Famous US athlete indicted for dog fighting

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
And, the fact that one may emerge from such a background and later earn millions will not undo what one has learned growing up surrounded by poverty and violence.[/quote]

I agree that poverty brings about more violence. Money, or lack of I should say, always causes arguments which often turn into violence at home and on the street. Lack of money drives people to do stupid things which also turn into violence more often than not.

This said, I disagree that it is a learned thing. Poverty based violence is not a learned disposition, IMO. It’s a predicament.

Background is irrelevant in this case. This guy is rich.

Moreover, this is not people vs people violence, it’s animal abuse. Can you provide links that lower class income/ poverty is linked to animal abuse or dog fighting?

I doubt you’ll find anything like that, but if you do, I will certainly think about it.

I would think background was extremely relevant here. Color is not. His wealth came long after he learned how to treat animals, I would imagine. So, his wealth isn’t really relevant either, is it?

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]Well…just to add to the show here…it seems that Mr. Vick is also a…Democrat!..tee hee heee…

Something New: Young People Take Action – The DNC Presents a Sophisticated, Late-night, Hip Hop and Alternative Educational Experience

…now I’m not sayin’ that one thing is connected to another…but…?[/quote]

That’s a relief, so at least the dogs weren’t sexually abused in the name of “family values”? :laughing:

HG[/quote]

:roflmao:

[quote=“bobepine”]Background is irrelevant in this case. This guy is rich.

Moreover, this is not people vs people violence, it’s animal abuse. Can you provide links that lower class income/ poverty is linked to animal abuse or dog fighting?

I doubt you’ll find anything like that, but if you do, I will certainly think about it.[/quote]

How about this:

[quote]For many years, even after it was outlawed, dog fighting was considered an isolated animal welfare issue, and as such was ignored, denied, or disregarded by law enforcement agencies. However, leaders have come to realize that the clandestine culture of dog fighting is directly related with other crimes and community violence.

Peripheral criminal activities typically occurring include organized crime, racketeering, drug distribution, or gangs. Dog fighting events often serve to facilitate gambling and drug trafficking. As with other criminal enterprises, communities suffer from the unlawful activities which become an unwholesome part of the neighborhood culture.

Even seasoned law enforcement agents are consistently appalled by the atrocities that they encounter before, during, and after dog fights, children in those communities are routinely exposed to the unfathomable violence that is inherent within the blood sport and become conditioned to believe that the violence is normal. Those children are systematically desensitized to the suffering, and ultimately become criminalized . . .

The United States Humane Society estimates that more than 40,000 people across the country buy and sell fighting dogs and are involved in dogfighting activities. But authorities say those in dogfighting circles also are involved in a number of other crimes, including narcotics trafficking, illegal gambling and murder. In August 2006, a suspected dog fighter in Texas bled to death after he was shot by intruders who apparently intended to torture him into revealing where he had hidden $100,000 wagered in a high-stakes dog match.

The Chicago Sun-Times reported that an analysis during a study by the College of Law at Michigan State University found that, in more than two dozen raids on dogfights, in virtually every instance police also seized illegal narcotics and weapons. Police seized $250,000 in cash during another 2004 raid in Covington, Georgia. “Law enforcement is realizing it’s a real community problem, intertwined with other crimes such as drugs and gambling,” John Goodwin, an official with the Humane Society stated in an interview for the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot newspaper published in June 2007.

Many communities in widespread areas across the United States are aggressively targeting dog fighting by coordinating local and regional dog fighting task forces. “It’s clear that when you have dogfighting, drugs and gambling and other criminal subcultures follow,” according to Mark Plowden, a spokesman for the South Carolina Attorney General’s Office, which in 2004 created a dogfighting task force. In Chicago, Illinois, a special police unit is devoted to investigating cases of abuse due to the connection between dog fighting and other gang crimes. In 2005, the police in Los Angeles, California formed an Animal Cruelty Task Force, leading to prosecutions of gang members there for animal abuse.[/quote]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighti … ted_States

Indians?

Apparently, there’s a link to urban gangsta hiphop, prison culture with dogfighting, drugs, and whores. I was reading articles where it appeared that other black sports stars thought there wasn’t anything wrong, like Iverson “it’s just a dog” or Portis “People should mind their own business.” So maybe it is a race thing when black folks don’t care about animal cruelty (/half-sarcasm).

Now apparently, other black professional athletes are defending Vick. Like Clinton Portis, Chris Samuels, Iverson. They all seem to think dogfighting is not a big deal even if it’s illegal, because, hey, dogs are just animals. Never mind that these dogfights often go hand in hand with drug possession or gun possession and illegal gambling.

[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“bobepine”]Background is irrelevant in this case. This guy is rich.

Moreover, this is not people vs people violence, it’s animal abuse. Can you provide links that lower class income/ poverty is linked to animal abuse or dog fighting?

I doubt you’ll find anything like that, but if you do, I will certainly think about it.[/quote]

How about this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighti … ted_States[/quote]

OK, well, I thought about it. You have valid points, and you supported them quite well, IMO. I stand corrected.

I don’t like the idea of it, though. It’s truly sad that poverty can somehow lead to the abuse of those of us (the four legged ones) who will never carry dimes (or dime bags) in their pockets… Dog eats dog and all… :s

I would think background was extremely relevant here. [/quote]Isn’t this thread about the indictment of someone caught for abusing animals? What does that asshole’s background have to do with the indictment?[quote=“jdsmith”]His wealth came long after he learned how to treat animals, I would imagine.[/quote]There was a thread a while back about soldiers throwing stones at a crippled dog. If you want to discuss either torturing animals is something that is learned independently and apart from common sense and humaneness, I suggest you dig out that thread. We disagreed then, and I don’t think we will agree this time either.

Yeah, I been following the story closely also.

Michael Vick is also known as Ron Mexico, who was accused of knowningly spreading Herpes to unsuspecting women.

Abusing animals and spreading STDs? I have several suggestions if anyone is interested in having the punishment fit the crimes. :smiling_imp:

Michael’s brother, Marcus, is also a real work of art. He was kicked off the team for this:

break.com/index/marcusvick.html

His mentality and disgusting behavior probably have something to do with his background. That’s all MT is saying.

Why is that? Lucrative contracts are at stake if they did. Even if Vick gets off, he’s screwed up all that he’s gained.

Why his background is relevant to an extent it’s not the primary reason he choose to involve himself in such an activity. At what point does one get to stop using “its my xyz” that’s caused this as reason for not being responsible for one’s actions?

MT you have valid points, but it still comes across as scapegoating.

Why is it scapegoating? I hold him 100% personally accountable for his actions. If he’s found guilty I believe he should be harshly punished and shouldn’t get any special treatment because (a) he’s a rich sports star or (b) he may have had a tough childhood surrounded by crime, poverty and an absent father. I don’t believe those should figure at all into the determination of his guilt or his sentence. They are no excuse at all.

But, I do believe his background may help explain why he would be cruel, ignorant and stupid enough to do the things he is accused of, if he is in fact guilty. Actually, he’s not just a famous athlete. His 10 year, $130M contract makes him the highest paid player in the NFL. To rise from the ghetto to that level of fame and fortune is phenomenal. One might think he’d be grateful for his fantastic success and cherish it and be careful not to blow it. But he apparently has blown it big time due to incredibly stupid and asinine behavior. It’s interesting to ponder how one could be so stupid and blow it so badly. His background doesn’t excuse his behavior at all, but it may help explain why he committed such stupid behavior.

MT does have very valid points and he’s supported them well.

But, as MT also says, the background is not an excuse. Its not a cause.

Not everyone who grows up poor and in a depressed area grows up to be cruel to animals. Oprah W. grew up in a poor family and had many obstacles to success in her way… but, she is seriously mourning the loss of one of her several dogs that she keeps as pets and which she apparently adores.

Do you know for sure about his background? Otherwise that’s a bunch of terrible assumptions.

HG

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Do you know for sure about his background? Otherwise that’s a bunch of terrible assumptions.

HG[/quote]

I don’t know for sure, but here’s what Wikipedia says.

[quote]Michael Vick was born to Brenda Vick (16) and Michael Boddie (17) on June 26, 1980, in Newport News, Virginia. His parents married five years later, by which time they had four children, Michael’s older sister Christina, and younger siblings Marcus and Courtney. The children elected to continue to use their mother’s name as their surname after their parents wed.

The children grew up living in Ridley Circle, a public housing project in a financially depressed and crime-ridden neighborhood located in the East End section of the port city on Hampton Roads, not far from its massive shipyard and coal piers. Their mother worked jobs such at a local Kmart and driving a school bus part-time.

During the children’s early years, Vick’s father had a job which required a lot of travel. . . [/quote]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Vick

Then I’m afraid they are terrible assumptions reflecting nothing but your own personal bias and prejudice,

HG

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Then I’m afraid they are terrible assumptions reflecting nothing but your own personal bias and prejudice,

HG[/quote]

:s . . . . :idunno: . . . . :laughing:

Why is it scapegoating? I hold him 100% personally accountable for his actions. If he’s found guilty I believe he should be harshly punished and shouldn’t get any special treatment because (a) he’s a rich sports star or (b) he may have had a tough childhood surrounded by crime, poverty and an absent father. I don’t believe those should figure at all into the determination of his guilt or his sentence. They are no excuse at all.

But, I do believe his background may help explain why he would be cruel, ignorant and stupid enough to do the things he is accused of, if he is in fact guilty. Actually, he’s not just a famous athlete. His 10 year, $130M contract makes him the highest paid player in the NFL. To rise from the ghetto to that level of fame and fortune is phenomenal. One might think he’d be grateful for his fantastic success and cherish it and be careful not to blow it. But he apparently has blown it big time due to incredibly stupid and asinine behavior. It’s interesting to ponder how one could be so stupid and blow it so badly. His background doesn’t excuse his behavior at all, but it may help explain why he committed such stupid behavior.[/quote]

I agree with HGC. There’s no excuse for his treatment of animals but you are really critical about him continually pointing out that it’s his background for his problems. Being exposed to such an enviroment does make a difference but is not the end result, as TM points out with Oprah.

Why do you keep focusing on the man’s background? Are you trying to go for some sort of compassion for the man or are you saying that anyone from that background is bound to be suspect because of being raised in a poor enviroment? What’s your point? That every male from the ghetto is bound to be part of this activity?

Why do you keep asking why I mentioned his background?

Not really. I don’t feel the least bit sorry for him. He appears to be a cruel, insensitive asshole who has committed terrible crimes, causing immense suffering. But I’m trying to understand who he is and why he might have committed such stupid and terrible acts.

Not at all. Of course not. You keep suggesting that that’s what I’m implying, but that’s completely untrue. Obviously the overwhelming majority of people who grow up surrounded by crime and poverty don’t grow up to be violent assholes and many such people grow up to be exemplary citizens. No one should be suspect because they came from crappy circumstances.

No, you’re twisting it around backwards. I’m not saying all who come from A become B. I’m saying it helps to understand why he is B, because he came from A.

Would you be surprised to learn that a rapist or pedophile had been molested as a child? Would you be surprised to learn that an abusive husband had an abusive father? Or an alcoholic came from a family of substance abusers? You shouldn’t be, because I believe that’s an extremely common occurence. Of course not all children of molesters, abusers or druggies/alchies will grow up fucked up. Many will rise above that, break the chain, break free from their past. But it’s not surprising to learn that one who commits those acts grew up with them in his/her childhood. There is a link.

Likewise, it’s not surprising that a rich and famous guy who seems to have it all, but ends up blowing it all because it turns out he’s totally cruel and violent and is committing terrible felonies that cause immense pain and suffering, started out life in such crappy circumstances. Perhaps some of his friends or siblings broke free, but it does help explain who he is and why he did what he did. That’s all.