Foreign student scandal at Nat'l Chung Cheng University

Discussion Open Forum
1

This was in the China Post on Sept. 1 (p. 20):

chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/int’ … tudent.htm

Briefly, an American doctoral student applied to the political science department of National Chung Cheng University (CCU), writing on his application that he neither spoke nor understood Chinese. They accepted him, and he enrolled. One of his professors refused to switch to English (it was a required class), and according to him, tried to trick him into making a scene that they could expel him for.

By the way, people from the university are trying to keep this from being posted at their English Wikipedia article. If you click here

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_C … University

and it doesn’t have a section called “2008 foreign student scandal” (and Chiang Kai-Shek mentioned in the second line of the intro), then please “revert” back to this page:

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit … =235708229

(Just press “edit this page” at the top, then “enter” at the bottom.)

Let’s give them a wiki war!

P.S. Speaking of edit wars, the official English name of the university is

C H U N G
C H E N G

not that pinyinized crap. If this is the work of a robot, then please turn it off. If it’s a human, then please tell it to go away.

2

Here’s something I’d like to know: Where did Lee and Liao gain their degrees? If in the States, wouldn’t be nice to know how they did in their graduate studies? :smiling_imp:

And is the China Post hiring, because that lead was :doh: :laughing:

3

Is this Terry, formerly owner of the restaurant “American Pie”?

4

The chair of the department, Kun-Jan Liao, got his Ph.D. in 1994 from the U. of Kentucky. Imagine that.

Source: His webpage

The teacher in question, Pei-shan Lee, got her Ph.D. in 1999 from the U. of Pennysylvania.

Source: Faculty webpage (scroll down)

Still looking for their dissertations.

5

What a mangled horrorshow of a story! Jesus Christ, China Post! Hire a goddamn sub. What a joke.

I feel sorry for that bloke, though. “This is nothing personal” makes it sound as if there’s definitely two schools of thought at Cheng Chung as to whether non-Chinese speakers should be admitted to grad programs.
But didn’t we already know that Taiwanese universities are a pathetic joke? This is just further evidence, no?

6

mmm… PhDs from “hillbilly” unis seem to be the favored path to go for the majority of upward moving locals. I’ve seen some of the course material and boy! how I wished I was Taiwanese. To me these PhDs are worth less than chewed binlang.
Doesn’t seem to matter to them whether the uni is considered top notch or not, it’s the string of Roman letters behind their Chinese names that matter.

7

[quote=“sandman”]What a mangled horrorshow of a story! Jesus Christ, China Post! Hire a goddamn sub. What a joke.
[/quote]

My thought also :laughing: I say let’s send them a mass email of complaints about their actions. :beatnik:

8

[quote=“daihatsu”]mmm… PhDs from “hillbilly” unis seem to be the favored path to go for the majority of upward moving locals. I’ve seen some of the course material and boy! how I wished I was Taiwanese. To me these PhDs are worth less than chewed binlang.
Doesn’t seem to matter to them whether the uni is considered top notch or not, it’s the string of Roman letters behind their Chinese names that matter.[/quote]

UKY and UPenn are hardly “hillbilly” universities, although I must admit I’m not quite sure what you mean to express by that statement.

However, you are correct: I’ve known Taiwanese students in America to do anything - anything - to get those 3 letters behind their name. This is not all of them - my girlfriend has a doctoral degree and worked damn hard for it. For many Taiwanese, however, there are no morals and no boundaries in order to get Ph.D.

edit: Perhaps. Dr. Liao Kun-Jung doesn’t have much English ability. He needed a translator to translate his Taipei Times article for him:
taipeitimes.com/News/editori … 2003406083

9

Yeah, Taiwan international? Last year I asked for information on the Hotel management at a Xinzhu University it was I believe … I asked if it was an international course? … Yes it is … is it in English? … No it’s not … Are some courses given in English? No … So how the hell can it be first of all a Hotel management course and secondly be international?

10

I can see why they’re so mightily pissed off, though. Imagine being told that you have to conduct classes in a foreign language because your boss wants the nice fat tuition fees from overseas. Just imagine if, say, Edinburgh University issued a directive that lecturers were to start providing lectures in Chinese for the benefit of high-paying Chinese grad students? :roflmao:

11

That was one of the main problems we had at our college. They explained to us that between the regulations and the pressure to publish X number of papers per year, it was very difficult to attract the best professors to teach in English, no matter how fluent they were. 50/50 truthfully is better than a fake 100%. That is the core of the problem.

Without real incentives, the instructors teaching the “international” courses are not motivated. Without clear regulations -I am definetively for the language test currently applied for scholarship students- clashes ensue, and both the image of Taiwan and its opportunity for growth and educational exchange are ruined.

I also could not believe that someone who got a PhD in the US or UK would be so constrained to communicate in English. Granted, some of these guys graduated in the 1950’s or 60’s… But the truth, guys, is we are in Taiwan, some Mandarin can be handy, but the level of language proficiency to study at university level with the rest of the locals takes time -and not all international students have this luxury. For instance, the ones on the Taiwan scholarship get one year only before going to college. Most go unprepared because, first of all, a year is not enough to achieve proficiency, and second, they are told “most courses and textbooks are in English, and the professors will help you” . Certainly, most universities bend the rules and give lots of leeway to the students, practically carrying them through. This kind of pampering is also not healthy.

Many years ago, a friend tried to get accepted into a northern college especialized in certain sciences. They were shocked and truthfully did not know what to do: never before had a foreigner attempted such a thing. At the end, after evaluations by several committees, the director said no, based on my friend’s lack of proficiency. My friend was devastated with dissapointment but he accepted it since it was based on a fact: his Chinese was not good enough. Eventually, he applied for another college. Compare this with the situation described by the OP: my friend was given a fair hearing and in all fairness, they would not get a tutor just for him. Now, there are several foreign students at that same college, because the university prepared itself and made changes to accomodate those students. Things change if there is flexibility. (When my friend applied, I think they didn’t even had regulations for foreign students set yet).

By the way, we also suffered from a racist $%^#@ -who, by the way, is currently serving in Europe as, get this, a diplomat. He was so well connected he was untouchable, in spite of all the student complaints, both local and international. I use his book as a doorstop, just to show my high regard for the fellow.

12

There’s something I don’t understand. How many other people were in this class? 2? 27? I’d certainly be pissed if I were a Taiwanese student in that class and because one foreigner added in, suddenly everyone has to speak in English.

Dude, if you specialize in Taiwan/China studies and you can’t speak enough Chinese to keep up with a poli sci class, it’s going to be difficult for you to find a teaching job. If you don’t specialize in Taiwan/China studies, people are going to wonder why the hell you got a Ph.D in Taiwan, and it’s going to be difficult for you to find a teaching job.

13

Back in the day when I was a student, there were very limited courses you could take in the university. And, they were all in Mandarin.

I got stuck taking a class on the “3 principles”. I think I was the only one to ever show up at the class. I remember being shocked at how at the final there were so many people.

14

Ali, the problem is when the university markest itself as “international”, with “courses taught in English”. Several universities are teaching Taiwan and China studies in English. We do not know if the university in question assured the student this was the case in their classes. That is the core of the question.

You are right when you say that no special arrangements should be made for only one single student. However, the university assured this guy there was no problem -well, they get extra points and $$ for having furriners- and as we know, most programs that market themselves as “international” have lessons taught in English -yes, in Taiwan. Most universities set aside courses for foreigners, and/or make them take tests before allowing them to enter maintream courses with the locals, as Elegua points out.

The attractiveness of these courses -and the reason they charge up to 10 time smore than the normal university lessons- for the locals is to practice their language skills, when they cannot leave a year or two or more to study abroad. It is bringing the world to them. This system is supposed to be for mutual benefit.

15

Oh, I agree that if the university is being deceptive if it’s billing itself as “international” and it isn’t able to handle international students.

On the other hand, this guy should have engaged in some caveat emptor. If you’re going to pursue a Ph.D (which requires a sacrifice of at least 5 years of your life, assuming it’s not some sort of degree mill) in a foreign country, I would damn well make sure that I can handle the whole process in English. That would mean talking with the different members of faculty/potential thesis advisors and previous international students, visiting classes before enrolling, etc. From what it sounds like (and I could be wrong), the guy only talked with the admissions office.

16

[quote=“MPenguin”][quote=“daihatsu”]mmm… PhDs from “hillbilly” unis seem to be the favored path to go for the majority of upward moving locals. I’ve seen some of the course material and boy! how I wished I was Taiwanese. To me these PhDs are worth less than chewed binlang.

Doesn’t seem to matter to them whether the uni is considered top notch or not, it’s the string of Roman letters behind their Chinese names that matter.[/quote]

UKY and UPenn are hardly “hillbilly” universities . . . [/quote]

U Penn especially.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pennsylvania

17

Still doesn’t preclude them from admitting hilbillies on occasion. Admission does make mistakes.

18

True. After all, the U of Virginia almost admitted the Chen kid.

19

I get the impression that it was a university politics thing and that the lecturer was making it a political point not to conduct the lecture in English.

20

I was thinking maybe it is a conspiracy to expose how “deceptive” furriners take advantage of Taiwanese universities and expect to be given their degrees on a silver plate… :raspberry: :loco:

Now, seriously, Ali’s point is vital: I also visited the universities I was interested in -except the one in Tainan, which I should have, it would have been a great choice- but I was here in Taiwan. The universities here are not that well organized in terms of alumni associations and stuff. It is difficult enough to get through to a college official that will give you a straight answer.

Furthermore, many of these universities are just opening up programs for foreigners and hence since nobody has taken it before, no one can tell if it’s good or not -yes, it is a risk to become the guinea pig, but sometimes it is worth it.

Nevertheless, I cannot believe this guy could not find a fellow countryman/woman to tell him about his/her experiences. However, even this mn must be taken with a grain of salt. In my case, we had an aspiring %&$#@ clown who told us to bring deodorant, soap, and tons of medications, even feminine napkins, “since they do not have them there”. I confronted him upon our return and he found it pretty funny that we had to pay 100 USD in overweight luggage charges. Hence, fellow students may or may not be of assistance.

I just hope that this incident makes people 1. as Ali says, interested students do your homework and 2. Universities realize that while having furriners means more $$, they must clean up their act and set the rules straight or else no more $$

As to the lecturer, if he was getting paid to give class A in a certain way, he should have done it. Problem, as you say, is adding other issues to the mix.