable not to lie. But it’s probably OK to lie if your Granny asks if you
like the terrible tie she got you for Christmas; it’s OK, even morally
obligatory sometimes, to lie to protect someone from physical harm. So then it
becomes a question of where you draw the line. And I think that where there’s
doubt, many people look carefully at the particular situation: whether lying in
that situation could cause hurt to themselves or others, now or in the future.

But while it might seem harmless to lie when signing up for Facebook, it is a
legal agreement you’re entering into. Definitely not good to get into a habit of
lying on legal agreements.[/quote]
Just to be clear, I’m not saying that lying is good or bad, just that it is a norm, especially in the instance described here. If the chief went ahead and made the necessary changes to his account in order to comply with his own moral code, I would have huge respect. Same goes if he decided that lying is ok for him to do, but not his kid. Same goes if he decided that lying is ok for both him and his kid. The disconnect is coming from the fact that he is aware that he himself is in breach of the rules on Facebook - the same rules that are keeping him from allowing his daughter from having a Facebook account. We already know that he feels she is old enough/mature enough to handle Facebook, or he wouldn’t have negotiated setting up a Facebook account as a reward for her improving her grades, helping around the house, etc. The ONLY thing keeping her from a Facebook account is the chief’s assertion that lying is wrong. Period.

I’m trying to point out the flaws in his argument.

39

Or she may be too young.

40

I guess the chief didn’t think so since he was the one who struck the original deal with her. His qualms had to do with lying to Facebook.