For instance, Buddhism and Hinduism make zero sense to me, while Christianity does.
If you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior, then nothing about the bible (at least the New Testament) will make sense to you. In fact, it would surprise me if it did make sense.
The bottom line is that understanding of a religious viewpoint truly only comes when you accept the foundational tenets of that religious viewpoint.
It bothers me that there are those who seek to delegitimize what I hold to be true and right, labeling what I believe to be evil and ‘poison’. Atheism doesn’t make sense to me, so does that mean that I should mount a personal campaign to call it ‘poison’ and eradicate it from public discourse?
I think that what bob is saying is that if there were no gods nor religions, people would be just as good or evil as they are now. Hence, religion is not a binding, moral force, nor does it have any positive impact on morality.
Not sure about that. I don’t believe that anyone understands a religion. That would entail, I think, understanding the divine, and I don’t think that’s possible, for us mortals, at least. You know… 道可道，非常道。名可名，非常名…
Now, I see that you are not saying that one understands the divine, but rather, a religious viewpoint. Perhaps you can explain the difference, because, to me, accepting the tenets means having faith, and faith is acceptance without an ability to understand/explain.
If that is what bob is saying, I disagree. I believe that many people can be and are good and moral people without a need for God and or religion. But, that is not the same as saying that religion is not a binding, moral force, and neither does it have any positive impact on morality. I think that religion can be and often is, for some people, a binding, moral force, and that religion does for some, sometimes have a positive impact on morality.
If that is what bob is saying, I disagree. I believe that many people can be and are good and moral people without a need for God and or religion. But, that is not the same as saying that religion is not a binding, moral force, and neither does it have any positive impact on morality. I think that religion can be and often is, for some people, a binding, moral force, and that religion does for some, sometimes have a positive impact on morality.[/quote]
But assume hypothetically that there never was any religion or metaphysical beliefs. Do you think that people would be less moral in such a situation? This is an important epistemological question.
[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]Bob, it seems like you want faith to make perfect sense to people who don’t have it, and that’s just not how it works.
For instance, Buddhism and Hinduism make zero sense to me, while Christianity does.
If you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior, then nothing about the bible (at least the New Testament) will make sense to you. In fact, it would surprise me if it did make sense.
The bottom line is that understanding of a religious viewpoint truly only comes when you accept the foundational tenets of that religious viewpoint.
It bothers me that there are those who seek to delegitimize what I hold to be true and right, labeling what I believe to be evil and ‘poison’. Atheism doesn’t make sense to me, so does that mean that I should mount a personal campaign to call it ‘poison’ and eradicate it from public discourse?[/quote]
MY REPLY so is it true and right to kill people who speak bad about ur deity LEV 24:16(remeber jesus god of the old test told men to do this)
is it true right and moral to kill gays LEV 20:13??is it moral to sell your daughters into slavery if you want too LEV 20:13???DUEt 13:6-18.
remember what the new testament says ROM 3:31 1 JOHN 3:4 you are to ESTABLISH those laws I posted above
and SIN is only a transgression of the law,this means its NOT A SIN to own slaves,sell your children into slavery or kill gays or people who try to convert you.
with that said HOW did people in the past KNOW the “spirit” that wispered in their ears from thin air was really god or the devil?
if a “spirit” says he is god and then tells you to kill anyone who speaks bad about him LEV 24:16 would you not think that is strange???when he said you can sell your children as property to other men EX 21:7 would you still think this is the all loving god or a fake?
if BOTH the devil and god tell men to do what is commonly known as evil deeds how can you tell which one is really god and the other the devil?
they both sent men to stab infants to death.
[quote=“bob”]
Or whatever he says is false is true, and whatever he says is true is false. I mean, by your reasoning, he can have it any way he wants just by saying so. It’s good to stone unruly children. Heck sometimes you might even want to stone a cow! [/quote]
Bob, that’s why living by Faith is so easy. It take all the uncertainty out of life, and allows you to live a live free from the joy of discovery, the passion of the journey, and the joyful sorrow of loss.
If you have a chance I would definitely recommend a visit to the museum of world religions in Yonghe. They have a truly beutiful film about the various creation myths, and another one involving various luminaries talking about their religious experiences. All very inspiring and insightful. Really. But at one point an interview is conducted with a young aboriginee man in which it is explained, not only that trees talk, but that the young man in question knows what they say. He knows this because, unlike the rest of us, he takes it as a given that they can talk. You can only hear them if you believe.
If you get a weird, creepy feeling from that story you’ll have some idea how weird and creepy your story sounds to some of us.
Okay, I’m still in Israel, so you’ll hafta bear with me as I answer all these questions in one batch.
Not sure about that. I don’t believe that anyone understands a religion. That would entail, I think, understanding the divine, and I don’t think that’s possible, for us mortals, at least. You know… 道可道，非常道。名可名，非常名…
Now, I see that you are not saying that one understands the divine, but rather, a religious viewpoint. Perhaps you can explain the difference, because, to me, accepting the tenets means having faith, and faith is acceptance without an ability to understand/explain.[/quote]
There are several concepts at play here. We have external vs. internal validity. Religion has very little external validity, but tremendous internal validity. Atheists, for instance, are comfortable in their ‘faith’ that there is no God. To those of us who are not Atheists, the idea that there is no God is patently ridiculous. To us God-believers, Atheists are looney tunes.
Likewise, all other religions suffer from these problems. Those on the outside of religion X will always consider adherents of religion X as looney tunes. That’s the way it is.
Here’s that a second point. Faith answers the unanswerable. It explains some of the reasons why we’re here and where we’re going. Does this mean that I understand why God became a man, took our sins upon Himself and paid for them on the cross?
Not completely. Not even close. But, I do know that God loves you and me more than anything in His creation.
And the challenge of understanding divine nature? That, my friend, is a life-long journey, which I am more than willing to share.
Bob, if you get a weird, creepy feeling when you come into contact with Christianity, well Christ isn’t for you. And, I wish you well in life.
But, are you sure about where you will be when that life ends?
GB, you are patently ignoring vast amounts of historical fact, so it’s hard to even know where to begin. But, let me pick out just one point.
Are you sure that you know so much about Christian history?
Roman Catholicism was decidedly NOT the only form of Christianity for a 1000 years - not even close. In fact, Catholicism did its damndest to stamp out original Christians wherever they could be found.
Furthermore, I would think that it falls upon Christians to define who Christians are. After all, there IS a definition in the Bible, and it’s found in Matthew 5, 6 and 7. In chapter 7 we even see a specific warning to guard against those who claim to be Christian, and are not:
[quote=“Matthew 7”]15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?[/quote]
Does that remind you of anything? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck, do you think that it’s a sheep?
If you want to know how to identify a Christian, just look up Matthew 5, 6 and 7.
Now, ask yourself this. If EVERYONE conformed to the qualities espoused in Matthew 5-7, what do you think the world would be like?
Absolute paradise.
- written from my secret redoubt, deep within the Jerusalem highlands -
I take it you don’t know a lot of people who live by faith. I mean intimately. Beyond easy caricatures.[/quote]
I know some,and I have known more (mostly I can’t abide such people, so they’re not likely to become my friends). Most of them are caricatures, although there are a couple who are not, and are in fact wonderful human beings, and I am glad to call my friends. But they are by and large the exception, and also (perhaps not surprisingly) far and away the least preachy or dogmatic. Mind you, even one of them has recently had an epiphany and is now a totally relieved atheist, who shakes her head at her own previous blinkered existence, one that even she calls ‘brainwashed’.
[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]There are several concepts at play here. We have external vs. internal validity. Religion has very little external validity, but tremendous internal validity. Atheists, for instance, are comfortable in their ‘faith’ that there is no God. To those of us who are not Atheists, the idea that there is no God is patently ridiculous. To us God-believers, Atheists are looney tunes.
Likewise, all other religions suffer from these problems. Those on the outside of religion X will always consider adherents of religion X as looney tunes. That’s the way it is.
Here’s that a second point. Faith answers the unanswerable. It explains some of the reasons why we’re here and where we’re going. Does this mean that I understand why God became a man, took our sins upon Himself and paid for them on the cross?
Not completely. Not even close. But, I do know that God loves you and me more than anything in His creation.
And the challenge of understanding divine nature? That, my friend, is a life-long journey, which I am more than willing to share.
Bob, if you get a weird, creepy feeling when you come into contact with Christianity, well Christ isn’t for you. And, I wish you well in life.
But, are you sure about where you will be when that life ends?
[/quote]
I doubt that you are even trying to understand the “atheist” position. None of us have “faith” in the idea that there is no God. Rarely do we even have certainty about whether there was a consciousness or not behind the big bang. What we do agree to, to a man, is that the people who wrote the Bible had no priveledged access to the creator of the universe or his thoughts and intentions. If they did it would be A LOT better book.
Religion doesn’t “actually” answer any of life’s big questions. It pretends to in order to soothe people’s anxieties (and control them economically and politically.)
I am pretty sure where I will be when I die. Nowhere. That is the reality that religion tries to escape.
If you believe in something that has tremendouse internal validity but no external validity you ARE a loon. And the more “tremendous” you think the internal validity is the more of a loon you are. Chrstians make claims about external reality. Internal validity CAN’T logically be used in order to support those claims. It is textbook delusion and amazingly enough it is absolutely common.
I need to ask whether or not you are watching the videos I am posting. Are you?
I doubt that you are even trying to understand the “atheist” position. None of us have “faith” in the idea that there is no God. Rarely do we even have certainty about whether there was a consciousness or not behind the big bang. What we do agree to, to a man, is that the people who wrote the Bible had no priveledged access to the creator of the universe or his thoughts and intentions. If they did it would be A LOT better book.
Religion doesn’t “actually” answer any of life’s big questions. It pretends to in order to soothe people’s anxieties (and control them economically and politically.)
I am pretty sure where I will be when I die. Nowhere. That is the reality that religion tries to escape.
If you believe in something that has tremendouse internal validity but no external validity you ARE a loon. And the more “tremendous” you think the internal validity is the more of a loon you are. Chrstians make claims about external reality. Internal validity CAN’T logically be used in order to support those claims. It is textbook delusion and amazingly enough it is absolutely common.
I need to ask whether or not you are watching the videos I am posting. Are you? [/quote]
Bob,
You have demonstrated beautifully what I have been trying to say.
You believe that your view of the Universe is completely and utterly logical. We Christians believe that OUR view of the Universe is completely and utterly logical.
You think that we Christians are loony.
We feel the same about atheism.
I accept this dichotomy and wonder why this is so hard for you to do the same.
Bob thinks that all followers of religion are deluded. You think that atheists are looney, AND that followers of all other religions are wrong. It’s not the same, it’s subtly but importantly different. you are painting atheism as another religion, whereas it plainly isn’t.
Atheism is a fulsome rejection of the whole idea of faith and the supernatural and some imaginary person(s) in the sky, because living by faith is an outdated stone-age view of the world (and not even a view of the world as it actually is, but a view of the world the way a stone-age mentality believes it to be).
[quote=“urodacus”]Bob thinks that all followers of religion are deluded. You think that atheists are looney, AND that followers of all other religions are wrong. It’s not the same, it’s subtly but importantly different. you are painting atheism as another religion, whereas it plainly isn’t.
Atheism is a fulsome rejection of the whole idea of faith and the supernatural and some imaginary person(s) in the sky, because living by faith is an outdated stone-age view of the world (and not even a view of the world as it actually is, but a view of the world the way a stone-age mentality believes it to be).[/quote]
The reality is that atheism is by definition a belief system. While atheists may not be a part of an organized religion, believing there is no greater being is still a belief.
I doubt that you are even trying to understand the “atheist” position. None of us have “faith” in the idea that there is no God. Rarely do we even have certainty about whether there was a consciousness or not behind the big bang. What we do agree to, to a man, is that the people who wrote the Bible had no priveledged access to the creator of the universe or his thoughts and intentions. If they did it would be A LOT better book.
Religion doesn’t “actually” answer any of life’s big questions. It pretends to in order to soothe people’s anxieties (and control them economically and politically.)
I am pretty sure where I will be when I die. Nowhere. That is the reality that religion tries to escape.
If you believe in something that has tremendouse internal validity but no external validity you ARE a loon. And the more “tremendous” you think the internal validity is the more of a loon you are. Chrstians make claims about external reality. Internal validity CAN’T logically be used in order to support those claims. It is textbook delusion and amazingly enough it is absolutely common.
I need to ask whether or not you are watching the videos I am posting. Are you? [/quote]
Bob,
You have demonstrated beautifully what I have been trying to say.
You believe that your view of the Universe is completely and utterly logical. We Christians believe that OUR view of the Universe is completely and utterly logical.
You think that we Christians are loony.
We feel the same about atheism.
I accept this dichotomy and wonder why this is so hard for you to do the same.[/quote]
It is hard to accept because yours IS loony and ours isn’t. We believe things that evidence and reasoning point to and DISBELIEVE things that evidence and reasoning DON"T point to, such as the notion that the creator of the universe somehow influenced the writing the Bible, or the idea that the laws of nature were suspended here and there to prove, for example, the divinity of Jesus.
In the resurrection story we are told that the laws of nature are interupted. Specifically these laws…
Sorry, reason and evidence support our position and they don’t support yours. The debate was won a long time ago. It’s just that some people won’t acknowledge that, frequently because for so long they have been given instructions to believe what is in their hearts after a lifetime of brainwashing.
[quote=“bob”][quote=“Got To Be Kidding”][quote=“bob”]
I doubt that you are even trying to understand the “atheist” position. None of us have “faith” in the idea that there is no God. Rarely do we even have certainty about whether there was a consciousness or not behind the big bang. What we do agree to, to a man, is that the people who wrote the Bible had no priveledged access to the creator of the universe or his thoughts and intentions. If they did it would be A LOT better book.
Religion doesn’t “actually” answer any of life’s big questions. It pretends to in order to soothe people’s anxieties (and control them economically and politically.)
I am pretty sure where I will be when I die. Nowhere. That is the reality that religion tries to escape.
If you believe in something that has tremendouse internal validity but no external validity you ARE a loon. And the more “tremendous” you think the internal validity is the more of a loon you are. Chrstians make claims about external reality. Internal validity CAN’T logically be used in order to support those claims. It is textbook delusion and amazingly enough it is absolutely common.
I need to ask whether or not you are watching the videos I am posting. Are you? [/quote]
Bob,
You have demonstrated beautifully what I have been trying to say.
You believe that your view of the Universe is completely and utterly logical. We Christians believe that OUR view of the Universe is completely and utterly logical.
You think that we Christians are loony.
We feel the same about atheism.
I accept this dichotomy and wonder why this is so hard for you to do the same.[/quote]
It is hard to accept because yours IS loony and ours isn’t. We believe things that evidence and reasoning point to and disbelieve things that evidence and reasoning don’t point to, such as the notion that the creator of the universe somehow took a hand in writing the Bible, or the idea that the laws of nature have were suspended here and there to prove the divinity of Jesus.
In the resurrection story we are told that the laws of nature are interupted. Specifically these laws…
Sorry, reason and evidence support our position and they don’t support yours. The debate was won a long time ago. It’s just that some people won’t acknowledge that because for so long they have been given instructions to believe what is in their hearts after a lifetime of brainwashing.
Please, are you watching the videos?[/quote]
Bob,
I’m really enjoying this demonstration that you are giving us. I could change the wording a little and use your words to describe OUR position vis-a-vis yours.
I just don’t understand why you struggle so hard to see our position in this.
And, there is a serious aspect to this inability that you are demonstrating. People like you who gain positions of power start to create a cascade of rules and regulations that, over time, lead to persecution, death and mass murder - a story that has been repeated for centuries.
So, we can ‘wink’ at your inability to understand how Christians think, but this is not a trivial matter.
Now, why is it that you are so insistent that I watch your videos? You sound like you are trying to ‘win me over to atheism’. I don’t mind you trying, but it’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?
