Foreign teachers well-paid?

[quote=“yaoshema”]foreign teachers are well-paid regardless of their qualifications.[/quote]An average of $500~$700 NTD per hour is well paid?! I disagree!

I dunno about that, Mr Surfer. Assuming one earns 600NT per hour @ five hours per day, one would be taking home 45000 per month for a mere amount of work. Considering that the average salary in Taiwan is well below that and that the average Taiwanese person has a science/commerce/computer degree, and works on average 9-12 hours per day, doesn’t make it a bad gig at all. :sunglasses:

Jimi, check your math: at 600 for 5 hours you would be making 60k + depending how many working days in a given month. :wink:

True dat. My math is crap. Thas wy I es inglish teecha. :slight_smile: Hey, you made my point more succiedlytly than I could, Mr Citizen. :slight_smile:

[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]An average of $500~$700 NTD per hour is well paid?! I disagree![/quote]I dunno about that, Mr Surfer. Assuming one earns 600NT per hour @ five hours per day, one would be taking home 45000 per month for a mere amount of work. Considering that the average salary in Taiwan is well below that and that the average Taiwanese person has a science/commerce/computer degree, and works on average 9-12 hours per day, doesn’t make it a bad gig at all. :sunglasses:[/quote]You’re right of course, if one actually desires to live and work in Taiwan. However, a certified licensed English teacher at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD), or a highschool, or a middle school, or even an elementary school in the US is paid much more than the $500~700 NTD per hour in Taiwan. If you add in the cost of living and taxes, etc, then you are even more correct. However, the cost of living in the US versus in Taiwan is irrelevant and not even a consideration for me.

jimipresley: I think it’s a good enough amount for anyone who wants to party or travel through his 20s, or even beyond. However, the problems come when you want to get serious about things. What do you do about having kids? That would be fine if the education system, especially at tertiary level, weren’t so crap. You can go down one route and have kids who are like little robots competing to go to universities in this country that are still crap and not recognised internationally, or you need money to send them to real universities overseas. You’re not going to be able to afford that on 600NT/hour. You’re not going to be able to afford that on double that even, I suspect, once you throw in the living costs of being overseas to study.

Also, there’s the problem that for 99% of jobs in this country, there’s absolutely no relevance to anything back home (unless you can get into one of a handful of ESL jobs), so in terms of career, this place is like a black hole. That’s even the case for certified teachers here. Most (including me) don’t work for international schools (the only schools that would be regarded favourably by education systems abroad). If you’re anything but an ESL, or perhaps English, specialist, then it’s a step in the wrong direction. In a sense, that’s okay with me because I didn’t have much desire to go back to teach in Australia, and I ultimately want to work for myself. However, it is a large part of why they can’t get qualified teachers (especially anyone who isn’t retired, close to retirement, divorced, on the run, alcoholic, etc.) to work in Taiwanese schools.

So, I posit that for either reducing your kids’ future prospects or putting your own career prospects on suicide watch, the pay here isn’t great. Also, all of this assumes a status quo, which probably isn’t the likelihood given market saturation (and increasing numbers of non-native speakers of reasonable competency – Taiwanese, Afrikaaners, and Russians on student visas – eating away at hourly rates) and falling numbers of children.

Mr Guy: So how do people who are earning less than half of what the ESL teachers are earning manage to sent their kids to university, have comprehensive health insurance, eat reasonably well and live in relative comfort? Not being facetious, just asking.
Of course, one’s career options are limited, and Taiwan ESL on a resume means nothing, but is the prospect of social security/unemployment in one’s “home” country more enticing?
Sorry. I still think it’s a good gig.

[quote=“jimipresley”]Mr Guy: So how do people who are earning less than half of what the ESL teachers are earning manage to sent their kids to university, have comprehensive health insurance, eat reasonably well and live in relative comfort? Not being facetious, just asking.
Of course, one’s career options are limited, and Taiwan ESL on a resume means nothing, but is the prospect of social security/unemployment in one’s “home” country more enticing?
Sorry. I still think it’s a good gig.[/quote]

They send their kids to Taiwanese universities, which limits them to this neck of the woods or mediocre careers here. The last study I looked at (sorry, don’t have a link) put Tai Da at something like 168th in the world. Who knows where the average Taiwanese university ranks (it probably doesn’t). That’s simply not competitive in a world market. It’s not even really that competitive here in many ways, which is why so many people pursue further education (or even just their first degree) overseas. That’s what I’m talking about. Tai Da is the best ranked in Taiwan, and takes but a fraction of the kids in this country (who work insanely hard to get in). So your kid can be some superhuman freak who doesn’t sleep and can out compete a dizzying number of other kids of similar calibre, and his best option here is 168th in the world. That really seems like it sucks to me. Kids of similar abilities (one presumes) in other countries get into Oxford or Harvard, places virtually everyone in the world has heard of and that guarantee them a lot more.

It’s probably different for you, being from South Africa. My impression of South Africans, both here and abroad (there are plenty in Australia, and I also met a ton in England) is that they’re long termers. Going back to South Africa is not much of an option for them. However, once we look at people like me, then I’m definitely the exception. Probably 99% of other English speakers go back, and their careers are hampered by too long overseas doing something unrelated to their eventual careers. I personally didn’t enjoy teaching in Australia (or England) and I certainly couldn’t live (or save) nearly as well as I can here. I agree with you about the economic benefits of living in Taiwan (at least for me, though maybe not for people with other majors or careers), especially since I think the West is going to be increasingly weighed down by its fiscal irresponsibility and expectations. Obviously, I like it enough here to be here rather than somewhere else (or maybe I don’t know about the benefits of other places), but I can see how others might not think it’s such a great deal.

Very good points, Mr Guy.

Thanks. I think we’re fairly well in agreement based upon what we want (though the education thing worries me a bit), which is why we’re both here for the long haul (as far as I can tell).

I went back to the UK for the money, partly, jp. In Taiwan, I had lots of disposable cash but no long term security. My family are getting older too, and it wasn’t feasible for me to get sick or old, in Taiwan.

It also cost me two-three months’ Taiwan salary to visit my sister, something that Taiwanese people generally don’t need to budget for. It’s not easy for one person to get on in Taiwan; the whole society is set up for extended families.

Not stating that I deserve ten times what locals earn, just that if I ever want to buy a house to retire in, near my family, I need to work for it in a country where I earn more than in Taiwan. Cost of living blahblah, but I still save more in the UK.

Still not ‘rich’, but working on heading off the ‘die alone in a hovel in Bangkok’ scenario.

Yes, Ms BC, you are quite correct. And Mr Guy hit the nail on the head when he remarked upon my nationality. I’m sure that if I were British or Australian I’d think differently.

Family money, accumulated and passed down over generations. Living with mommy and daddy into one’s 30’s and beyond, until marriage, while working full time and socking it away. The health insurance is subsidized by the government. Food is cheap, at least the oily, starchy kind. And see points 1 and 2 about the living comfortably part. I can’t think of any of my local friends who are “supporting themselves” in the way I had to since college graduation.

Further, it’s not realistic to compare pay per class-hour a foreign teacher makes to a local full-time office worker. At least in my situation, for those 5 class hours per day, I spend at least 2 - 3 more hours traveling to 2 - 3 different locations around Taipei. I also spend at least 2 - 3 hours preparing material for those courses and taking care of the necessary review and follow-up. Just because I’m not trapped in an office 8 - 10 hours per day doesn’t mean I’m not working that many hours.

The pay is not poverty level, but not all that great, either. There was another thread started by someone who wants to support themselves, their spouse and a child on a teacher’s pay here. I just can’t imagine…

I think it’s OK work and pay if you are in your early to mid 20’s looking to travel, meet people, and have adventures. It is even good for the middle aged men and women who come over for awhile because they are burned out with life and work in their own countries.

However, IN MY OPINION if you come in your 20s and stay into your 30’s or later you better plan on marrying local and staying here for the long haul. Mainly because you aren’t going to be qualified to do anything back home but teach, and not many people are gonna want to hire a middle age person for an entry level job when they can hire the young university grads who are still young and actually want to learn the stuff.

Then there is the thing about saving for retirement and benefits. I don’t know how it works here, but if I stayed here the rest of my life I’d retire and have nothing to rely on but my own savings, or am I misinformed? Maybe you long term boys who married local can enlighten me. Will the government or whatever send you a retirement check every month when you retire? They should in my opinion because you pay taxes just like everyone else. Anyways just my 2 cents.

I think that the pay is fine! I am changing schools (long story), but the pay seems about the same all over, and its fine for me. There is, of course, a catch to my opinion on the pay. I do not have nor do I want any kids. Also, I am content with living in a cheap rent situation and driving a death-trap scooter instead of a car. As a nooby here making enough money to eat, drink, and be merry, it sure beats anything I would be doing back in my poor redneck hometown. Next year, possibly the year after, I will return to my country to pursue a masters degree, and I am really here now just for the adventure and some international experience. I am using my spare time to build on my portfolio for my master’s program anyway, as it’s in Media Arts, so I do have a feeling of accomplishment from being here as well. For me, buxiban pay allows me some good free time to get some web design and video projects done.

I have no clue why anyone who wanted to live in an expensive condo, drive a nice car, and have 3 kids would ever consider this place anything but hell on earth and a plan for financial ruin if all they had was a TESL and a BA in anything. I mean, seriously, get the fuck out of Taiwan if you want more than hot pot and Taiwan Beer while sweating with cockroaches. Me? I love it.

That’s the thing, lui. It’s fun when you are at your stage in life, but imagine ten years down the road, which was where I was. All I was thinking was ‘What if you get sick? What if you get sick?’ Also, as you get older, all your female friends tend to drift away. Even my female Taiwanese friends were starting to leave Taiwan. Everyone knows one or two of those single freaky old female EFL-ers in Asia (OK, not so much in Taipei, but def in Bangkok). I was well on my way to becoming one of those ‘cautionary tale’ women who ends up completely nocturnal, gets all her clothes made at the fabric market and all her drinking buddies are married men. Hell, EFL women are scary enough in the Yook, but in Asia, they are terrifying. I had a deal with myself about not turning 35 and still being an EFL whacko. :laughing:

First, everyone has their dreams and ideas on how one should life life.

Despite Buttercup’s fear of becoming a EFL whacko, I would have to say that being a 35 EFL whacko sures beats sitting in an office or doing another kind a job that you really don’t enjoy but you don’t want to be seen as a freak.

With that in mind, I also plan to leave Taiwan in two years. I will be 31. I will either get certified to teach elementary school in the United States or get a second B.A. in Accounting. Either path is focused at getting a more professional job abroad at an international school or as an accountant.

I am ONLY speaking for myself, sleepyhead. If you enjoy teaching, that’s brilliant and the best of luck to you. Passion is what turns a hideous life-sentence into a fulfilling career.

I love working in an office and using 5% of my brain rather 1% while teaching (Is it actually true that humans use only 10% of their brain capacity? Sounds like nonsense to me, I wonder where this nugget came from?). Teaching was ace for a few weeks, then I got bored. When I was teaching, I enjoyed the prep, and the materials development aspect of it and hated the ‘talking to people’ aspect. I’ve always believe that education, in terms of the teaching-learning model is deeply flawed and a giant waste of time, so there’s something fulfilling (for me) in bypassing that and making stuff for learners to use themselves.

And I’m the freak; all my close friends live abroad and are academics or business people or EFL teachers. I lived in Asia all my adult life; for me, that’s the lazy boring drifter, easy option life. Coming back here was hard! I was almost 34 when I got my first full time job, in the country I grew up in. I had never paid tax, bought a TV license (er, still haven’t…), got a haircut at a salon, been to the dentist by myself, registered with a doctor, paid a utility bill, operated a lawnmower, called a plumber, stayed in a hotel, etc, etc. People don’t smile and help you because you are the funny foreigner like some people do when you arrive in Taiwan; they just look at you like you’re an escaped mental patient if you are white and have a Brit accent. Drifting along, teaching in Asia is by far the easiest, cop-outiest option I could have taken, which is why I did it so long; no chance of failure and no-one (other than my mother) wondering why I never tried to do anything with myself.

Knowing myself, I have absolutely no doubt that within the next coule of years I will start to feel increasingly bored and hemmed in and I’ll need to get outta Dodge (is that how you use that idiom? I heard it the other day) so I’m just working hard and trying to keep learning new stuff so I won’t get ‘stuck’ like I did with teaching. Flexibility is the key. For a while there, I lost that flexibility and didn’t think I was smart or skilled enough to operate anywhere else.

Anyway, sorry to go off topic.

Anyway, this is probably one for the ‘Greater forumosa’ forum…

[quote]
I am ONLY speaking for myself, sleepyhead. If you enjoy teaching, that’s brilliant and the best of luck to you. Passion is what turns a hideous life-sentence into a fulfilling career.[/quote]

Sleephead, I am quite aware of that you are only speaking for yourself. The point behind my post is that there are people on there sitting in offices doing a job they don’t like because that is what they believe to be socially acceptable. My point was that in my opinion it is better to be seen as a loser EFL teacher than sit in an office doing something you don’t enjoy everyday.

Without trying to complicate matter, the salarys for ESL teachers here are very good, on a per hour basis. Especially if you are one earning 800 and not 600 an hour.

However, the salaries in Taiwan, even after considering lower percentage taxes, subsidized healthcare… are generally not good. I still have no idea how anyone could budget for a 30k monthly expenditure (and I mean comfortable, not western, but comfortable: house, car (you try having kids with a scooter), savings, retirement, health incurance, life insurance, renovations HOLIDAYS!). Then 60k dual income plus 2 kids, that makes comfortable living impossible

Then again, as raised before, the “family” wealth is VERY important. Very few of the young people have ANY of their own money, they may work, but that 30k is all theirs and daddy will top it up. This is one of the many things keeping wages down, young people are still available for such shit wages because mommy and poppy are subsidizing them.

Also, there are some VERY well paid jobs, ones I know about
air traffic control - 70k - plus civil servant bonuses (low tax, gov. pension…)
manufacturing managers (2-3million a year)
construction managers (the guys who organise the order and materials and timings/time lines) 3 million
pilot 200k/month
Politician 200K + Special allowance fund + Gov pension + Kickbacks

im gonna pursuade my wife to get into politics!

PS TaiDa may be No. 2 in Taiwan at 168, but NTU is top 20 in world and that’s why, in my company and many others, an NTU undergrad is gold-dust, and if a US postgrad is added, thats time for big money.