For some real torture and abuse, look no farther than Iran

While “human rights” organizations yack on about the supposedly horrible suffering and torture that occurs in Guantanamo. Oh my God, the guard accidentally touched my Koran without wearing gloves again!!! Real torture and abuse on a massive scale is going on in Iran. Naturally, these “concerned” organizations have said and done nothing. My contempt overwhelms me. Read on…

[quote]The cheerless creatures who rule the Islamic republic of Iran have developed a particularly wicked use of torture. Not only do they use the full panoply of physical and psychological horrors on their captives, but they then send the victims back into their homes and neighborhoods for brief periods of

I get it now. What used to be your outrage is now your contempt.

Actually, Richardm:

What do you ever contribute to any of these discussions except some kind of esoteric and failed attempt at cynical sarcastic humor?

Let’s look at the situation.

Thousands of people are in prison in Iran where they are being tortured for real. This is not about taking a few photos or wiping some feces on someone. They are being tortured as in the real sense of the word. People DIE in Iranian prisons like the Canadian journalist who was beaten to death. But do human rights organizations discuss this? No, they are too busy lamenting the “abuses” in Guantanamo. What are those abuses you may well ask that make them so deserving of front-page headlines in the NY Times? Well, someone accidentally touched a Koran and that showed insensitivity to Muslim prisoners. AND why were these Muslim prisoners in Guantanamo? For opening a newspaper to criticize the US occupation of Afghanistan? For meeting illegally? No. For being armed and fighting US forces in combat or for carrying out terrorist acts to maximize civilian deaths. So for these people, who are fed, clothed, have their Korans and living in relative comfort, we have screaming headlines. But for those who are truly fighting to bring democracy and human rights to their nation, we have silence. Not even silence but dismissive disinterest. Now, you explain to me in moral terms how that is acceptable. Try to move past your usual smart-ass cryptic comments and take a stand on this issue. If you have nothing to add except these little comments, why do you bother to post here? Do you care about anything?

Anything I could say about your contempt posts I have already said about you outrage posts. You post things about other countries that are worse than the Bush administration, which doesn’t prove a thing. Oh, look they’re worse than us. Don’t you see how silly that is? Then when you start losing your arguments and credibility you start deriding your opponents. Well Denile is a river in Iraq aint it?

And that is the best example of a post showing absolutely no moral coherence if there ever was one.

Let me explain. There really is no “abuse” or “torture” in Guantanamo. We have seen numerous “allegations” but nothing ever really pans out. There was “abuse” but no real “torture” at Abu Ghraib and the cases in both incidents were isolated and limited. Action was taken. Individuals were prosecuted and punished. These incidents dominate world headlines for over a year.

Now, we have a country where there are no rights, no protection and where torture and abuse on a massive scale is occuring and there are not even 0 headlines, there are no news stories. Human rights organizations ignore it or call for dialogue but no one is doing anything about holding the leadership of Iran accountable.

This is not therefore about pointing out that Iran is worse than the US. This is about pointing out that the US is not a problem and that the attention it is getting is wasted and misdirected. There are REAL problems in Iran and no one is even talking about it? That is the weird kind of skewed moral equivalence that I am decrying here.

So, what is YOUR position? Do you have one? Let me put this in language that liberals can understand. How does this make you “feel?”

Fred, have you read the book: “What’s so Great about America” ?

In it the guy suggests that it is because the US is a megapower that it is held to much higher standards than the rest of the world. The abuse issue is an great example: hurt feelings of incarcerated POWs in the US is somehow a far greater outrage thatn the real torture and murder of Iraian captives (read political prisoners) because Iran is a medieval backwater.

This is first choice grade A crapola.

Think about WHAT IF the US were really and truly to focus all its power on any part of the world, morality and ethics be damned… :smiling_imp:

I think the thing thats gets some people is that the US (or Bush…whomever “they” are hating at the time) is so powerful yet still does NOT turn to the dark side. Absolte power corrupts absolutely…is that an absolute?

[quote]…or if the organizations who pretend to champion

There is no mention of this on the frontpage of Amnesty nor is there any link to any further information about this person.

There is as you pointed out a mention on the front page of the Human Rights Watch site BUT it is one of many. It is not a headline but a link as in recent news. You would have to go to the Middle East section to find more headlines and they are lumped together with Sweden guilty of human-rights violations by cooperating with the US on prisoner exchanges.

You do make a valid point though that this was mentioned on at least the Human Rights Watch site. I take that as a correction to the article I linked BUT

Where is the hew and outcry of any of these organizations? While this may in fact be linked on their site (one of many such links), what is the organization trumpeting. Where is the attention going? Do you think that Iran is in the “hot seat” either by criticism from these organizations or by the media? Do you think that the fact that Human Rights Watch has this as a link on their frontpage is enough? It is not, however, being headlined.

In addition, scrolling through the Middle East section, there are so many stories. Which of them are being targeted for concerted action and criticism? Would you honestly say that this story about Iran is being followed on Human Rights Watch? If so, do you have any statements that have been made to the press recently to highlight this matter? Ditto for Amnesty International.

So a link is not enough in my opinion. There is a lot going on in Iran that deserves more attention. The fact is that Iran and countries like it are not getting put under the spotlight as they deserve. Why not? This is a serious question. Do you BB, personally, think that I and Michael Ledeen our mistaken in our perceptions that Iran and its flagrant and rampant human-rights abuses are not getting sufficient attention. Do you agree that it is right to focus on the US and its “abuses” to such a degree? Is this justified? Do you agree that this is, in fact, happening?

I like both you guys a lot, and enjoy reading both of your posts. In this case, however, I disagree with both of you.


Richardm may have a penchant for sarcastically odd one-liners. However, in my opinion:

(a) They often have a message to them. Yes, sometimes they are just intended to be amusing and nothing else. But very often I find that they are making a point at the same time. If you’re slow, like me, you sometimes have to think about them for a second to get what the point is – but very often you will find one.

(b) Not everyone’s sense of humor is compatible, so there’s nothing shocking about the fact that you don’t happen to find Richardm’s comments funny. That said, I have a feeling that you might be in the minority here. I suspect that many of us find Richard’s posts quite funny, even if we don’t happen to agree with the message behind them.


If you think that it “doesn’t prove a thing” to point out that the actions of the leaders of countries are often worse than the actions of the Bush administration, then I think you are letting your own political viewpoint act as a pair of blinders to many of the comments that are made every day about Bush, and about the US.

It is quite natural that Bush, and the United States receive the bulk of the criticism and attack around here. Their role on the world stage makes this inevitable, and I think much of the criticism is quite warranted.

But have you not seen the comments asking why the US should be allowed to have nuclear weapons and North Korea should not? Have you not read posters who argue (and they are serious) that the US is the most evil nation in the world? In the context of such an extreme lack of perspective, how is it illegitimate to point out that there are other countries that are far worse?

It doesn’t mean that the US shouldn’t be ashamed of some of its actions – as all countries should be ashamed as some of their actions. It does not mean the US shouldn’t try to improve the areas where it falls short. It just means that we should have some perspective on things. That’s really not an extreme position. And I submit that it’s not a “silly” position either.


Fred and Richardm both make me laugh. But, I respect Richardm in the morning. :slight_smile:


Gosh I have not been smacked down like that since our German housekeeper Mrs. Schmidt used to tell us to “play nice” or “share.” I am hoping, however, that you do not have her adjustable cane, yikes! I still recall the terror of that instrument of torture. The worst part was when she deliberately would play with the notches that governed the length thereof. Must have been some sort of psychological torture that she learned from training dogs (and/or children) in the Old Country. haha

All right. I will be nice to Richardm as long as he agrees that I am right and he is wrong. That would be a fair balance right?

That’s all right with me since I usually try to avoid rising until the p.m. or wait, hmmm, what exactly to you mean? This isn’t about nuttendiesel again is it? For the love of God…