[quote="[url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/is-the-blacklist-real/1236/88 in another thread,[/url]"]Once again, the need for a international resident’s group that would deal with issues such as :
Access to credit and bank accounts (see discussions over in money and banking)
Arbitrary interpretations of period of residence needed for permanent residence.
Blacklisting practices
The Buxiban owners have obviously succesfully lobbied the CLA to set up this black list. Are otherwhire collar foreign empoyees blacklisted? What law gives the CLA the power to create such a list.
If we had such a group representing the interests of international communty members, the first step would be to visit the CLA and find out why they have set up the list and express our concerns. Later steps might include contacting the media, human rights, and labor groups. And if necessary, it might also be possible to file an administrative appeal.[/quote]
I’ve been thinking about this idea for a long time. I think an International Residents Association is an idea whose time is long overdue. I think it could be supported by Forumosa, but ultimately I’d like it to be fairly independent. Right now I see the various chambers having to take very cautious steps, because they always have their own countries’ agendas to think of. A Forumosan International Residents’ Association need be beholden to no one. I’d also like it to be taken seriously. We’d need a charter, and a fairly clear mandate. I don’t think we need to tilt at every windmill on the landscape - let’s tackle some simple issues first, and see if we can win some small victories. If we meet with any success, we can become more ambitious. Comments?
Agreed, it is high time that we did something to better our own lot here. If it to be done, then it must be formal setup properly under Taiwan law, otherwise it will carry no weight.
One word of caution though, anyone who is going to be involved publicly must have the correct residential status, otherwise we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot.
I for one would be happy to get involved in an idea such as this.
It is a good idea in theory, but would it be listened to by the Taiwanese government? Would this idea, being set up under Taiwanese law, even get off the ground as Taiwanese law is not representative of foreigners by default.
In the West it is relatively easy to start an association eg: The Muslim Association of East Crawley or something. In Taiwan, I think the all - encompassing/fairness to all mentality is somewhat missing and this could make things very difficult.
Worth a try, though.
[quote=“Dangermouse”]It is a good idea in theory, but would it be listened to by the Taiwanese government? Would this idea, being set up under Taiwanese law, even get off the ground as Taiwanese law is not representative of foreigners by default.
In the West it is relatively easy to start an association eg: The Muslim Association of East Crawley or something. in Taiwan, I think the all - encompassing/fairness to all mentality is somewhat missing and this could make things very difficult.
Worth a try, though.[/quote]
DM, all of the various chamber of commerces here in Taipei are set up under Taiwan Law, some are quite successful at lobbying the government directly to get things changed.
Whilst i appreciate these are lobbying generally on behalf of businesses it can be done.
[quote=“Dangermouse”]
In the West it is relatively easy to start an association eg: The Muslim Association of East Crawley or something.[/quote]Yes, but I think even in a place as utopian as East Crawley at least a majority of the founding members would have to be citizens, not merely legal residents. As I understand it, civic groups in Taiwan must have a minimum number of founding members, and they must have ID cards. Since I can think of only about 3 bignose 'mosans with ID cards, some spouses are going to have to step up.
…its a joke…but seriously I do agree that an organization as this might be a good idea.
And, as I believe was mentioned, I would like to see it apply to a wider group than just english teachers.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I would like to see it apply to a wider group than just English teachers.[/quote]Who said anything about letting English teachers join?
[quote=“hsiadogah”][quote=“Dangermouse”]
In the West it is relatively easy to start an association eg: The Muslim Association of East Crawley or something.[/quote]Yes, but I think even in a place as utopian as East Crawley at least a majority of the founding members would have to be citizens, not merely legal residents. [/quote]
In East Crawley… absoltuely NOT! The founders would not need to be either citizens or legal residents. And I think that is part of the point.
I think this is a great idea. But, I wouldn’t be sidetracked into expending too much energy on deciding the correct legal form for such an association just yet. Better to put something together with its own by-laws and so on even if it would have no legal personality just yet. Then once the members have joined all the legal stuff can come together.
The question of a bank account will inevitably come up but as long as the funds involved are not large, a letter acknowledging that all money in XX account is held in trust for the ‘association’ from the actual holder of the account should be sufficient protection at the beginning.
Later the question of registering a civic group can be decided. This can be done under the auspices of the national or a local government and there are restrictions. I could pick the brains of others at the law firm where I work. But I don’t think this is the first thing to be decided.
[quote=“dreamer”]once the members have joined all the legal stuff can come together.
[/quote]Nice idea, but try getting a meeting with anyone in government without that bit of paper proving you legally exist… let alone actually getting something done.
I think, on a tangent, if this this is set up, there should be no mention of Forumosa in the title, or in any role other than as a sponsor. Doing otherwise makes it sound like a part of Forumosa and thus limited to and biased by Forumosans.
Grand idea and not to throw any cold water on it but I will ask my stock question whenever anyone puts this idea forward (which seems to happen about once every two years). And my stock question is:
How is this association going to be different than all the prior ones? All of which seem to have fallen by the wayside for one reason or another.
Step one would be to see why the previous attempts (e.g. The Foreign Spouses Association, or whatever it was called, or Leir’s group, the American Citizens in Taiwan or whatever it was called, and the ones before that whose names I can not recall) fell by the wayside. Learn from the mistakes/problems of others before attempting to do your own version.
Step two is make sure you really have enough people signed on before you start claiming you “speak for” the foreign residents. I despise “mom and pop” NGOs which go around claiming to speak for group x, y or z. It has been my experience here in Taiwan that people (both locals and foreigners) form these little NGOs simply to have something to put on their namecards and to get a bit of “face”. And then they troop off to press conferences claiming to speak on behalf of…" which they do not.
Other than that I think it is a great idea. Good luck.
take care,
Brian
President of the United San Chung Foreigners Association.
p.s. Tell you what we really need here is a kind of JDL; Jewish Defense League, but not just for Jewish people, for everyone. A FDL, foreigner defense league which will go out and kick the living shit out of every stinking local cab driver who takes a foreigner the “long way” to where they are going and then insists on the full fare. Oddly enough I almost had to kick the shit out of a cabbie just this afternoon for that, although fortunate for him, he realized the error in his ways and settled for what Brian thought was a fair fare. We need a FDL! Motto: By Whatever Means Necessary.
[quote=“brianlkennedy”]Grand idea and not to throw any cold water on it but I will ask my stock question whenever anyone puts this idea forward (which seems to happen about once every two years). And my stock question is:
How is this association going to be different than all the prior ones? All of which seem to have fallen by the wayside for one reason or another.
Step one would be to see why the previous attempts (e.g. The Foreign Spouses Association, or whatever it was called, or Leir’s group, the American Citizens in Taiwan or whatever it was called, and the ones before that whose names I can not recall) fell by the wayside. Learn from the mistakes/problems of others before attempting to do your own version.
Step two is make sure you really have enough people signed on before you start claiming you “speak for” the foreign residents. I despise “mom and pop” NGOs which go around claiming to speak for group x, y or z. It has been my experience here in Taiwan that people (both locals and foreigners) form these little NGOs simply to have something to put on their namecards and to get a bit of “face”. And then they troop off to press conferences claiming to speak on behalf of…" which they do not.
Other than that I think it is a great idea. Good luck.[/quote]
All excellent points, and something to consider carefully. I think that the scope of the groups you mention is too limited - either by marital status, or by nationality. In addition to having a limited mandate, the support necessary for a prolonged endeavour might not be sufficient. I see this as being an area where we might have some advantages.
I hear what you’re saying about the self-important attitude of many of these groups, and I also would be wary of representing the entire foreign population of Taiwan.
But inaction never solved anything. I’d like to do more than bitch and complain about things. What would you recommend? Or is this idea too amateurish to ever get off the ground?
I think it’s a good idea and would have a fair chance of being effective over time if it gathered a sufficiently substantial membership to be deemed truly representative of the foreign community (by “substantial” I mean as much the kinds of people involved as the number). It would be important that it was formally acknowledged and supported by the major chambers of commerce, and I don’t see why they wouldn’t be willing to do so if it were properly set up.
The first and trickiest problem would be deciding how to define “foreign residents”. If it were to include ALL foreign residents, you’d be shouldering an awful lot of work in taking up causes for the 300,000-odd much-abused wailao from Southeast Asia and elsewhere. You’d also be blurring your focus and jeopardizing your chances of establishing good relations with the government (which as I see as eminently possible if everything were done as it should be). If not, how on earth could you decently restrict its membership and representation to only the white-collar Forumosan types, who you evidently have in mind?
One thought is that while I was still in Taiwan, I often spoke to random Taiwanese people (taxi drivers, people in tea shops, etc. etc.) and most of them simply had no clue that foreigners weren’t allowed to do certain things. So to some extent, this sort of organization could serve a useful purpose by just trying to get the word out. Quite a few of the people I spoke to one-on-one would have been willing to support changes, or at least were open to hearing about the issues. If the only source of change is going to be support of Taiwanese citizens, then it’s time to try to get the message out to them. I’m not certain that lobbying the government directly would be that effective (look at all the work Hartzell has done over the years – he’s gained a lot but still it’s been extremely hard going). If we could drum up some support on select issues it might help.
Just a thought. I’m not local to go to meetings but I’ll be happy to help with translation issues where possible.
OWP should be sufficient cover for volunteer work, right?
