Breaking news today: the marriage equality bill passed its first reading (??) today, the law needs 3 passes/approval to become official. Sorry i have no idea how the government works so I don’t know the correct official term.
But reading from the list of lawmakers that is arranged to be in the 2nd stage… I recognize some are against gay marriage 
[quote=“ls918”]Breaking news today: the marriage equality bill passed its first reading (??) today, the law needs 3 passes/approval to become official. Sorry i have no idea how the government works so I don’t know the correct official term.
But reading from the list of lawmakers that is arranged to be in the 2nd stage… I recognize some are against gay marriage [/quote]
Which country is this in?
Taiwan lol
Thanks. It’s important to clarify, since the majority of this thread has been about other countries, and mainly about various states the US.
[quote=“ls918”]Breaking news today: the marriage equality bill passed its first reading (??) today, the law needs 3 passes/approval to become official. Sorry I have no idea how the government works so I don’t know the correct official term.
But reading from the list of lawmakers that is arranged to be in the 2nd stage… I recognize some are against gay marriage [/quote]
Really ???
That is still good news, I thought the bill has been rejected already 
Even if the bill doesn’t pass the second reading, we’ll keep fighting for next year 
The draft to modify Civil Law’s 972nd Amendment is about to go through the legislature. If the it passes into law, it will grant homosexuals the right to marriage in Taiwan. There have been an increase of opposition voices. Non-surprisingly plenty of it came from religious organizations.
However, some of it was almost comical at first. There was a Buddhist monk of fairly high stature spewing anti-gay marriage messages based on traditional Taoist yin-yang ideas. I have nothing against Master Jing-Yao, who devoted himself to anti-drugs causes and preaching to prison inmates. But for any Buddhist monk to say things like “The heaven and earth was created with Ying and Yang, thus a union should be of a man and woman” is just hilarious.
Link to the news: Formation of Religious anti-Diverse Family Union Law Coalition
udn.com/NEWS/BREAKINGNEWS/BREAKI … z2eGP2wAPH
Recently though, more and more celebrities began to speak out against the possible new law. Most of them belong to the Blue-branch of Christian churches (as in christian churches that came to Taiwan with Chiang Kai-baldie, as opposed to to the ones that has been here since the Dutch era,) which is not surprising, as Blustian groups tend to be more conservative in most social issues.
Though when Guo Cai-Jie 郭采潔 (the girl who dreams of Plum Green Tea as her English teacher screams at her in the ads) made an ambiguous facebook post about lobbying for anti-gay marriage law petition, shit hit the fan… It is caused more outrage and drew more attention to the issue than a Buddhist monk explaining Taoist creationism on national TV.
Gou’s facebook post is about as cryptic as one can be
facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … 520&type=1
It has also caused a storm of celebrities expressing their opinion on the issue. Unlike in the US where such topic has been discussed to death for the past decade or so, the public discourse on the matter seems immature in Taiwan. People simply aren’t well informed or seem like they haven’t given this too much thought at all. One famous host 曾國城 Zen Guo-cheng said he worries about the implications for children. That kind of argument against gay marriage is now probably only reserved for cross-dressing teachers even for the Republicans.
In the past, even openly homosexual celebrities such as 蔡康永 Cai Kang-yong stated in public that “marriage is a heterosexual’s game in Taiwan,” but has then given the new draft support. I wonder exactly how would celebrities change the public opinion on the issue. Frankly I always thought there wouldn’t be too much opposition in Taiwan. Guess I’m wrong.
facebook of the group pushing for the new draft to become law
facebook.com/tapcpr
In fact this law draft does not only relate gay marriage, but also relate three other aspects:
Outline:
直系血親外，皆可成為伴侶
不限性別，都能簽訂伴侶契約
沒有性忠貞義務
單方意願可解約
不必有姻親關係
可財產繼承
Outline:
多人成家、共同生活
不以一對一親密關係為基礎
不以親屬關係為必要
自主選擇多人家屬
Outline:
多元性別、單身、同志伴侶、異性伴侶皆可收養孩子
When I have time I’ll join discussion.
[quote=“golf”]In fact this law draft does not only relate gay marriage, but also relate three other aspects:
When I have time I’ll join discussion.[/quote]
Mean while I’ll roughly translate the proposed outline:
[quote]
Outline:
Aside from lineal relatives, all can become partners
Regardless of gender, all can become partners
There is no legally sexual loyalty obligations attached to partnership
The dissolution partnership doesn’t require both side’s agreement
Obligations to relatives through marriage is not required
Inheritance of property
Outline:
Two or more can form a family and live together
The foundation of family is not based on 1 to 1 intimate relationships
Lineage or relatives is not required for the formation of family
Freedom to choose family with multiple members
Outline:
A child can be adopted by eligible person/people regardless of gender/sexuality or being single[/quote]
I actually love this law. It addresses so many issues at once.
A lot of people actually have issues with 2 and 3. But I’ve always been in favor of all 3. But I agree without careful wording 2 and 3 could be taken advantage of by people who don’t actually want to be family and have unwanted impact on the society. But as long as it is carefully thought out, I think it is totally the way to go.
The death of this bill is that it is too radical, it tries to change too many things at once.
Just too many changes that that majority will find unacceptable.
Cousins can get married… AGAIN. Actually it is legal about 30 years ago in Taiwan, my former boss is married to his cousin (a very famous celebrity in Taiwan). I am indifferent to this, to each their own, but people are screaming “legalize incest?!?” on the discussion boards.
Decriminalization of adultery. Taiwanese are very sensitive to this, they hate home wreckers with passion (even though it’s not an one person crime). I just find the law extremely stupid, cheaters will cheat regardless of the law. I find it funny that people can ask the police to intervene if they believe their spouse is in the act of cheating lol.
Family formation of multiple adults, some interpret it as legalizing polygamy sigh. I actually think this law will become helpful 30 years from now because MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT HAVING KIDS. I think this concept is so new that I cannot think of a foreign equivalent to see if other countries have similar law.
By throwing it all together it’s got no chance, I agree. Taiwan is conservative but at least the topics are getting debated now.
great point, if nothing else this will generate open discussion about reevaluating the definition of family and what exactly makes a family.
That’s a good one, so many men have a lover or second wife that It’s almost accepted in this society.
Police intervention was possible in Belgium too, many moons ago.
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As for marrying family … keeps the money together.
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from what I read online, the 3 clauses in the draft will be delivered to the legislature as 3 separate items. Meaning they can’t strike down all 3 clauses because they have an issue with only 1 clause.
Also, the laws are divided into:
Marriage related amendments - This part applies to marriage without discrimination against gender/sexual orientation. For those married, it is still illegal to have an affair, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. And it still requires consensus from both to get a divorce.
Partnership/Companionship - This is the part that allows cousins to form a partnership family unit. This is not the same as marriage. You cannot maintain both marriage and partnership at the same time, one can only choose one. This one is the one that doesn’t require sexual/loyalty obligations. So getting busy with a cousin is still incest and illegal.
Family - This is the one that allows more than 2 people to form a family unit not based on blood-relationships/romance.
So icon’s original post actually only listed the second and third portion of the draft, and listed the change to adoption eligibility which I think applies to all 3 types of family.
ah cool, thanks for the explanation, I tried to read the bill but got lost in translation lol.
I discuss marriage and adultery law quite often with my adult students. This a good article: Taiwan’s Archaic Adultery Law
[quote]Earlier this year, Taiwan’s Minister of Culture Lung Ying-tai reminded the Taiwanese of their archaic adultery law, saying that whenever foreign friends remark on it, she feels utterly embarrassed.
That caused a handful of fellow politicians to suggest a review of Taiwan’s Criminal Code Article 239 which provides that “married spouses who commit adultery be imprisoned for up to one year.” But the drive has led to nowhere. Even worse, decriminalization’s staunchest opponent, the Ministry of Justice, published a survey showing that 82.2 percent of the respondents don’t want the adultery law to be tinkered with.
This leaves ostensibly liberal Taiwan on an inglorious list with conservative South Korea and the Islamic countries.
While the adultery law itself is gender-neutral, the devil is in the details. It is an Antragsdelikt, an archaic oddment left over from the days when the Republic of China was actually in China and adopted the German civil code and criminal code of the 1930s. It is an offense prosecuted on complaint, which means that the case is closed as soon as the plaintiff drops the charge. In practice, that usually means unfaithful women are punished while cheating men walk free.
“If Taiwanese men get caught, they usually apologize, then the wives tend to drop the charge because men are often the economic providers in most families; but if it is the other way around the women are dragged into court,” said Chen Yi-chien, director of Shih Hsin University’s Graduate Institute for Gender Studies and vice president of the Awakening Foundation, a gender-equality NGO.
Child custody also plays a role, with women fearing a lawsuit more than men regardless which side has committed the crime. If the intimacy of a marriage is destroyed in court, it almost always leads to divorce, and the judge will then decide for the best interest of the child.
“So what’s best for the child? People would still look at work, education and property, putting women at a disadvantage because usually they quit their jobs to look after the children,” says Chen. To put the practical gender discrimination into plain statistics, 50 percent of women who sue their husbands for adultery will eventually drop charges, but only 23 percent of men will do so against their wives, resulting in a higher conviction rate among women, according to the Awakening Foundation.
But the adultery law’s nature is not the only legal oddity that effectively discriminates against Taiwan’s women. The zishu system is typically used by wives for revenge against the offending female involved in the affair, again putting women and not men on the receiving end. Under zishu, the would-be plaintiff can hire a lawyer to press a criminal charge directly against the third party without harming the spouse. This can be done if the district attorney rejects the opening of an adultery law suit, e.g., because of a lack of evidence. [/quote]
I actually gave this article to one of my advanced classes to read and discuss, and it caused quite a stir. The level of debate was depressingly primitive, although this may have been because it was dominated by some older (louder :aiyo: ) and less educated students. But many younger Taiwanese are extremely conservative too. A few weeks ago a guy - single. early thirties, I’ll call him John - described to me how his uncle got him in contact with a colleague with a daughter of marriageable age. The colleague phoned John and wanted to know, as a precondition to any ‘date’, if John happens to own his own house, car and does he have $10 million in savings in the bank? He was quite angry at the father’s presumptuousness but only because, in John words, ‘the girl is just a receptionist and is not even that pretty’. He’s was completely cool with the idea of, virtually, an arranged marriage. He had no qualms ‘negotiating’ through the father, it was simply that the price was outlandishly high for the product, even if it was only an opening gambit.
Many of my students giggle when I explain how we in the west use the term ‘partner’ to describe someone in a de facto relationship. I always have my laptop at hand and love to whip out this image and point out the rich countries above 50%, and almighty US at near 40%.
This is often too much for the more conservative students to take in. The more cosmopolitan ones quickly twig that the societies like France and Norway are not, in fact, collapsing due to a breakdown of social morals, but rather that they have a different system of family law which provides different incentives for marriage. Edit: Sometimes I get comments about what is perceived to be American/western cultural imperialism, like on the breakdown of the family unit and and the increase in individualism. Is freedom a construct of the West? 
I don’t think so. Young Taiwanese are simply achieving financial independence within traditional social and legal structures. Personally, if I were given dictatorial powers in Taiwan 
I’d take away all the excessive benefits given to public servants and distribute them to the elderly and the disabled, in a means tested system. But can you see it happening?
Too bad there’s no Taiwan on that chart. Bit I think the actual number should be quiet high for Taiwan, given the low birth rate for married couples, that would likely mean the ratio of children born out of wedlock would increase. Also, if we count all those couples getting married in a hurry because the girl is knocked up, then the number is probably even higher.
When I have the Adultery Law is pointless discussion with my Taiwanese friends, they often get pretty upset that someone would think it is ok to commit adultery. But when asked how is the law going to prevent adultery and does the punishment for adultery actually provide positive effect for family cohesion, they are often at a lost for words.
I think primitive is the right word to describe 95% of public discourse on most social/civil rights issues here in Taiwan…
Yes it is too bad. I would be very interested to see where it places.
According to multiple articles (thanks google,) in 2007, a total of 9000 kids were born out of wedlock. That would be one out of every 22 newborns, making it 4.4%. It is the highest among Asian nations.
libertytimes.com.tw/2008/new … life12.htm
In 2010, it was still holding around 4.4%. The number has trippled compares to 30 years ago. But most government assist grants for new born care comes with a requirement for being married.
news.cts.com.tw/cts/general/2010 … 69820.html
According to an 2003 article, 15% to 17% of Taiwanese under-aged girls had experience of bearing children. It is significantly higher than 0.004 of Japan and 0.011 of Korea. Since of the 320,000 new born each year, 16,000 are given birth by under-aged girls, OBGYN association estimates that including adult woman, the number of abortions in Taiwan is well over 320,000.
163.32.133.6/~a061/share/w4-2.htm
A 2012 article points out, the average age for woman to get married in Taiwan is 29.3, but the average age to give birth is only 29.6. Meaning a great number of children were born out of wedlock.
healthnews.com.tw/readnews.php?id=5854
If abortion is illegal, the birth rate will be higher than worldwide average. I used to know a nurse who works at a OBGYN clinic, her workload was crazy, sadly.