Figuring Out What You Need, Not What You Want

Life Dating & Relationships
1

I was going to post this on Facebook as a note, but I don’t think it would serve me well if the girl in question sees it (she could misinterpret my meaning), and I don’t think I’ll get the discussion I want there. Also, I think I feel more comfortable bearing my soul to strangers behind a computer screen, rather than people who know me. At least for now.

[quote]Some things I’ve been thinking about a lot, and that have been milling around in my head over and over. A realisation that has been within my grasp, but like a butterfly that continuously escapes my grasp, it remained elusive until someone on one of the Taiwan forums I frequent placed it in my hand without intending to. On a subject concerning [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/taiwanese-princesses/68058/117 Princesses (公主病)[/url] one poster had this to say:

[i]The Taiwanese Princess? Is she any different from the American or British Princess? A female who has been raised with certain boundaries and rewards for certain behaviour will become a princess. The male equal is the Prince who is often referred to as the bastard, again his raising has put him into this position. I’ve had my experiences with women who have displayed the princess syndrome and I have male friends who are bastards.

I’m always left with the feeling of why would you want to play a game, hide your ultimate feeling in order to achieve some other gain? Never have I played a game in a relationship and I can’t see why. The purpose of dating and meeting people is to find someone who suits you. Eventually you do (no matter how long it takes). Never hide from your true feeling, and that is to have someone who loves you. However loving someone is not a natural action on it’s own. The Hollywood ideal is chased by many but, as the early fireworks of romance flicker out, so does the Hollywood movie end, and you then have to work on the real relationship. This is where the deal ends or begins. One of the most rewarding things in life is to have someone to commit to and commit back. Never base a relationship primarily on looks, this is something we are all guilty of doing, often with bad results! Remember your soul [inner feelings] will tell you if things are right, it is up to you to either listen to, or let your ego rule (main problem with princesses and princes).

I personally know it can be hard to walk away from a bad relationship because of the ego telling you, you should be with that person but, deep down you know it doesn’t work - and I doubt any of us have ever been wrong? Listen to your heart [inner feelings] not your ego (or for men your dick). Happiness is more important than having, an attractive women, or man, who spends their entire time seeing the world from an ego-centric point of view but, makes you look good because of the way they look! We would be far happier if we shared our lives and feelings with someone as an equal and not an attractive accessory.[/i]

The second paragraph really resonated with me. Especially:

…why would you want to play a game, hide your ultimate feeling in order to achieve some other gain?..find someone who suits you…have someone who loves you…However loving someone is not a natural action on it’s own…One of the most rewarding things in life is to have someone to commit to and commit back. Never base a relationship primarily on looks, this is something we are all guilty of doing, often with bad results!..

I have been guilty of pursuing relationships on completely unsound grounds on at least two huge occasions, and dismissing at least one awesome partner for the wrong reasons. This is a bit of an over simplification of things, and those that really know me will know the details (not the utter shite rumours). Over the last 15 years I have often wondered what’s wrong with me. Where did I go wrong? How did I fail? Why do I get judged based on what previous people did to women I have feelings for?

For the longest time I thought there was something terribly wrong with me. Some defect in my personality. And then I saw the guy above’s [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/taiwanese-princesses/68058/119 up post[/url]:

It’s not easy for sure. I learnt the hard way, felt a lot of pain (by making bad choices). I took a year out of the whole relationship/dating thing to sort it out. The first thing that happened was I heard someone say in a random conversation; It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need. Somehow that sunk into my mind (thick skull). From that point I figured out what I actually needed, not what I wanted from a relationship. Easy to say, harder to actually do. Anyway I reckon we all get there in the end. I will point out that I’m now married and very happy. I have what I need, in terms of a loving relationship.

This just stuck out: It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

The lights went on.

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

Someone I love said this to me:
“I don’t trust you.”
Although, I had given no reason not to have this trust.

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

“I don’t trust that you haven’t cheated on me since we’ve been together.”
Although, I had never given any reasons for this distrust and I had been completely faithful. And even if I had wanted to, which I didn’t, I never had the time or the opportunity. This left me feeling hurt. In the face of this, I felt vulnerable and defenseless. And worse, the irony is that I have been cheated on, lied to by other people, yet I trust the person I’m with unconditionally, until given reason not to. I felt naive.

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

“I don’t trust that you will make me happy.”
Yet I was given no real reasons for why this is so. This frustrated me, as I tried everything to make her happy.

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

“I don’t feel I can live the life that I want to live.”
When you truly love someone, this leaves you feeling powerless. Some words cut deeper than swords.

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. In the words of John Lennon, “Love is all we need.”

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

What really worries me, is that soon I may not believe any of this anymore. One day, I will become so jaded and cynical that I won’t recognise the person I see in the mirror every morning. But how can those words not be true? What is there, if not for love? What’s the point without it?

It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.

I know what I want. I know who I want. But, “It’s not about what you want, it’s about what you need.”

I need to figure out what I need.[/quote]

I don’t know what I need beyond what Steviebike said here: “to have someone who loves you” and “someone to commit to and commit back”.

2

Perhaps you can go backwards and use process-elimination to begin your journey towards “what you need”.

I’m positive it was you who posted a response to one of my posts about sitting in the living room with your child waiting for your significant other to come home.
That is definitely what you do not need.

You need someone who will be sitting at home with you and your child.

3

[quote=“Lili”]Perhaps you can go backwards and use process-elimination to begin your journey towards “what you need”.

I’m positive it was you who posted a response to one of my posts about sitting in the living room with your child waiting for your significant other to come home.
That is definitely what you do not need.

You need someone who will be sitting at home with you and your child.[/quote]
You’re right. And she eventually didn’t come home. But that’s another story, and another thread. And I thought I had finally found someone who would “be sitting at home with me and my (our) child(ren).” But … as described by her quotes in the OP (that seem to come up every few weeks) … :idunno:

4

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“Lili”]Perhaps you can go backwards and use process-elimination to begin your journey towards “what you need”.

I’m positive it was you who posted a response to one of my posts about sitting in the living room with your child waiting for your significant other to come home.
That is definitely what you do not need.

You need someone who will be sitting at home with you and your child.[/quote]
You’re right. And she eventually didn’t come home. But that’s another story, and another thread. And I thought I had finally found someone who would “be sitting at home with me and my (our) child(ren).” But … as described by her quotes in the OP (that seem to come up every few weeks) … :idunno:[/quote]

Well… a Magic 8 Ball is cheaper than a first date. :thumbsup:

5

A lot of things are cheaper, but not necessarily better.

6

Hey Mr B,

I hear what you are saying. Two things come to mind. One is a well known metaphor. The mind is like a pond and if you stir through it, you can no longer see the clearness of the pond. [if] You ask yourself too many questions about this and it [the mind] will become unclear. You know what you need, you just need to stop and let it come to you. I can go on about this stuff all day! So sorry if I get boring.

The second thing, is kind of, about positiveness, projection and laws of attraction. I just get uncomfortable talking about this, as it is very easy to misunderstand or use it for negative reasons.

Seriously, take your time, let it work itself out, enjoy what you can and hold steady on the rest.

7

You can’t always get what you want
You can’t always get what you want
You can’t always get what you want
But if you try sometimes, well you might find
You get what you need!

8

I doubt I can offer any helpful advice - I’m really just posting because I was struck by how much of that is similiar to my own experience these last few months. I’ve even heard some of those exact same phrases. In my case, my only remaining option was to walk away from it - we’ve been separated for a while, although we’re still talking. The main reason I did that is because I was becoming someone I didn’t even recognise anymore - someone I didn’t want to be. I do recommend reading a book, the emotionally abusive relationship (Engel,B.); some of it is waffle and pop psychology, and I doubt it applies specifically to your situation, but there are some parts of it that do explicitly address the “what do I need?” question, and mostly it’s a good book with plenty of practical suggestions - things to do, things to think about.

Steviebike has definitely got his head sorted. “To have someone who loves you” and “someone to commit to and commit back” is pretty much all there is to it. It’s just surprising how difficult it is to find that - in oneself, if we’re honest, as well as in other people. I wholeheartedly agree with Steviebike that it’s crucial to take a break between relationships (something I’ve rarely done) in order to grieve and get “you” back again. It’s very hard to think straight about what you need, when you’re spending a lot of your time thinking about what someone else needs, especially if that person is a bit … needy.

Not much point quoting Mr Jagger, though … he never had much trouble getting what he wanted or needed.

9

Bis, all of those things she’s saying have very little to do with you or your behavior. They’re about her fears, and she’s expressing them in a way that makes sense to her. I’m not entirely sure if it’s Taiwanese or female. I think it’s a bit of both. Anyway, by taking it literally, you’re allowing yourself to feel a lot of pain that I highly doubt she intended. You’re supposed to figure this out without her giving you a guide, and especially without taking what she says literally. It’s usually part of the bargain when you fall in love with a lady.

It’s a pretty corny book in many ways, but anyone who has been married or partnered up in a hetero relationship for a while will gain a lot of insight by reading John Gray’s Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus.

And bis, the phrase you heard someone say is quite romantic (and you know you’re a hopeless romantic!), but need is about the worst thing for a relationship. “I needed this. I didn’t get it. I’m sad, powerless, and disappointed.” Is that the way you want to live your life? How about replacing a focus on what you need with a focus on loving the person you’re with? How about replacing “I need this and if I don’t get it I’ll feel bad” with a strong desire to get what you want and a willingness to work for it, but an attitude of acceptance and peace if it doesn’t come right away? That’s a winning formula for most relationships, at least the successful ones I’ve seen.

That being said, I think there are situations where we desire/want stuff that isn’t good for us (e.g I’d love a giant cheeseburger with fries right now). If what you want is someone who is going to make it really hard for you to maintain a sense of self-confidence and peace, then I’d give that particular want up before it gets more complicated. And I certainly am not telling you to be a doormat. If someone can’t show respect to you or doesn’t love your son, etc., these are principles that shouldn’t be violated. Don’t stay with anyone who doesn’t love you deeply and can’t show respect for you and the people you love.

I think what some people mean by “my relationship gives me what I need” is really “my relationship is healthy and I feel loved, so I don’t even think about being unfulfilled.” Bis, I’ve never met an emotionally healthy woman who worshiped her man 24/7 and who was attentive to all of his needs. Can you imagine the pressure?

10

I read that book. Dog poo. Read a barrow full of various self-help books and all are utter shite and I couldn’t recommend one, unless you want a good laugh. The last one was to do with the power of attraction (given to me as a gift,) which basically said positive thoughts will get you what you want (nothing about what you need though). I don’t believe that, although I believe in positive thinking, I just know it won’t bring you a new car by just being positive!

Need is not a romantic statement! I’m not particularly romantic TBH. The need comes from within you, it’s not meant to be externalised and projected onto either a person or relationship. That would end up a disaster!! What you need is about gaining a perspective about what you accept, this will vary from individual to individual. For me it was about a balance (not going to go deep into it here). I think you have to learn what you need first and that takes time (a long time, for me about a year). Anyway NEED is just a bloody word. What it refers to is the innate desire to find happiness (above and beyond the obvious suffering which can never be avoided). That is no easy feat. Need can only be truly answered if your prepared to drop all the bullshit! Anyway I’m boring myself so I’m going to stop!

11

I read that book. Dog poo. Read a barrow full of various self-help books and all are utter shite and I couldn’t recommend one, unless you want a good laugh. The last one was to do with the power of attraction (given to me as a gift,) which basically said positive thoughts will get you what you want (nothing about what you need though). I don’t believe that, although I believe in positive thinking, I just know it won’t bring you a new car by just being positive!

Need is not a romantic statement! I’m not particularly romantic TBH. The need comes from within you, it’s not meant to be externalised and projected onto either a person or relationship. That would end up a disaster!! What you need is about gaining a perspective about what you accept, this will vary from individual to individual. For me it was about a balance (not going to go deep into it here). I think you have to learn what you need first and that takes time (a long time, for me about a year). Anyway NEED is just a bloody word. What it refers to is the innate desire to find happiness (above and beyond the obvious suffering which can never be avoided). That is no easy feat. Need can only be truly answered if your prepared to drop all the bullshit! Anyway I’m boring myself so I’m going to stop![/quote]

I don’t think we disagree with each other, except over the value of John Gray’s book. I admit that I skimmed it–it was too mawkish for me, nearly puked in a few places, but the parts about male/female communication patterns made sense to me and matched my experience.

And I rather like your trousers in the photo, FWIW.

12

[quote=“Tomas”]I don’t think we disagree with each other, except over the value of John Gray’s book. I admit that I skimmed it–it was too mawkish for me, nearly puked in a few places, but the parts about male/female communication patterns made sense to me and matched my experience.

And I rather like your trousers in the photo, FWIW.[/quote]

Agreed. I’ve read worse than Men are from Mars… It just all ends up becoming confusing, hard to actually apply to real life, and this is the purpose of those books! I think the people were talking about here are remarkably intelligent [clever bunch on this website] and with the facts they have about their lives, they can make the changes themselves, they know what they are, the really hard thing is doing them. I honestly think words matter little when you actually have to make real-life decisions. Those decisions will affect lives and one has to think very carefully. Good luck I say.

The male/female communication thing is played up too much. We both have the same drive for happiness. For me, women are from earth and so are men! [Stating the obvious here] Women’s function are different to men. We live in a complicated society today and we often swap some gender roles - no problem for me - and maybe people get confused? An interesting fact about communication is that, 70% is non-verbal - although this is debated - so we can often say things but, the body suggests something else? We have to be careful, ask questions and use our judgement as this guides us, not some mystical spiritual guide thing. Again I’m rambling, I just enjoy this kind of subject.

As for the trousers LOL! I have pirate identity problems.

13

Here’s where we differ, though. My girl makes me want to be a better person. The things she wants me to change are things I also want to change. Things like being more financially responsible. And I think a lot of her fear in that I may not be able to provide the kind of life she wants to live may be based on reality, more than I’d like to admit. Her two biggest issues/things she needs or wants are:

  1. She wants her life partner to be able to provide for her, i.e. keep her safe, feel stable, that sort of thing. Without going too in depth about it, someone who can provide life’s necessities (a decent home, financially provide for the family and hopefully take yearly trips somewhere outside Taiwan). Which woman doesn’t want that?
  2. A calm, peaceful home life free from arguing and fighting.

Truth be told, I want those self same things, or to be able to provide them. In terms of number 1, I understand her doubts. I’m an English teacher, a single father and up to recently unable to save money because of too few hours and all the other buxiban related stuff we’ve posted about exhaustively on here. However, I now have my scheduling sorted out and will be able to live and save around 2-20k/month depending. So, things have definitely improved there. But still. Is it enough? Even I have my worries about this, so how can I blame her for being concerned?
As to 2, she also has a good case. I can get quite emotional (read, quick to anger and argue, and I often don’t know when to shut up). However, she’s the first person in my life that I can honestly say has a very calming influence on me. With her, I manage to control my temper, remain calm and speak calmly, but she has seen me lose it (slightly) with someone else (nothing serious, but still). This freaks her out, and understandably so.

I really need to be able to prove to her (and myself) that I can provide for a family sufficiently, and that I can provide a calm and peaceful home life. But, it’s easier said than done.
As to her doubts of my infidelity, I don’t know what I can possibly do their, except win her trust over time. I think her fears here originate from her first ex (she’s only had two bfs/serious relationships before me, as she’s only 28 - the first was 3 years long and the second 4), whom she lived with during her undergraduate studies. He finally broke up with her and then she found out he had been cheating on her with her best friend for the last year of their relationship.

Thing is, I really believe she does love me and would commit, but for the issues described above. And I guess her issues are very valid, but how to get past that?

Needy. Yes, that quite often describes the type of girls we read about here. My girl is nothing like that, which is one of the reasons I love her. She didn’t want to get into a relationship in a hurry at all, and described our relationship as “seeing someone/dating” in the Western sense for a long time. It took a long time to get her to the point where she would describe me as her bf, and even then vary sparingly, always insisting we should “take our time and not hurry things”. She’s never pressured me with the “Do you love me?” questions and all the other stuff local girls quite often unload on you from the start. And although she has said she misses me when we’re apart, and “I love you” on occasion, it’s very rare to hear her say so. But her body language and physical clues definitely say a lot more than her mouth does.

You know, reading what you wrote here really opened my eyes. I believe you’re exactly right. When I try to engage her about these things she gets angry, and I think it’s because of the reasons you mention. She’s expressing her fears, and I’m trying to vocalise how silly they are, which seems to be the wrong thing to do. I should be “figuring these things out” as you said. But how do I do that? How can I really show her that I can live up to her expectations, take care of her, provide for her and give her a safe, peaceful and loving home?
It’s beginning to dawn on me that not being able to show these things is probably what led me into the deep end in my marriage before I met her. It’s given me a better understanding into why I’m divorced, but I still don’t really know how to show or do these things.

Which phrase, Tomas? And yes, I am a hopeless romantic! :laughing:
And no, I don’t want to live my life feeling “sad, powerless and disappointed”. I started this thread looking for answers, on points in the right direction, because between you and me, I think I’ve finally found that one special person I could be with to the end of my days and be happy all the way. I just wish I knew how to do it! I really don’t want to bugger this up, as I’ve so often done in the past.
I really love what you said here: How about replacing a focus on what you need with a focus on loving the person you’re with? How about replacing “I need this and if I don’t get it I’ll feel bad” with a strong desire to get what you want and a willingness to work for it, but an attitude of acceptance and peace if it doesn’t come right away?
:bow:

I don’t think she fits that description. Her only issues are the ones I mentioned above. She’s really loving in her actions, but she has her fears, as you called them. She’s brilliant with my son and loves him dearly. Truth be told, I don’t fully believe I’m good enough for her, and perhaps that’s my fear!

She’s the most amazing woman I’ve ever met. I would give her the world, if I could.

14

Swap Number 1 for Number 2. I would rather have a shitty home, nothing much in the way of belongings but, be happy in my home with the ones I love.

Why worry about being able to provide? You are doing your best with the situation you have in front of you (i.e; you are providing something). If you two are committed and view yourselves as equal, then gaining a better life is down to both of you. If she can earn money, then this will help your shared savings? Communication is the key, you need to express your feelings without being emotional, show the rational reason for the way things should be in your shared life. If things are not equal then you are going to have to ask yourself if this is acceptable and the right place for you to invest you emotional energy?

As for the anger. I came from a very troubled past and one of my biggest problems was anger. I was a really bad kid, proper bad boy. It took me a long time to put a perspective on anger (past 10 years). I have found as I got older I wanted to fight less. Now I hate it completely, it’s such a negative energy and I feel it ages you! Literally from the stress. This is the hardest thing to crack because it is rooted in your life right back to childhood. Again you need to talk about it with your partner, you need her help and she needs to understand.

Nobody is perfect. I think you are giving yourself a hard time. Don’t force things. Good luck buddy.

15

Wot Steviebike said.

Again, take my comments with a very large pinch of salt since I’m in no position to give advice. Just a few thoughts. Yes, yours definitely sounds like a keeper. You may well have your issues, but at least you know what they are and you’re doing something about them. Most of us never even get that far. Obviously, I don’t know the girl, but it sounds like maybe she has hers too. She shouldn’t be getting angry when you “try to engage her” if you’re genuinely trying to figure out what the issue is and how to make it better. Women do sometimes expect us to be mindreaders, but there’s nothing wrong with asking for verbal clarification! I’ve known plenty of women (including one I was too stupid to realise was a catch) who were excellent communicators and could express anger or dissatisfaction without throwing a wobbly - or who would be able to figure out my clumsy attempts, and steer the conversation.

Possibly 2 is 60%+ up to you to fix, but 1 is really for her to deal with. No other person can make you feel safe, stable, etc. That’s in your own head. Of course, your partner can make it worse by being an asshole, but when things are good, it’s up to you to recognise that they are good. There could be something in her past that makes her afraid to trust people, and she needs to work that out. I’m not convinced her ex-bf is the reason - realistically, it’s not unusual for that kind of thing to happen when a relationship is already over but neither party will admit it, especially in Taiwan where people stay with unsuitable partners to avoid loss of face.

Also, most men do feel a need to provide for their family, and it sounds like you’re doing all that anyone could expect. But again, it’s probably not healthy if she feels that’s crucially important, or a vital component of the trust that she lacks. That implies that if you ever become unable to provide the material things she wants, she’s likely to lose respect for you rather than supporting you. I might have misunderstood your point (and I’m not suggesting she’s only with you for material reasons) but it would be worth discussing her feelings about that. Most of us are very hung up on material needs, but many people find life simpler and more enjoyable when they let go of some of that. I’m sure GiT could weigh in on that topic.

16

[quote=“bismarck”]…Her two biggest issues/things she needs or wants are:

  1. She wants her life partner to be able to provide for her, i.e. keep her safe, feel stable, that sort of thing. Without going too in depth about it, someone who can provide life’s necessities (a decent home, financially provide for the family and hopefully take yearly trips somewhere outside Taiwan). Which woman doesn’t want that?
  2. A calm, peaceful home life free from arguing and fighting.

Truth be told, I want those self same things, or to be able to provide them. In terms of number 1, I understand her doubts. I’m an English teacher, a single father and up to recently unable to save money because of too few hours and all the other buxiban related stuff we’ve posted about exhaustively on here. However, I now have my scheduling sorted out and will be able to live and save around 2-20k/month depending. So, things have definitely improved there. But still. Is it enough? Even I have my worries about this, so how can I blame her for being concerned?[/quote]
It really sounds like you want this relationship to work, and I sincerely wish you the best.

However, I’d say 2-20k/month left over after expenses ain’t enough.

Let’s say you manage to put away on average 11k a month.
IF you’re paying off a mortgage, and NOT taking anual overseas trips, and you DON’T make any bad investment decisions, and you DON’T have any unexpected major expenses or health problems, you should be able to accumulate enough to live modestly when you retire without paying rent.
Then at least you will have provided a decent home and financial stability.
But I think the holidays will have to be taken within Taiwan. (Unless you want to combine work and travel - and as an English teacher, why not?)

Otherwise, saving 2-20k/month is not enough.
(Generally speaking, of course. I have no idea how much you’ve already saved, how many years of working life you have left, and who knows how long they will live once they have retired.)

You can work more hours and save more money, but the extra pressure that puts on you will increase the risk of not satisfying the second condition.
We often think we’re not putting pressure on ourselves, or we might think we can deal with it, but when stress levels go up just a little, it somehow becomes much more difficult to let those little annoyances (that inevitably occur in a relationship) slide.

Lots of those little problems between couples are related to money too.

Just an opinion from a complete stranger (who is actually not very good with money and therefore tends to budget conservatively).

Perhaps you should be speaking to a financial planner.
You might be able to ease some of your (and her) concerns.

17

I see what you’re saying, but I erred there. I meant 20-30k/month, not 2-20k. Sorry. :blush:
Still, I’m not sure that’s enough either. Living in Tainan, I’d feel a lot better if I could earn between 80-100k/month, which would allow me to save between 45-65k/month. Apart from her fears, that would make me feel a lot better too. I am looking into some other options without increasing the number of teaching hours, and some other things I’d like to do (apart from or in addition to teaching). But right now I’m just trying to be more responsible financially, less wasteful and save more.