Same Sex Marriage

Just on a side note for those who are unaware , adultery is illegal in Taiwan and people still go to jail for that now. One mistress went to jail in 2018 and paid a hefty fine. (I saw some of the comments saying married couples can be unfaithful here , no they can’t. So keep it zipped up !)

You know that in mainland China homosexuality is classified as a mental disorder right? Also most countries around here have severe discrimination against lgbt.

What Taiwan does is a step in the right direction.

welcome back, @Taiwan_Luthiers
remember your threads years ago on guitar making, etc.
back home on the rock?

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Yea, I’m back

America isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. High crime (someone shot damn near every day and that’s a “safe” city) shitty roads (I thought Taiwan roads were bad but man in America they are downright dangerous for bikes) extremely high healthcare cost which you don’t notice until you get sick. Furthermore law enforcement in America seems to make it their life goal to see how many people they can jail/ticket/kill every day. And when the cops do murder someone they hand down some lame ass sentence that does not fit the crime.

Americans are also in general freaking paranoid. You have to get a background check for anything; housing, employment, phone plans. Imagine going through the same bs as applying for an ARC/APRC each time you apply for a job. Then you got the whole NSA thing that Americans seem to tolerate…

Finally I found in my case my economic opportunity to be somewhat limited… which is bad because America costs a lot to do anything. I can make it here at 1000 a month even in Taipei but in podunk, nowhere I still need a minimum of 2000 a month because I have to have a car. No MRT or U Bikes.

Typhoon Guitars is back in business by the way

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Evidently, your sample covers only those who are rich and institutionalized.

The general population is neither rich nor institutionalized, so your anecdotal evidence, while worth something in its own way, is not representative of society at large.


Glancing at your article, it appears to be based entirely on US statistics. Icon was talking about a different (western-ish) country, and then about Taiwan and Asia and the world in general.

As the article itself says…

Not Exactly Apples-to-Apples

(The American situation is for another thread.)

As more women break the glass ceiling, the opportunities for men to do exactly that increase. So from a men’s rights perspective, is that a good thing or a bad thing? :thinking:

This is muddled. Even if we accept your Austrian school cherry picker’s article, what are we supposed to think about equal pay laws? That they used to be legitimate but are no longer so? That they were never legitimate? That there are new, stronger laws that go too far? If so, where are these supposed laws?

That some politicians sermonize about an issue because they think it suits them is elementary – that happens with all kinds of issues. It doesn’t mean there’s nothing of substance for them to sermonize about.

  1. Paternity leave is 5 days now.
  2. If you ask the Ministry of Labor why maternity leave is a thing, they will explain to you it’s a health & safety matter, like sick leave. If sick leave is a bad thing, surely we should abolish it, or at least let employers refuse to hire anyone who scores higher than X in a genetic test for predisposition to cancer… Oh darn, there’s that slippery slope again. :mountain: :doh:

First, give us a false dichotomy. Then, strawman any suggestion of a third option and call it pure fantasy. Classic.

State funded parental leave of one sort or another is the emerging trend. No system is going to be perfect, but it already exists in some countries, so your claim that it’s impossible is nonsense.

Quick, where’s the time machine? We can fix this! :grinning:


I said they can be unfaithful with each other’s permission. See Criminal Code Art. 245.

Also, there appears not to be a consensus among Taiwanese judges as to whether certain sexual acts constitute adultery or not (as @tando pointed out in another thread).


It wasn’t taken off the list in 2001?

I guess it is (my knowledge of mainland politic is limited, besides its best not to get into it since mainland isn’t known for its human right) but as far as I know China is still pretty regressive when it comes to gays.

Fwiw:

Didnt the gay marriage thing fail in the referendum?

Didnt nuclear power basically pass?

Im just curious why this article says this unless the above points i got wrong and gay rights won. Im confused…?

“Referring to the successful example of referendums that pushed the Cabinet to draft a same-sex marriage bill, Liao said he believes that his proposal can solve the controversy of Taiwan’s energy policy.”

Source:

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Yep, they circunvented the refrendum without stepping on its tail by drawing a whole new bill. Clever.

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“It doesn’t legalize same sex marriage. It legalizes same sex marriage relationships.”

It is marriage, and it isn’t. It’s Schroedinger’s marriage. :cat2:

Whats the difference between a marriage and a marriage relationship?

A marriage relationship is a relationship that carries the same rights and obligations as marriage per se, but isn’t actually marriage. It’s de jure but not de facto marriage. Which makes no sense, I know.

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Referendums in Taiwan have no force of law. The reason it’s going through is that the supreme court held that denying marriage to same sex couples was unconstitutional. The gave the government a time limit to pass legislation changing the laws. Instead of changing the language current family law to allow same-sex marriage, additional laws or clauses were added to give same-sex couples the rights to marry. Much of the criticism from supporters comes from the fact that it essentially creates a separate category of marriage. One possible reason for this is because of the cultural importance of family. The lawmakers wanted to give same-sex couples the rights of marriage but it limits the creation of a family because adoption is not allowed. Apparently, adoption isn’t considered a right. It’s possible for locals to consider a same-sex couple’s marriage to be a separate thing from their own. I’m not sure if that is the stated purpose, but that is what some are assuming. It is possible for a couple to raise children if a child is the natural child of one partner, but that seems like a rare situation. I’m not sure how that might apply to adoptions that happen overseas.
I’m not sure of the wording of the court ruling, but it will be interesting to see if this law stands. The adoption issue is likely to be the biggest issue going forward.

As for @Explant’s question about nuclear power, I’m not sure what the current issue is, but same situation. A referendum is hardly more than an advisory or a government sponsored poll.

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Thanks for that explanation. I get what you guys are saying. But i still dont understand the logic.

I also understand the adoption thing. In taiwan its actually VERY common for gay couples to have children from previous relationships, especially middle aged couples. Not to over simplifly the matter but there are a LOT of “puo” in taiwan who went into a lesbian relationship after an abusive relationship. Very very common. There are also a lot of gay men, and T, who are closet gays and still have children in a farce of a marriage. When their parrents die, or they develope courage to stand up against their oppressor(s), they may seek actual love and there are often children involved. I think the gov recognised this problem (cause its obvious).

So perhaps they are trying to please the ultra god lovers in saying they cant adopt anyone else?

Ps the nuclear compariaon was in the new thread asking a question about that news article. I have no idea why it was locked and moved here…? But useful info is useful nonetheless.

I think the fundamentalists are a big part of the driving force behind it, but they are a very small percentage of the voting populace in Taiwan. I’m sure they bulked that up with a “get out the vote” type drive, but the referendum showed there is not wide support across the population. I personally think the lack of adoption rights has more to do with traditional culture than organized religion. I doubt it will remain in place for very many years.

Interesting. Can you elaborate on adoption rifhts issue? I agree tradition here isnt so into adopting people. But ive never seen it preventing others from adoption either. From my experience people here dont want to adopt. The dna thing. But they rarely want to stop others frlm adopting. Or am i missing something impoetant? If anyrhing its a face thing but not one people got all worked up about to fo out and stop others from doing it. The anti gay thing seems unique to me. People were seemingly ok with it until a couple year ago. Once the religious propaganda came out, seemingly educated people tended to go full retard. My family included. It was this very point that me and my wifes opinion became very well respected and not questioned anymore amongst the high and mighty old folk in the family haha.

If you’re gay, then same-sex marriage means you’re free to pursue whoever makes you happy (or miserable).

If you’re not gay, and you care whether two gay people you don’t know get married then you honestly have no life. It’s not your business and it doesn’t affect you one iota, so why do you care?

The referendum was bullshit anyway. Civil rights for a minority of the population should never be subject to vote by the majority of the population.

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It’s not about adoption per se. It’s about no possibility for same-sex couples to adopt. If there is a why for that, I’ve not read an explanation from the lawmakers themselves. My guess is that it has to do with the traditional beliefs of what “family” is.
Also, I don’t think the religion factor is a large one. I don’t know if there were any national polls previously, but it doesn’t seem like there was nationwide acceptance. I think that’s always an assumption because religious groups have opposed it in other countries where they have influence (Muslim and Christian), but I think here it’s a false correlation. There are fewer Christians as a percentage in Japan, but gays there have fewer rights.

In hindsight I should have moved it to this thread. Sorry. :oops:


:apple: :tangerine:

Japan doesn’t need religious groups to promote conformism, because it’s one of the most conformist societies in existence. :2cents:

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And that’s why the (male) members of the Elizabeth Society parade through Tokyo in their poofy ballroom dresses.