Huh? What on earth is that about?
I believe that what rian was trying to do was draw a parallel between the fact that western men generally have larger “packages” than Asian men. Therefore, the condoms that are available at various convenient stores and retail outlets are inadequate. The question comes down to whether or not the condoms are really too small, or whether the “packages” are just too big.
Then again, maybe I should just have another drink.
Mo, I have no problem you taking umbrage with the folk who trash Taiwan mindlessly: those who complain about the food, the weather, the lack of respect for privacy, middle class niceties, etc.
However, you seem to have lost the ability to look at your environment critically, by which I mean examine it without an excess of cultural or ideological blinkers. In your case, your habit of open-minded liberal tolerance has become as rigid a thought pattern as any dogma.
The fact, pure and true and simple, is that Taiwan has not been urban, modern, electrified, etc. as long as we have in the west. And experience matters.
A recent study by the health department showed that less than 50% of people has even a basic knowledge of health issues. Yes, there are historical and cultural reasons for this. But so what? To ignore the ignorence around you, to condone it, is to do a dis-service to your Taiwanese friends. Cross-cultural meetings are meant for the sharing of information. Your acceptance of all things Taiwanese is frankly patronizing. I treat my Taiwanese friends as equals, as intelligent people who may not always have the lastest information, but are smart enough to accept it when they hear it. It would seem you treat people here as anthropological specimens to keep pure and simple.
If you’d ever walked into a bathroom and seen your wife/lover/friend standing ankle deep in water with a hair dryer going you would quickly drop the pretense of non-interfence. Some things are just plain wrong. Mo, you will do more good for this country educating the local population about health, democracy, and safety, than lashing out at the foreign community.
No doubt. There are several instances where it took a foreigner to point out the inequalities/injustices etc in the US. For instance, that photographer who wrote American Pictures, depicting poverty from Appalachia to the inner cities to the deep South. The photographs were powerful and alerted many of us to conditions we had never witnessed in our own country! Granted, he treated my college class like a bunch of rich kids from Greenwich, CT and I wish they would deport his Scandanavian a$$, but I learned a lot.
Mo joe (and others?)
In terms you might understand:
If your zizi was 1.602cm in diameter and there was a condom for “up to 1.6cm” and it cost $100,000 and there was a condom available for “up to 2cm” but cost $200,000, which one would you buy? And which one would you insist on if it was probably going to be free.
The guy giving away condoms would probably want to convince you that the 1.6cm model was what you needed and that the extra 0.002 cm (about the thickness of a human hair) was not such a big deal (since he has to pay the $100,000 difference). If you were Western, you would probably accept.
Thank you for offering such an easy way to explain this (I hope).
Mucha Man, are you on an ego trip or something? Certainly, there are obvious given instances where non-interference isn’t the best policy. But, if I remember correctly, we were addressing the issue of pulling the third prong out of the plugs. This is something I feel is not an issue that is demanding of criticism by westerners with superiority complexes. You can only take either side of the argument so far. I agree that their has to be a balance, somewhere. I applaud you for treating your Taiwanese colleagues with equality and humbleness. When these issues can be addressed from such a standpoint, I can respect it. I certainly don’t treat my friends like “specimens”, but they are already more aware of Taiwan’s problems than you might think.
The kind of criticism I DON’T approve of, is that which blindly and mercilessly generalizes the Taiwanese population as being incapable of realizing and addressing Taiwan’s problems on their own. Comments such as “the electrics in Taiwan really scare me” is such a generalization. The wiring in buildings and apartments may not be the “neatest” in the world, but it’s often sound, with the exception of that in some older buildings.
I have no problem saying that there are many areas in which western ways are superior to Chinese ways and vice versa. Many Chinese like to say that waiguoren hen pa si. That evaluation is correct for me which is why I am living in sunny NJ.
Taiwan shows a lack of standards that the Western world has experienced in the past. For example, in the West it used to be okay:
- to ride a motorcycle without a helmet
- to not use seatbelts
- to carry an infant on a motorcycle
- for mothers riding in the front seat of a car to hold their infants in their laps.
Now? The standards have been changed because after decades of dealing with automobile techology and it’s impact, the West learned that not raising the standards was unacceptable.
The same is happening in Taiwan. After enough people experience first-hand the dangers of adapting technology without high standards for safety, things will change (as they already are).
Mo’Joe, I can’t help but comment that you’re showing a condescending sort of reverse-snobbery regarding the people of Taiwan.
When in the West, I complain about bad things. I do the same here. And there are some things I know absolutely.
For example, I know that the parent who’s infant is killed because they were carrying him/her on their scooter to save a few NT dollars will pay ANY PRICE to have their baby back and to be able to do it all over again in a safer way.
There’s no Taiwanese “charm” in that. And there’s no condecension in criticizing a culture that ignores these dangers. I’m old enough to recognize practices that I used to live with in my homeland. Taiwanese aren’t bad or stupid for that, just as my parents weren’t bad or stupid for never using a child-safety seat when I was an infant. It is called ignorance.
And it’s the same thing wherever you go.
Britai, you complain too much. And you’re full of contradictions. You say you “know that the parent who’s infant is killed because they were carrying him/her on their scooter to save a few NT dollars will pay ANY PRICE to have their baby back and to be able to do it all over again in a safer way.”, and yet you, with your western superiority complex, think it’s up to YOU to point this out. Did it ever occur to you that there are already Taiwanese organizations trying to raise public consciousness about Taiwan’s hazardous traffic? Is that ignorance?
Several of the “standards” you previously mentioned have ALREADY been addressed by the Taiwanese government, and steps are being taken to enforce the upgrade of these standards. If you are
*a citizen OR
*have or are pursuing permanent residency OR
*are are a spouse of a national
then I believe you have reason to be critical of Taiwan and her saftey standards, or anything else. Because you are in a position to do something about it, and it directly affects, and will continue to affect, you and your family.
But if you’re an expat here to make an extra couple bucks, then why the hell say anything? If you don’t intend to actually do anything about it, or it doesn’t directly affect you, then keep your f@$%in’ mouth shut! That’s the point I’m making, in case you’ve missed it. Blind criticism, with no intent to take action to improve the phsical and social conditions of the environment in which you reside, is futile, at best.
Ignorance exists in abundance on both sides of the ocean, but two wrongs don’t make a right. You are excercising YOUR ignorance by assuming that the Taiwanese are ignorant and aren’t doing anything to improve their safety conditions. Anyone who’s been here for more than 10 years will tell you that things ARE consistently improving. While there are still problems that the Taiwanese ARE AWARE they must deal with, you cannot make an educated criticism of a country you have not observed for any substantial period of time. Why don’t you try comparing Taiwan’s standards with that of Turkey or India?
Mo’Joe,
Breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out . . .
Nobody here said that things aren’t improving. That’s what I wrote. You might look over my previous posts again before you submit your rebuttals.
I complain about anything stupid wherever I go. Even more so in my home country. Pointing these things out isn’t my “responsibility”. It’s my right. I don’t need your permission to point out something that is obviously dangerous. There’s no sense to your argument that I can’t complain. I CAN complain because I live here. If you don’t like it, then you can leave.
And though I know that many Taiwanese are fighting to establish better standards (Like I wrote–I see signs that Taiwan will eventually make these changes), I have the right to complain according to the standards that I have to live with. It’s apparent that the issues that this forum has brought up haven’t been properly addressed, because they are still rampant throughout this island. I recently gave up driving my motorcycle because of the both the idiotic driving practices that were endangering my life, and because of the impotent police force of Taipei that doesn’t enforce the few good laws enacted.
And yes–there are many individuals and institutions in Taiwan which practice higher standards in regards to traffic and electricity, but it’s apparently more of a self-imposed thing. The government of Taiwan may talk about standards, but they don’t enforce them effectively enough to change the environment as a whole.
You wrote:
quote[quote] "The wiring in buildings and apartments may not be the "neatest" in the world, but it's often sound, with the exception of that in some older buildings. "[/quote]Huh? Can you imagine applying that same condescending, paternalistic tone to another country if you were dealing with another topic? e.g. in any city from your home country, would you imagine a health official saying "The handling of botilism may not be the “neatest” in the world, but it’s often sound, with the exception of that in some older restaurants.” We’re talking about CONSISTENCY here. I don’t want the environment to be safe for me on an “often” basis.
And “neatest” isn’t the point. It never was. This is not about some anal-retentive foreigners complaining that there aren’t color-coded wires arranged alphabetically with labels in the world’s five major languages. It’s about leaving live wiring exposed. It’s about not having open wiring next to a water source. It’s about having an official inspect any major electrical work to make sure that it is safe.
This is a forum for expressing thoughts, ideas, and opinions. You want to institute a law saying only Taiwanese can complain? In your home country do you believe there should be a law that all foreigners be prohibited from complaining about anything? I’ve had many foreigners complain about the laws and habits of my homeland, both when they’re here and when they’re there. Unlike you, I think they have a right to do so. I enjoy hearing them out. I’m intrigued by their point of view. It’s called a “dialogue”, and it’s one of the best ways that I’ve found to battle the ignorance that you accuse others of having.
Oh–and by the way, you can’t shut me up–this is an open forum.
Is that making you more angry?
Britai, you must be one of those English teachers they were describing in that other thread. First of all, it’s just about etiquette. You’re living in a foreign country. It’s out of Taiwan’s graciousness that you can live here. That means keep your mouth shut. You, of course, have the right to choose not to, and appear arrogant and condescending to the locals. But that’s your choice. I sure as hell won’t think much of you, but that doesn’t matter, 'cause people like you don’t give a shit anyway.
You used an interesting example to compare with my opinion about the electrics in Taiwan: botulism in restaraunts. But that’s really like comparing Apples and Oranges. For the record, I’ve seen wiring just as poor in old American buildings, especially in small towns toward the south and the midwest. But even so, if you knew older restaraunts were more prone to botulism than newer ones, you could choose not to eat there. Like minded people could also choose not to eat there, and the restaraunt would eventually go out of business. See what I’m getting at? Awareness is everything.
I never advocated that it was acceptable for older buildings to have dangerous wiring. Only that simply because the wiring in Taiwan isn’t as “neat” as it is in the U.S., doesn’t mean that it’s not effective. In case you haven’t noticed, Taiwan lacks any trace of organization. Where I come from, the streets are all laid out in a geometrical grid, perfectly measured from street to street. Taipei has no hope of ever looking like that. But somehow it all still seems to “work” just as well. You can complain all you want, but maybe YOU’RE the one that should go back to your own country if you can’t live with that. I, however, CAN live here peacefully with my friends and relatives without giving them shit about everything that’s not symmetrical or perfectly safe. It really pisses me off when people who don’t really have a true understanding of this place go shooting their mouths off. The Taiwanese already KNOW what problems there are, here. Maybe they CHOOSE to let some things exist as they are, and they’ll endure the consequences as a result. But what the hell makes YOU think that YOU can say SHIT when you can’t/won’t do anything about it? Freedom of speech is only worth something if you know when NOT to use it.
Dearest Mo’Joe,
You make many assumptions, manuy of which I believe are showing some prejudices on your part.
The first assumption you make is that I make these same complaints to the Taiwanese. I don’t. You’re absolutely right that if I am staying in another country, I should accept what is around me. However, if I’m in a forum for foreigners and I wanted to complain about something, I think it’s a good place to vent.
It’s also a good place to do what you advocate–that is, push for change. You make a good point that too often we complain without taking steps to change things. I believe that there are some things that I should get involved in based on that idea. So thanks for prodding me in that direction. But I want to reiterate that when I’m among other foreigners it’s nice to let off some steam (For instance, my shoulder being broken as a result of a Taiwanese driver who’s skill behind the wheel was on par with the mentally ill).
And I think we could do without the stereotypes surrounding English teachers. True–too many of them have the qualities that have been described in this forum. And though I agree that there are a lot of the whiney type of newbie expats (and let’s not confine them to English teachers) I have met many English teachers who are not. I’m sure that you have, too.
And the parallel I drew between faulty wiring and botulism was accurate. These are two things that can be deadly without any of us knowing. Remember–no matter how clean a restaurant looks in the dining area, it can still be unsafe to eat at. Same with bad electrical standards. Often the problems are not visible.
Finally, I think most people would agree that you might be more effective here if you’d rein in you language. You bring up some very good points at times, but your way of communicating reduces what can be an effective argument to a playground spat.
quote[quote] You're living in a foreign country. It's out of Taiwan's graciousness that you can live here. That means keep your mouth shut. [/quote]That’s a ridiculous attitude. Truly pathetic to think like that. You’d better go and tell Richard Hartzell to stop lobbying for foreigner’s rights in Taiwan then, not to mention those people trying to stop the exploitation of Filipino maids. While you’re at it, why not tell immigrant’s rights groups in the US to shut up.
When something is wrong, it’s our duty to stand up to and try and change it for the better. If something bad happens to me here that doesn’t mean it’s the ‘Taiwanese way’. Could just be some greedy, exploitative employers, some gangsters, some nutters, some really bad laws. I have every right to complain, as does a Taiwanese person.
If we can effect some positive changes while we’re living here, that’s a lot better than just sitting there with your mouth shut accepting any bullshit that comes your way as being ‘Taiwanese culture’.
Bri
Bri, did you bother reading the rest of this thread before you posted? I wouldn’t consider Richard Hartzell a “guest”. He’s a permanent resident, and that means Taiwan is his home. I’m talking about the people that drop by to freeload and take advantage of Taiwan for purely selfish reasons with no intention to stick around and contribute or be productive in any way. I’ve met a lot of that type, and it’s distrubing how many there seem to be. Too many people come around and compare Taiwan to the west, complain to the foreigners, complain to the locals and then go home and sit on their asses. If you’ve observed the westerner presence in Taiwan differently, maybe you don’t get out enough.
quote[quote] I'm talking about the people that drop by to freeload and take advantage of Taiwan for purely selfish reasons with no intention to stick around and contribute or be productive in any way. [/quote]Good Lord, Mo’Joe, I don’t know what kind of foreigners you’re hanging out with, but you might want to upgrade your lifestyle. I and the other foreigners I know work for a living. Some teach English. Some don’t. I and many others put in more than a full-time week, and though some of them don’t have the kind of dedication I’d call admirable, they do earn their pay.
quote[quote] Bri, did you bother reading the rest of this thread before you posted? I wouldn't consider Richard Hartzell a "guest". He's a permanent resident, and that means Taiwan is his home. [/quote]And Bu Lai En DID read your previous posts. But I imagine he, like most others who read this, doesn’t buy your convoluted, multi-tiered system for establishing who can complain while not in their country of origin. You may want to consider a career as a bureaucrat. You have a talent for complicating the exercising of someone’s basic rights.
quote[quote] I'm talking about the people that drop by to freeload and take advantage of Taiwan for purely selfish reasons with no intention to stick around and contribute or be productive in any way. [/quote]Taking advantage of the Taiwanese? Boy, good thing you’re here to protect them–I had no idea they were so innocent and vulnerable. The biggest rip-off I’ve seen in the Taiwanese business world is how the bushibans treat their students and teachers. And how long does somebody have to stick around to qualify for your approval to complain or take action to change things?
I think you ought to try traveling to some other countries. I think you ought to spend more time in your country of origin to get re-acquainted with the practice of participating in healthy dialogues.
Again–you’ve said we have no right to complain, but you haven’t answered any of our questions as to WHY. Use some clearer ideas, and we’ll start a dialogue on this.
quote[quote] Again--you've said we have no right to complain, but you haven't answered any of our questions as to WHY. Use some clearer ideas, and we'll start a dialogue on this. [/quote]I DID answer this question when I said in a previous post:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva">quote[quote] First of all, it's just about etiquette. You're living in a foreign country. It's out of Taiwan's graciousness that you can live here. That means keep your mouth shut. [/quote]That statement, as Bu Lai so quickly refuted, doesn’t apply to those that are permanent residents, or are seeking to become so. THEY are people who are going to make Taiwan their home, and plan on actually getting to thoroughly know and understand the culture and society, here. THAT is the prerequisite. How can you criticise a people you never bothered getting to know?
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva">quote[quote] I think you ought to try traveling to some other countries. I think you ought to spend more time in your country of origin to get re-acquainted with the practice of participating in healthy dialogues. [/quote]First of all, I love my country. But I have a family here, and this is my home. I participate in healthy dialogues every day, but most of the people using these forums are only defensive because they fit the definition of people I’ve been describing. Maybe it’s a subconscious guilt that you aren’t doing your job well enough. But I don’t know you personally, so I won’t suggest that. Just as I hope you won’t suggest that I’d actually be hanging out with people like that.
Second of all, if I were in my native country, it would anger me if people simply there to freeload off of the healthy economy were criticising my country. Oh, what do you know? It just so happens this DOES occur. As a matter of fact, it pisses a lot of people off. Maybe you’re so culturally introverted that you never bothered to put the shoe on the other foot. I HAVE travelled to many other countries. I didn’t find anything to support your argument. But, then, I didn’t walk around criticising everything I didn’t like or agree with.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva">quote[quote] Taking advantage of the Taiwanese? Boy, good thing you're here to protect them--I had no idea they were so innocent and vulnerable. The biggest rip-off I've seen in the Taiwanese business world is how the bushibans treat their students and teachers. [/quote]Well, there you go. You just let us all in on what your opinion of the Taiwanese is, so I guess we aren’t going to be able to turn your head, anyway. If that were so true, then why would busloads of foreigners come to Taiwan every year to teach English? It used to be that all you had to do was walk down the street to get a teaching job. In fact, THEY would come to YOU! But there are a lot more foreigners here to teach, these days. If your argument were substantial, we’d have to assume that two wrongs make a right. You’ll have to do better than THAT, Britai.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva">quote[quote] And Bu Lai En DID read your previous posts. But I imagine he, like most others who read this, doesn't buy your convoluted, multi-tiered system for establishing who can complain while not in their country of origin. You may want to consider a career as a bureaucrat. You have a talent for complicating the exercising of someone's basic rights. [/quote]Let me make it simple for you under-educated tourists. If you don’t plan on spending enough time, in Taiwan, to learn the language and get to know the people (and I don’t mean at merely a surface level), then you ain’t got SHIT to say! Only then are you enabled to actually do something about it. If you can’t or won’t do anything about it, then okay. Bitch and moan all you want to everybody within earshot. That’s your right. But you have no sense of cultural etiquette and I pity you. If that’s okay with you, then fine. Be an f@#%er.
quote[quote] I'm talking about the people that drop by to freeload and take advantage of Taiwan for purely selfish reasons with no intention to stick around and contribute or be productive in any way. [/quote]Well then you should have said so. You shouldn’t go making blanket generalisations and then criticise people for not understanding the exceptions that you haven’t made. Actually these ‘exceptions’ - the people who are here because they like Taiwan and have something to offer the country, quite probably outnumber your ‘freeloader English teacher’ category. I suspect that most of the people on oriented are more long-term, hard-working, non-tourist types.
quote[quote] If you've observed the westerner presence in Taiwan differently, maybe you don't get out enough. [/quote]Yeah, I guess I don’t hang out in 99 and Vibe watching drunk ******s hitting on Taiwanese bar girls often enough.
quote:
[i]quote: (Britai said) Taking advantage of the Taiwanese? Boy, good thing you're here to protect them--I had no idea they were so innocent and vulnerable. The biggest rip-off I've seen in the Taiwanese business world is how the bushibans treat their students and teachers. [/i]Well, there you go. You just let as all in on what your opinion of the Taiwanese is, so I guess we aren’t going to be able to turn your head, anyway.
There you go again. As soon as someone crticises any aspect of Taiwanese culture you accuse them of hating Taiwan and suggest they go home. Britai was complaining about the rip-off buxiban owners in Taiwan (have you never come across any?). Soon people will be afraid to complain about the weather without you coming down on them for hating Taiwan.
quote[quote] Let me make it simple for you under-educated tourists. [/quote]Who are you talking to here? Are you saying I’m under-educated or a tourist? Don’t talk bullsh1t you know nothing about.
Bri
From the Open Forum, “What is an expat?” thread, by Mo’Joe:
quote[quote] I know I'm bordering on "being critical of Taiwan", here, but this is one area I understand and have a lot of experience with. Taiwanese people are some of the most racist on this planet! [/quote]So if I “have a lot of experience”, am I allowed to make outrageous generalisations?
quote[quote] Who are you talking to here? Are you saying I'm under-educated or a tourist? Don't talk bullsh1t you know nothing about. [/quote]Let’s not make this personal, Bu Lai, I was only giving y’all a hard time. I actually agree with a lot of things you post on here. But I generally don’t see you shooting off your mouth without having an understanding of what you’re talking about, and I appreciate that. This debate has gotten far out of hand. I’ve been clear and articulate about what my argument is from the beginning, but too many people are skimming through posts and are stricken with excessive emotional reactions at the first thing they see that they don’t agree with. The result is that they take things out of context, like this post:
quote[quote] So if I "have a lot of experience", am I allowed to make outrageous generalisations? [/quote]If you’ll go back and read the actual post he’s referencing to, you’ll notice I said that I DON’T blame them. The Taiwanese lack the experience of a society in which people of many races mingle together. I took the time to look at their point of view, while at the same time stating a fact: Taiwanese people, in general, are racist. If you dispute that, then try living in MY shoes for a while. At the same time, I’m thankful people here aren’t getting beaten and killed for it, like they do back home.
Thread closed and edited.
This thread was spliced out of the ‘plugs’ discussion to focus on the attitudes of superiority members of one culture may have about another (ok, it didn’t sound as high-falutin’ as this, but I’d wager that’s the gist of it). It is now morphing into a (yet another?) personal attack thread.
I’ve removed v’s and Britai’s last postings in the process (sorry, guys – for real ).
Please take care how you criticize another member’s posting, particularly in this Living in Taiwan forum (other moderators may be more or less tolerant).
If you have a reasonable problem with someone’s tone/attitude/language/netiquette/behaviour/etc. – please e-mail me gus@oriented.org or problems@oriented.org and cite which thread in the Living in Taiwan you have an issue with and why action is warranted.
NB: I have learned to let “objectionable” postings sit online for awhile. Sometimes, another ORIENTED member comes along and posts an effective rebuttal (or, at least, a clever zinger) – which makes a point and steers the discussion back. I’ve seen people change their mind on this forum, and I’ve seen some actually apologize for something they’ve posted. (I’m not saying it happens often – just don’t be surprised if something which will probably be swept away stays up for sometime)
Finally, to quote Britai in an earlier post about Mo’Joe’s style:
quote[quote]I think most people would agree that you might be more effective here if you’d rein in you language. You bring up some very good points at times, but your way of communicating reduces what can be an effective argument to a playground spat. [/quote]'Nuff said. I hope to “reduce” the number of such spats (at least while I’m moderating this forum
)