quote:Originally posted by ABCguy24:
You're a moron plain and simple..comparing Taiwanese and Chinese to people from Borneo or as inferior in mindset shows your true agenda. The only thing i'm happy about concerning your existance is that you aren't further polluting the U.S. with your insipid thoughts.
Taiwanese here compare themselves to “dirty” Indonesians and Filipinos all the time. But I didn’t compare Taiwanese to Borneo headhunters…YOU did. So…BITE ME! And bring me another order of egg rolls!
Btw…the native american population in the U.S. numbered 7 million at one point during the colonial era. I suppose all those native americans just upped and disappeared right?
I’m sorely tempted to ignore any further points you introduce “mai long dong” simply because you’re an acknowledged racist on this board.
ABCgay24, where do you get your figures? Most demographics I’ve seen show the pre-columbian population of North America to be only about 1.5 million.
And about ignoring me? Oh, WAHHHH! PLEASE DON’T! I’M CRUSHED! BROKEN HEARTED! Whimper…my life will never be the same…
quote:Originally posted by LittleIron:
I'm avoiding the subject? You mean my original subject of your the comment that you made that sounds very racist? The one I still haven't gotten an answer too?
It had absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand and just felt like a thinly disguised ad hominem attack at the time. This is why I chose to ignore it…
quote:
I simply disagree with the way you put things in other's mouths, or at least assume if they say one thing, that it means they think think another way as well. Perhaps you missed the fact that I stated that I believe in terms of economics and general standard of living, Taiwan is a first world country in my first post.. I'm sorry if you can't accept the fact that I also said I believe Taiwan society still has some issues to work out (and, no, me beleiving that Taiwan has issues doesn't mean I don't think the US has major issues as well...).
Looking back at my posts with you Iron i’ll concede that it got heated for little reason. I don’t have much of an issue with what you originally typed in your post concerning Taiwan. It was more of your bringing up irrelevant issues concerning my supposed “racism” in this forum that was the catalyst for my response.
quote:
*Everybody else says racist things (on this forum), so it's ok if we do too.
*All white westerners lump all asians together in a demeaning stereotype, and look down on them and their culture.
*Therefore Asians should do the same.
*The entire ‘white Western world’ actively tries to keep Asia from developing (through tactics such as divide and conquer politics).
Please tell me you don’t think these things, because it looks pretty clear that you do. Hopefully I’m mistaken.
Again I don’t recall any blatantly “racist” things that i’ve said. My comments regarding the way asians are viewed on this forum is not incorrect. I lurked here for quite awhile before actually making my first post. I read a lot of the rhetoric espoused by the forum users here that cleary did come across as pretentious denigrating attitudes against asians. Quite a few forum posters such as MaiLongdong are pretty straight forward unabashed closet racists.
Also your position is utterly naive if you think western nations haven’t collaborated to screw over developing countries. I can break out my copy of The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew K. Brzezinski again and quote some more relevant incidences from the cold war onward that illustrate this. I can even cite several instances where the World bank in collaboration with western corporations were planning to use third world countries as waste dumping grounds. The rationale behind this? They claimed dollar for dollar human life in Africa/Asia was judged as being worth “less” than a european western life.
quote:Originally posted by ABCguy24:
I can even cite several instances where the World bank in collaboration with western corporations were planning to use third world countries as waste dumping grounds. The rationale behind this? They claimed dollar for dollar human life in Africa/Asia was judged as being worth "less" than a european western life.
DAMN! REALLY??? That sounds just like the ROC negotiating with the Marshall Islands to dump nuclear waste there…you know the aborigines on Lan-yu are tired of it being dumped on THEIR Island. And let’s not forget Formosa Plastics dumping all that mercury waste on the beaches in Cambodia…
“By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.”
You’re right I was wrong…it’s actually 12 million not just 7 million.
Another source in case you try to discredit my first link…
“By mass-execution prior to the arrival of Columbus the land defined as the 48 contiguous states of America numbered in excess of 12 million. Four centuries later, it had been reduced by 95% (237 thousand). How? When Columbus returned in 1493 he brought a force of 17 ships. He began to implement slavery and mass-extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years five million were dead. Fifty years later the Spanish census recorded only 200 living! Las Casas, the primary historian of the Columbian era, writes of numerous accounts of the horrendous acts that the Spanish colonists inflicted upon the indigenous people, which included hanging them en masse, roasting them on spits, hacking their children into pieces to be used as dog food, and the list continues”
Other than an unfounded claim by a high school teacher, do you have any OTHER hard data?
Two sources were quoted with similar material regarding native american populations…one was a university link. It’s hilarious how hard you are trying to discredit valid information. Keep grasping at straws…boy.
I suppose in your little narrow mind the holocaust never happened either.
The first thing I noticed when I first arrived in Taiwan? I would have to say the traffic. On the highway from Kaohsiung International Airport to Kaohsiung proper I was amazed at how chaotic the traffic was. People weaving in and out, changing lanes constantly. Whoa!
One of the most futile, no-win altercations I’ve seen. Just when we thought we’d seen the silliest nonsense from either of you, you go and outdo yourselves again!
quote:Originally posted by ABCguy24:
"By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand."
Before your panties get TOO twisted, you might want to read this link:
I’d like to leave aside the issue of where we set the mark for “first world.” As has been hinted at, it’s not really that useful of a category. As ABCGuy was getting at in blunderbus fashion, it is often used to exclude some nations from the club, and presumes a certain evolutionary end point while at the same time lumping together nations that took fairly divergent economic paths (Sweden and the US for example).
As racist (probably willfully) as MLD’s examples were, the basic reasoning is sound. MLD may not be pleasant or enlightened, but the guy didn’t get his PhD out of a crackerjack box.
His point was that thesoftware is more important than the hardware in a society. I don’t know that it’s all software, but software is certainly important. Taiwan should perhaps be thought of as a “recently developed nation.” It’s infrastructure is generally good compared to other advanced countries, but this is fairly recent as these things go and as a result the software is playing catch-up.
I think that the environment and education are good examples of this. Environmental consciousness is low here compared to say Northern Europe, but it’s growing now that the development drive has become less all consuming.
The education system lags behind as well. Taiwan’s for the most part are still trying to teach their students facts rather than how to think independantly and critically (not that Western schools always accomplish this, but it is definitely the aim). Almost none of my TOEFL students (generally folks headed for graduate school) know the difference between a reason and evidence and most have a hard time catching on. How did they get through four years of university without learning that? It doesn’t seem to get much better farther up the academic food chain. Even a lot of the academic writing I read is not of very high quality. (By the way, I do not think this is an East/West thing. In my field, Japanese scholarship is generally regarded as essential reading. Taiwan’s just isn’t there yet).
I think that this will change and improve with time, but there are some areas where Taiwan is still playing catch-up.
quote:Originally posted by JeffG:
A few of you, and you know who you are, need to play nice or I'll, I'll, I'll wave my magic wand! Now kiss and make up!
[img]http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/Kiss.gif[/img]
quote:Originally posted by Grizzly:
[QB]
As racist (probably willfully) as MLD's examples were, the basic reasoning is sound. MLD may not be pleasant or enlightened, but the guy didn't get his PhD out of a crackerjack box.
Does anyone have any evidence of MLD’s supposed PhD? Just by reading some of his posts I have a hard time believing he even went to college at all. My guess is all his revisionist ideals come from right wing “literary” sources…the far right if you know what I mean.
quote:
"His point was that thesoftware is more important than the hardware in a society. I don't know that it's all software, but software is certainly important. Taiwan should perhaps be thought of as a "recently developed nation." It's infrastructure is generally good compared to other advanced countries, but this is fairly recent as these things go and as a result the software is playing catch-up."
Playing catch up to who exactly? By what proven methodological or scientific standard are you applying this comparison? It’s really based entirely on wantonly applied prejudice rather than anything rooted in reality.
quote:
"I think that the environment and education are good examples of this. Environmental consciousness is low here compared to say Northern Europe, but it's growing now that the development drive has become less all consuming."
Total nonsense…right wing conservatives Americans have shown themselves to disregard environmental issues completely in support of big corporate projects. Does this make them any less first world in thought? What about the whaling industry that iceland engages in? What about the deforestation and other industries scandanavia is a part of as well? Maybe you should look into this before you proclaim northern europe as more environmentally conscious.
quote:
"The education system lags behind as well. Taiwan's for the most part are still trying to teach their students facts rather than how to think independantly and critically (not that Western schools always accomplish this, but it is definitely the aim)."
About the only thing I agree with you on is that Taiwan’s education isn’t up to par with higher education in the U.S. Then again not all european countries enjoy a good standard of higher education either. Yet you probably wouldn’t call them any less ‘first world’ it’s double standards like this that make me wonder…
I lurked here for quite awhile before actually making my first post. I read a lot of the rhetoric espoused by the forum users here that cleary did come across as pretentious denigrating attitudes against asians…
I agree. There have been a large amount of stereotypes and -over-generalizations, generally against Asians. (and I wouldn’t call MLD a ‘closet’ racist myself…) There have also been a lot of good posts by enlightened, decent people. Just make sure you don’t sound like those posters you dislike for their racist-sounding statements (I mentioned this in my previous post), and I’ll make sure I do the same.
“Also your position is utterly naive if you think western nations haven’t collaborated to screw over developing countries…”
I’ve yet to state any comments about this issue. But the point I was trying to make is that you are talking of -western nations-, not white western people; there is a big difference. I assume you realize this, but from your posts its not always clear that you do.
quote[quote]Playing catch up to who exactly? By what proven methodological or scientific standard are you applying this comparison? It's really based entirely on wantonly applied prejudice rather than anything rooted in reality. [/quote]
Thanks man, I was beginning to feel left out that you hadn't accused me of racism yet. I had actually meant that the software hadn't caught up to the hardware. It's a catch-up process that I would say that all nations go through every once in a while. I would say thatthe US was playing catch-up in the 80's and maybe early nineties.
As for Taiwan’s environmental consciousness, I said that it’s less developed than Northern Eauropes and I’ll stand by that. I don’t think that environmental laws are nearly as strict nor do I think the environmental movement is nearly as strong. One of the tactics you decry but occasionally engage in yourself is defending one place by attacking another. Belive it or not, I’m not a racist. This is my opinion of Taiwan based on what I’ve seen and read. If you think I’m wrong then prove it and present evidence about Taiwan not Europe.
Also, please note that I did not use the term “first world” in my post except to say that I didn’t think that it was good or useful, in fact for reasons similar to the ones you used to disagree with it.
In general I would suggest that you bandy about “racism” far too much. After a while it feels like your just knocking down straw men. All of the posters here seem to be pretty much interchangeable to you. Would it be possible for a white person to have an informed, reasonable opinion that was different from yours without it being due to racism?
Finally, vis-a-vis MLD’s academic credentials, I would generally buy it. When he’s not making reprehensible comments, he does demonstrate a real knowledge of chinese history. I conceed that he’s a devastating counter-example to the liberal idea that education will make us better, more sensitive people, though he did go through the system in a different era.
