Gay Marriage in Taiwan?!?!

oooh. exciting. a slappy fest! Finally on forumosa. CAT FIGHT!!!

BTW… anybody think we should get our own forum? The women have one of their own…

When the governement gives me my rights, just watch how quickly I stop making a mockery of everything not-gay.
What happens when a people are deprived of their rights? They resist in obscure ways. The oppression makes them do seemingly insane things. If you read Charlotte Perkins Gilman’s The Yellow Wall-paper, you’ll learn of the psychology of the oppressed. The story is the journal of a woman who likes to write. Her husband hates her writing. As we read the story, we realize that the woman had no other choice but to resist with aborrent behaviour. She becomes distrustful of anything people of authority tell her. The doctor tells her she is flustered and needs to rest. He tell her not to think to much. He feeds her drugs and he and the woman’s husband tell her that writing only exacerbates her condition. Her feelings of inadequacy increase and she is told that she is incompetant as a wife and mother (Where have I heard that i word before, can anybody tell me?). She proceeds to resist the only way she can. She acts quirky. Even the yellow wallpaper seems to mock her in her misery. Even her daughter seems to conspire against her.
When she is called insane by all, she becomes insane. Perception becomes reality.
So, before you judge an oppressed person for their behavior, remove the instruments of oppression and see how they change.

More reading:
“Gilman lived her life, for the most part, on the margins of a society whose economic assumptions about the social definitions of women she vigorously repudiated. Out of this resistance to conventional values and what she later characteriazed as “maculinist” ideals, Gilman produced the large body of polemical writings and self-consciously feminist fiction that made her the leading feminist thoretician, speaker, and writer of her time.”
Norton Anthology of American Literature, Volume 2

[quote=“scooter”]oooh. exciting. a slappy fest! Finally on forumosa. CAT FIGHT!!!

BTW… anybody think we should get our own forum? The women have one of their own…[/quote]
I have been calling for one since The Source tanked its board. It’s time to join the mainstream. I gladly volunteer to moderate.

We were gonna invite you onto the women’s only forum, but it didn’t seem like the thing to do. PM Maoman and beg for your rights, girls.

And, personal remarks aside, are you saying ALL Taiwan gays don’t deserve rights because SOME do this? Isn’t that a bit judgemental for someone so apparently enlightened? :?[/quote]

They have every right to do what they want … but as Flicka, I believe, said earlier, if they want “more rights” perhaps they should direct their energies more in that direction. I don’t see that happening on a very large scale, and certainly not from the younger generation. Getting a bit defensive of your lifestyle? Whatever … everyone has the right to live the way they want as long as it doesn’t hurt others … but then again, doing drugs and having unprotected sex at E parties does hurt others (and I’m not talking about you, here, Magnolia, I have no idea whether you do that kind of thing or not). Eventually, though, I think they will move to the next step … homosexuality hasn’t been an ecceptable topic of discourse here for very long and the society is going through a lot of changes. Finally it’s become an acceptable area of research in universities and graduate schools (otherwise I wouldn’t be here doing the research I’m doing). I just hope the “hedonism” doesn’t end up going too far … but it is getting pretty scary … and FWIW, I have experienced that side, I’m not that naive, and can I certainly can speak from experience. IMHO, I think the young gay community here is very immature and dangerously naive. They don’t have access to information, and don’t have a very long “modern tradition” to draw knowledge from.

Little Buddha,

My post about the Psychology of oppression was about what you are calling naive behavior. You remind me of an English colonist thumbing his nose at the Indian untouchable before India’s nonviolent revolution.
Within an oppressed class, there are very few who are aware enough to overcome the inferiority complex oppression causes and even fewer who have the luxury to act as activists. And among those activists there must be one intelligent enough AND powerful enough to lead the revolution.
For hundreds of millions of Indians, there was only the Mahatma. For the tens of millions of US blacks there was M. L. King. There are a lot of young gays who may appear apathetic, but actually they are BUSY making a life for themselves. Until that outstanding individual arises, the burden falls on governments, institutions and families to make the young gay people feel equal, so that they may lead fuller lives. Yes, yes activists are necessary to further a cause, but you are being a little harsh on youngsters who are just looking for a good fuck and a good time.
Point of reference: frat boys and how they behave is comparable to what you are describing, so lay off people’s lifestyle choices and address the issue!
There is one gay activitst, Webster Chen, who ran for legislative office, but his campaign was not broad-reaching enough to catalize power. Personlly, I have been meaning to talk to him about forming a political alliace (ie a core batch of votes or a political action committee) rather than running for office, as that would be a more effective tool for gaining power.
taipeitimes.com/News/local/a … /28/113435

[quote=“Quirky”]Yes, yes activists are necessary to further a cause, but you are being a little harsh on youngsters who are just looking for a good fuck and a good time.
Point of reference: frat boys and how they behave is comparable to what you are describing, so lay off people’s lifestyle choices and address the issue!
[/quote]

I agree … and I think I was pretty clear that people have the right to choose whatever lifestyle they want … having been there myself and having had a few close calls, I think I speak from experience when I say that it’s not a healthy choice. Secondly, I think I also made clear that I think the Taiwanese will eventually take the next step (please read my last post again) … like I said, the issue of homosexuality has only been a subject of public discourse for a very short time. Personally, I just wish it would happen sooner than later because I’d hate to see Taiwan become another Thailand with the HIV/AIDS problem. This is something that the government and schools need to address, and very soon … and they’re failing miserably at it. What are two major causes of the exploding HIV problem here? It’s the newly rampant drug use and popularity of sex parties that I mentioned before. They can learn from the mistakes of others, they don’t have to go through that same nightmare themselves if it’s not necessary. To shrug it off and say that it’s just kids having fun would be irresponsible. There are serious consequences when it comes to these things.

Personally, I think there have been some great strides forward in recent years in terms of acceptance, tolerance, and discussion of gay issues … FAR, FAR, FAR better than what I saw going on in mainland China. I think the Taiwanese are to be commended for that. A lot of credit goes to Bai Xianyong and his novel “Niezi”, which was the first time the issue was really forced out into the open. There is also some very interesting research going on right now … one Taiwanese guy I know is researching “lesbianism in Taiwanese softball leagues” (hehe, I’m really not joking!). The next few years will be very interesting to watch … I just hope the party resulting from the new-found acceptance doesn’t lead to too many problems in the end …

I’m not being prudish, and I think people have every right to have fun … but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to be irresponsible too. I’ve known too many friends contract HIV or overdose on drugs, and have seen far too much risky and irresponsible behavior here. It’s a problem, whether people like to admit it or not.

One more thing … FWIW, I think many of the same problems are occuring (or re-occuring) in the States, and I have the same opinion of the situation there. Too many young homosexual men in the States are ignorant/naive of the severity of things like HIV/AIDS, excessive drug use, etc. Because of the advanced treatments for HIV available now, people are taking too many risks again … so, I don’t think it’s just a Taiwanese problem. I’d be saying the same things back home …

Little Buddha,

This is to address your initial post about adoption. The top headline of the United Daily I read in the cab last night said, “Homosexuals to form families” and the story mentioned adoption by homosexual couples, but I didn’t read the specifics, so I tentatively can say, yes, the bill does address this issue.
I also understand that the opposition is up to its old tricks and is filibustering.

Youngsters looking for a good time? Have you been to one of the 2F gigs? Most of those guys are way into their 30s.

[quote=“Quirky”]
There is one gay activitst, Webster Chen, who ran for legislative office, but his campaign was not broad-reaching enough to catalize power. [/quote]

I’d like to jump and say you are stretching it a little bit. It wasn’t that long ago people complained that he was charging locals a cover at his bar, but letting their foreign dates in for free. Not only was his campaign not broad-reaching (sorry, but giving your foreign boyfriend the right to marry so he doesn’t have to go through hassles to live here isn’t exactly a problem on the front burner in most of Taiwan), a lot of the gays here just thought he was a jerk.

:imp: I thought I buried this. Can we refocus on gay marriage and adoption? You are falling into the trap of addressing sex, buggery, disease etc in relation to gay marriage. The conservatives eat that shit up for breakfast.
By not “broad-reaching,” I think everyone who needs to know, knows what I mean!
Jesus, Flicka, if you want to air dirtly laundry go to gay-tw.com, please. I already said that, he should mak some changes by not pushing himself as a political candidate and form a PAC. This is forumosa.com, not letshaveacatfightandnotbeproductive.com, k?
Or let’s focus on the fact that forumosa is extremely reluctant to open a forum to address gay-specific issues and topics.
For example, the Creative Braintrust is currently fervently debating whether there is a need for a gay-specific forum (and whether it should be private or not). How do you feel about that? :wink:

Seems like there’s no debate Quirky. Maoman put his foot down. I stll think there’s a need for a gay forum however. Perhaps one could be started elsewhere and banner-linked from here?
I mean, look at the banners now! Biking, babies, maoman’s blog?, another discussion board similar to forumosa’s…:unamused:

Maoman put his foot down? Are there reasons? Do we get to hear about this? Why Why Why?

What the heck is this “braintrust” anyway? Can I trust them to be my brain?

Quirky??

As for catfights… Don’t you think that’s the likely result when we HAVE no power? As with most minority groups, the decisions get made by people outside the group (this goes for marriage and adoption rights, it also goes for not getting our own forum, if that’s truly the case). And when the group doesn’t make it’s own decision, it’s particularly easy for discussion to deteriorate into finger-pointing and self-criticism. I’m sure that while many African-American women have an excellent point when they blame absent AA men for ruining families, at some point you have to shelve it. Yes, it’s a concern, and yes, it should be discussed, but aren’t there other, greater problems that should be addressed at the same time?

Let’s start another thread about drug use and another about polygamy… let’s air ALL our dirty laundry for EVERYONE to see until we get our own damn forum. OR. Let’s just take this one over entirely. Let’s do what young black professionals do in many US cities these days–“takeover” a typically white bar. Show up in large numbers, scare the fck out of the clientele just by appearing, and get people thinking about segregation, and race issues. And have a fcking good time doing it.

[quote=“Quirky”]
By not “broad-reaching,” I think everyone who needs to know, knows what I mean![/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean, could you please elaborate? Is that supposed to be broad-reaching, as it didn’t reach women voters? I need to know, and I don’t really know what you mean.

[quote=“Quirky”]
Jesus, Flicka, if you want to air dirtly laundry go to gay-tw.com, please. I already said that, he should mak some changes by not pushing himself as a political candidate and form a PAC. This is forumosa.com, not letshaveacatfightandnotbeproductive.com, k?[/quote]

Dirty laundry? I am merely correcting some factual errors about the person in question. Other people read this stuff. Since when was debate about a politician and correcting factual errors “airing dirty laundry” and a “cat fight”? Do you see people in any of the politics threads accusing eachother of airing dirty laundry and starting cat fights?

[quote=“Quirky”]
Or let’s focus on the fact that forumosa is extremely reluctant to open a forum to address gay-specific issues and topics.
For example, the Creative Braintrust is currently fervently debating whether there is a need for a gay-specific forum (and whether it should be private or not). How do you feel about that? :wink:[/quote]
That would be fabulous.

Just saw this linked on Andrew Sullivan’s blog:

365gay.com/newscontent/10270 … rriage.htm

LittleBuddhaTW:

Oh come ON, LittleBuddha! You backed up a ridiculous leap from a debate about gay marriage to

And PLEASE don’t quote your “AIDS credentials” as if no one here has heard of the disease or that anyone insinuated it wasn’t a problem in Taiwan - my “having any sort of life” remark was in the context of it being irrelevant to gay marriage rights. No one said it was “OK to be irresponsible”, just that gay pool parties weren’t relevent to the original debate. Grr :x

[quote=“tigerman”]Just saw this linked on Andrew Sullivan’s blog:

365gay.com/newscontent/10270 … rriage.htm[/quote]

Wow! By that headline, they seem to think it’s already in the bag! If only… :wink:

[quote=“magnolia”]Oh come ON, LittleBuddha! You backed up a ridiculous leap from a debate about gay marriage to

OK, here we go, the old