Fake Degrees

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

[quote=“stately”]Who does this guy think he is? Why would anybody on this form want to give you information on how to work illegally here in Taiwan anyway? I didn’t suffer through four years of university to come over here and listen to some lazy whiner talk about how he “just never made it to college” and expects the same pay as some one with an education.

The nerve of some foreigners on this island. Good luck at Subway, Fred.

Does anyone else agree with me, or am I jumping to conclusions here?[/quote]

I personally have no problem in someone saying a few white lies to gain employment. I think if he can get the job after having an interview good on him. If he can do the job what does it really matter?Doesn’t hurt me at all. Best man get’s the job. Obviously if the position requires education(uni) he will not be able to do the job to a satisfactory standard and get the sack.

I learn’t more actually doing my profession than I ever did at Uni. I wish I could have found a way around the system that I think is Bs.

If Someone does find away around it, good on them.

22

Wait until it’s your job he’s taking. Personally, I think there’s a difference between fudging on a job application (like renaming your job being in making sure other cashiers got back from lunch on time as “cashier supervisor”), but flat out lying about something that is a prerequisite to getting the job (and visa) is totally wrong. A white lie is what you tell when it benefits those around you. Lying about having a degree when the government requires you to have one in order to teach English does not benefit the school in any way because once they start to apply for a work permit, they will need your diploma which obviously doesn’t exist and therefore will be short a teacher or have to risk taking on an illegal employee.

I could even be a little sympathetic, but this person isn’t teaching because he wants to be a teacher. He’s only doing it to make money which is the wrong reason for getting into the teaching profession. You want money, get into import/export where people are not relying on you to educate them or worse yet, to educate their children.

I swear, people. :unamused::roll::roll::roll:

23

Good on ya’ ImaniOU. Actually, the requirements for obtaining a work permit to teach English are either a degree OR a two-year diploma plus TESOL or equivalent.

I recruited a couple of people with only the latter qualifications and I hate to say it, but there was a difference. The one just didn’t seem to know stuff. The other seemed like a grade 12 grad, not a university grad. I dunno. I don’t mean to sound prejudiced. It was just a couple of simple observations. Don’t want to go into too many details. I think personnel stuff is confidential.

I’m not saying that a degree a good teacher makes. That isn’t particularily so but I’d rather gamble on a uni grad than not. Good teaching instincts, a joy of helping others, a joy of sharing, etc. I think, are very important, too. Everyone pays when people teach only for the money.

24

[quote=“autumn489”]Good on ya’ ImaniOU. Actually, the requirements for obtaining a work permit to teach English are either a degree OR a two-year diploma plus TESOL or equivalent.

I recruited a couple of people with only the latter qualifications and I hate to say it, but there was a difference. The one just didn’t seem to know stuff. The other seemed like a grade 12 grad, not a university grad. I dunno. I don’t mean to sound prejudiced. It was just a couple of simple observations. Don’t want to go into too many details. I think personnel stuff is confidential.

I’m not saying that a degree a good teacher makes. That isn’t particularily so but I’d rather gamble on a uni grad than not. Good teaching instincts, a joy of helping others, a joy of sharing, etc. I think, are very important, too. Everyone pays when people teach only for the money.[/quote]

Adults or children? I havn’t come across anything too intellectually challenging teaching 1-12 year olds :smiley: F says FF FROG :stuck_out_tongue: A grade 12 grad should be able to handle it.
I think it is more to do with the selling point. “We only have BA university graduates teaching at our establishment.”
Granted, teaching adults that are capable of conversation requires some knowledge of the English language.

Does a Universtity degree make someone a grammer whiz. I don’t think so, myself as an example and most of the other teachers I have come in contact with all have major memory loss of the English grammar and puntuation rules.

Maybe people that post on forums are a different kettle of fish and are grammar whizzes :laughing:

Each to his own. This has no bearing on me. I have seen similar posts from guys in similar situations on other forums and it seems to always draw attention of people with their nose in the air waving their fingers and giving a major moral lecture to some young guy trying to make something out of the situation he is in. I am a confident person, I feel in no way will his actions have any negative affect on my success.

25

So I take it we won’t see any posts from Mr. Jones in a few months bitching about how he lost his job to some newbie who was more photogenic or had better (but questionable) qualifications. If it came down to it, Mr Jones, would you lose your teaching job to a young, pretty, outgoing girl with a MA in child psychology and two years’ teaching experience? I met one while travelling around Taiwan a few years ago…only her MA in child psychology was a fake seeing as she barely finished high school. I could lose my job to her if I didn’t have such seniority (I hope I wouldn’t). A three-minute conversation with her was enough to know she had no business being around small children. I know she’s not the only one out there. So pray tell me how lying to your employer about having a degree which is vital for securing a work permit is not harmful. Parents and schools are paying an awful lot of money to get scammed by these people.

26

[quote=“Mr Jones”][quote=“autumn489”]Good on ya’ ImaniOU. Actually, the requirements for obtaining a work permit to teach English are either a degree OR a two-year diploma plus TESOL or equivalent.

I recruited a couple of people with only the latter qualifications and I hate to say it, but there was a difference. The one just didn’t seem to know stuff. The other seemed like a grade 12 grad, not a university grad. I dunno. I don’t mean to sound prejudiced. It was just a couple of simple observations. Don’t want to go into too many details. I think personnel stuff is confidential.

I’m not saying that a degree a good teacher makes. That isn’t particularily so but I’d rather gamble on a uni grad than not. Good teaching instincts, a joy of helping others, a joy of sharing, etc. I think, are very important, too. Everyone pays when people teach only for the money.[/quote]

Adults or children? I havn’t come across anything too intellectually challenging teaching 1-12 year olds :smiley: F says FF FROG :stuck_out_tongue: A grade 12 grad should be able to handle it.
I think it is more to do with the selling point. “We only have BA university graduates teaching at our establishment.”
Granted, teaching adults that are capable of conversation requires some knowledge of the English language.

Does a Universtity degree make someone a grammer whiz. I don’t think so, myself as an example and most of the other teachers I have come in contact with all have major memory loss of the English grammar and puntuation rules.

Maybe people that post on forums are a different kettle of fish and are grammar whizzes :laughing:

Each to his own. This has no bearing on me. I have seen similar posts from guys in similar situations on other forums and it seems to always draw attention of people with their nose in the air waving their fingers and giving a major moral lecture to some young guy trying to make something out of the situation he is in. I am a confident person, I feel in no way will his actions have any negative affect on my success.[/quote]

I, too, had to take a grammar refresher and continue to learn. I think most adults can do that. That’s not what I’m referring to.

Children. I’m not referring to just the process of teaching. I’m talking about how this person related to her academic director and the other office staff. How she complained unduly about stuff that was normal expectations. How she had a bad attitude - seemed to have a chip on her shoulder. She made things unnecessarily unpleasant at her school.

Adults. I draw on my general knowledge and past experience when discussing topics with adults. I can bring a lot more information to the table and topics for discussion than would otherwise be the case without a university education.

27

If I was persuing a job in the field that my qualification is in and somebody got the job over me using a fake qualification or bogdey resume, yes I would probably get upset. I just feel there are plenty of English teaching jobs out there and I honestly feel the university degree is over kill for teaching kids under 12 :s
Plus I do not see how a school could hire somebody with fake documents. They would still have to pass the government check?or are things different in Taiwan. I am working in Japan at the moment. I do not see how they could get away with it. The school would have to let them work without checking there visa? I am not a school owner/manager so I am not sure of the process.

As for the having more general knowledge than a person without a uni degree. I strongly disagree. Most of my friends do not hold a uni degree back in OZ but have far more general knowledge and common sense than alot of uni grads without any work experience fresh out of their parents house. I have one mate in particular that has more knowledge with computer programing than most IT uni grads but can not get a decent job because he doesn’t have a piece of paper. So now at 32 he has to go to uni and study stuff he already knows.

As for the bad attitude. Saying that a uni grad is going to have a better attitude. I havn’t seen it personally. Most have no working background. Sometimes I am glad that I started Uni at the age of 25, it gave me some life experience.

28

This thread is very much like the one Grasshopper started a while back in which he discovered that a teacher at his school was not qualified to teach English. Grasshopper was conflicted as to whether he should or shouldn’t tell his boss. I was one of the few people who felt that Grasshopper should have informed his boss about the other teacher.

So, it would probably not be too surprising to hear that I totally agree with IManIOU on this point. I think that people who come to Taiwan lacking the proper qualifications to teach a subject, such as English, and look for ways to “get around” having a degree in order to just make money, are cheating students and their parents.

I really hope Fred, if he really wants to be an English teacher in Taiwan, goes back to his home country and gets a degree.

29

[b]I am someone who has 3 years of Uni (money problems near the end) plus TESOL, but whom has also substituted in elementary and Highschools in Canada.

I have a legal ARC. I work my butt off teaching. I love it. It is what I am meant to do. My grammar has always been horrible, not my usage, just trying to remember what was what. Teaching grammar has also taught me better than my own teachers could.

I don’t particularly agree with people teaching whom are not qualified but as to that issue … if the ‘teacher’ has a way with students, the students like the that teacher … and the students learn. What is the problem?

Oh yes … here in Taiwan, it is actually illegal for any of us to be teaching English in a kindergarten now. So how so we deal with the demand from the parents who insist their children learn in English? The demand for teachers is huge in Taiwan.

I work at a school that has dropped from 12 to 7 foreign teachers. Our class sizes have increased from about 18 students to 25 or 26 in each class now. This is due mostly to the government only alloting ‘said number’ of ARC’s for foreign teachers.

My bottom line. I don’t have a masters … So close to my BA, but I have my TESOL and heaps of experience. I also have over 2 years experience teaching in Taiwan now as well. If you can do the job and you can do it to the degree it is meant to be done … I hope you get it.

If you are not happy teaching, then you are not meant to do it. You should be doing something else. Maybe another age group, or a different school. If you are happy, it will reflect in the children, teens or adults you teach!

Go forth and :slight_smile: and for goodness sakes … and enjoy your teaching time! For those of us who teach children, we are making a very big impression on and in their lives.[/b]

30

I have at this point been offered 2 jobs. With another, that I would consider highly likely to hire me, giving an answer soon. Given the legal requirements necessary for a work permit I haven’t decided to take either one yet. Two of these jobs have genuinely great kids, who I could really enjoy teaching. One of these jobs has kids who know grammar better than most people I know back home.

I just read some interesting stories on a thread about english teachers in Taiwan being “losers” which I found somewhat contrasting towards several of the opinions represented recently in this thread. However, I am genuinely enjoying the discourse, and would like to thank everyone for their input. I really don’t want to rip anyone off, or “steal” someone else’s job. At this point, I am trying to make the best out of my time here, and saw a need which perhaps I could help fulfill, while helping myself.

31

True, the documents have to pass the government check, but from my experience the people doing the checking are either idiots or uniformed. They are mystified by degrees printed in Latin (ie., like those from Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge), but readily accept those freshly printed fake degrees. They can’t tell the difference between a real university and a business college, have been fooled by 2-year certificates and diplomas from schools of massage therapy, and in general seem to know nothing about higher education in Western countries. Since their job is the verification of documents, you’d think it might occur to them that they should learn something about it.

32

[quote=“Fred”]I don’t have a degree, or a TESL certificate. I happen to be here in Taiwan and need to get a job. Naturally, as an American I was thinking of teaching English. All the postings for jobs and places I interview seem to want me to have a bachelor’s degree. As you might have geussed I have just made one up, and written it down on my resume. Does anyone know if they will actually check? Or can they?

I realize this isn’t entirely honest, but I do have a reasonable enough grasp on the English language to teach the alphabet, or basic grammar. I just never really made it to college. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.[/quote]

“As you might have geussed I have just made one up”

By the above quote, do you mean you just wrote down the name of a university and date of graduation on your application form or do you have a fake degree? With the former, the school that wants to hire you will not submit your documents without the original of your degree. With the latter, if caught, you will be deported.

33

So you want to teach children. Yet you are more interested in making money than telling the truth about your inability to meet the basic requirements of the government. Tell me how flat out lying would make you a good role model to young children? How good is it to lie to your employers who may have turned down other (qualified) candidates for you only for the truth to come and slap them in the face in a few more weeks when they apply for your work permit? I’m still having a hard time making the connection with how this is not wrong.

Mr Jones, so it’s okay for people to forge documents for work as long as it’s not in your career area? That’s mighty big of you. Yes the English teaching business has a lot of jobs, but the rub is in finding a quality school with steady work. If I am reading fred’s post correctly, he has found a few of these jobs, therefore eliminating them from the market for people who are actually able to take these jobs legally. When these employers discover that he isn’t able to meet the requirements for a work permit, they will have wasted weeks investing training and orientations for this guy only to have to search for an employee that they can actually hire and send through training again. Most places cannot afford to wate time like that. I think that if fred is in need of money, he should try getting into a more entrepreneurial job where he won’t be taking work from those who are not lying their way into a job. You might not think you need higher education to teach 12 and unders…I disagree, as I am currently teaching basic physics to 5th and 6th graders. I think someone who does not have a degree would be less likely to have taken college prep courses like physics and biology and therefore if duty called, would not have the background to conduct such courses. Teaching English is much more than teaching the alphabet. I know my students have asked me questions beyond English grammar that even with a degree, I need to look up the answers to be sure I am giving them the right info. Sure a degree isn’t necessarily an indicator that someone will be a successful teacher (Lord knows I’ve worked with degree holders, teacher’s college degree holders, who were less than desirable educators), but it’s a much better indicator than someone who is willing to forge documents just to make a little money.

Just my NT$0.67.

ImaniOU

34

Teaching English to foreign children is whole different ball park in my eyes. Under 12’s very rarely ask questions too difficult as they are barely putting full sentences together. Unless your students are of a higher standard than I have come into contact with. Even so, just say he is working in kindergarden schools? This requires a BA? :smiley:
I do know what you mean about being asked difficault questions. I have had couple 14 and 15 year old students that lived in the US and could speak quite fluent. They knew grammar rules better than myself :blush:
This forced me to do some self study to keep ahead. But like you said, even have the degree you still need to look up the rules. So this puts us degree holder in no better position. It comes down to the person at hand whether they are a good teacher and make the effort.
as far as the schools go.It sounds as though these schools have hired him without looking at the original documents. He has not stipulated that they even have hinted at looking at them. This is giving me the impression they probably won’t even apply for ARC and probably are paying him less and if he does the job well. They will take the risk of letting him stay and work. Just a guess though

35

I was hired by my school before I even arrived in Taiwan. They were interested in what I said I could do and by my interview, long before they had met me or seen physical proof of my qualifications. The work permit process begins after you start working for them. As for difficult questions, I can answer many of them because I had to study many different areas in order to get my degree (for that very reason that colleges have general ed. courses: to be knowledgeable about subjects other than your major) so I can answer some of their questions, but not all. Rather than not being able to answer any of their questions like someone with a general high school education would have. My students are rather advanced in their English, but even a lack of English ability doesn’t stop an inquisitive mind. You seriously underestimate children and their abilities to reason and learn about their world. I was not talking about grammar although having a background in linguistics does wonders for me when it comes to explaining grammar (!). They ask about all subject matters which teaching English can bring up since language is supposed to be taught within a context and often these contexts include ideas which may be unfamiliar to children.

If they have hired him, knowing full and well that he’s faking it, well, then it’s on his head. The ones that have no qualms about the legality of their teachers are not exactly the ones with low turnovers or reputations of treating their employees well. I guess it’s the game you play when you try to cheat your way in. :idunno:

36

Isn’t it illegal to work without a work permit? :unamused:

37

Some very high horses being ridden here.

I have met plenty of people with university degrees who were, how can I put this nicely? Let’s say that a university does not teach you to be a balanced, well-informed individual with any knowledge of anything outside of your own speciality.

Have recently met up with a well-known forumosan who is perfectly willing to admit that, although he knows far more than most people about his speciality, he is not a good teacher. And had lunch today with a guy who I know doesn’t have the piece of paper, but happens to be an excellent teacher. He’s not the first.

The degree is the only evidence the authorities have to prove that you are probably smart enough to get a handle on teaching - to be able to give it a fair go. Without this rule then any unemployed bricklayer who fancied a change of career could turn up here and get a teaching job. But having the required paperwork doesn’t automatically make you better qualified than the guy without, it just makes you easier to hire legally.

Believe it or not, plenty of very smart people who would be very good teachers have - for whatever reason - not obtained the piece of paper required by the Taiwan government. And if a degree is worth so much then why are so many people studying at universities around the world to work with operating systems created by a man who dropped out of university?

I don’t have the piece of paper that says I can drive in Taiwan, but I don’t do half the stupid things I see every day being done by people who have a piece of paper but no common sense or ability to do what they are doing properly.

It’s mostly about attitude. Imani has a great attitude to teaching, and would be a good teacher even without her qualifications. The extra study makes her better, but for most positions is not strictly necessary - and warrants more pay than a lot of schools offer.

Fred, if you’re contemplating this for a bit of a laugh - or simply for the money - and have no real interset then I’ll add my voice to those telling you to go away. But if you are prepared to give as you receive, to teach what you can and learn what you can, to respect the needs of your students, then go for it. There are plenty of illegal jobs out there and, while I always advocate being legal where possible, you shouldn’t have a problem finding and keeping a position if you are conscientious and sincere.

38

Around a quarter of the people in our countries these days have degrees. Anyone who genuinely wants to attend university can get into one of the thousands upon thousands in North America. It’s super-easy to take out student loans to pay for it (too easy, in fact - thousands of dollars in debt in your early 20s is a bad way to start off life). Look, I studied hard to earn my degree, and so did millions of others. This guy is trying to jump the queu. He’s trying to take the easy shortcut to a job he isn’t entitled by faking it. He hasn’t paid any of his dues. And people who have paid their dues tend to resent people who try to get to the same position without the same amount of sweat and toil. Nobody likes a queu-jumper. Sorry.

39

stragbasher, IMHO, if he was prepared to do the job then he would meet the basic qualification…a degree from a university.
My first trip to Asia was in 1990 and at the time I really wanted to stay in Japan and teach English but I didn’t have a degree. So I went back to the U.S. and went to school. Yes, it was a little more complicated than that but by the time I arrived in Taiwan two years ago I had a degree.
As for… “And if a degree is worth so much then why are so many people studying at universities around the world to work with operating systems created by a man who dropped out of university?”
Funny you should mention this because I started out as a computer operator, then systems manager, and finally ended up as a programmer - all before I went to the university (got most of my training in the army) but Bill Gates is an anomaly (as was my good fortune, although I was pretty naive at the time). :wink:

40

My point is that a degree doesn’t prove anything except that you put the time in.

And virtually anyone can put the time in, so what does it prove?

From the point of view of the people who issue the work permits, a degree is a useful benchmark. If you were able to put the time in, and keep your shit together for long enough to learn something, then you’re probably capable of holding down a job and doing it reasonably competently. In the absence of any better way to measure someone’s suitability as a teacher, it’s only natural for them to ask for some piece of paper to prove that you’re not just an out-of-owrk bricklayer.

But holding a degree doesn’t make you automatically a good teacher. You can study the theory of anything for years, study educational psychology if you like, but it won’t make you automatically a good teacher. Effective classroom management, showing up on time and sober every day, or even little things like how well you can make yourself heard, owe as much to personality as education.

You don’t need a degree to be a good teacher. Having a degree doesn’t make you a good teacher. You do need a degree to get a legal teaching job and, before you get all hostile to me, you should remember that I have posted many times about why people should work legally.

I am not advocating working illegally, but if you are denied the chance to work legally just because you haven’t wasted a few years studying something that will never be of any practical use to you then…

And as for this ‘queue jumping’ bullshit: Not everyone has (or had) to pay for education. In my day university education was funded by the British government. They paid my tuition fees AND gave me enough money to live on. People from my country, of my age, never had to take on debt to get a degree. Why should three-four years of drinking beer at the tax-payers expense make you more employable than the guy who spent those same years working and gaining practical experiences that are actually more useful as a teacher than a degree in sociology?

I think that resentment towards people who succeed without degrees stems largely from the realisation that someone else is doing as well as you, and therefore questioning the value of something that you feel is important. Get a life guys.