I’ve been watching Bette Midler on Larry King Live … she’s always been an advocate for homosexuals, and was just talking about her views on gay marriage. What I found interesting was how she said that lesbians tend to be very committal, but gay men like to run around … personally, I think she’s mostly right … but why? Does anyone else agree or disagree? I recall in the Pink Martini thread, Closet Queen mentioning something about rules for “playing around” for gay couples … personally, if I felt the need to play around, I wouldn’t be in a relationship in the first place … but I’ve known lots and lots of gay couples who have “open relationships” … I guess I don’t understand, or maybe I’m just a bit conservative … I think for me it boils down to two points … first, the issue of safety, and secondly, I think it would crush my self-esteem if my bf needed to get sex elsewhere, as though I didn’ t satisfy him. Any thoughts?
Most of the lesbians I’ve ever known were relatively commital. Most of the gay men I’ve known have been relatively noncommital. I just see it as men are men and women are women, regardless of whether they are hetero or homosexual. In most straight relationships, women are more commital than men.
People tend to say it is because men can produce more sperm and, therefore, want to impregnate as many women as possible – i.e., spread their sperm around to ensure as many offspring as possible. Whereas, women produce only a limited number of eggs in their life time. Therefore, they prefer to find the best partner with which to use those few eggs and create quality off-spring. Quality vs. Quantity, as it were.
While this sounds like a great theory, I think it is just an excuse held onto by men to avoid commiting to someone. It goes on the assumption that we are absolutely controlled by our biology like animals. As opposed to being the intelligent human beings that we are who can control our biological impulses, even chosing to go against them – as many, so-called, “ex-gays” do in an attempt to prove they have “been made” straight.
Besides, I would have to wonder how this theory applies to homosexuals. Having sex with multiple partners will not help to create multiple children. Nor will being commited to one person ensure a lesbian will have quality children.
Now… I’m not saying that the above theory does not have some validity. It makes some sort of biological sense. And, logically, it could explain why it tends to be harder for men (gay and straight) to commit. Or, why men tend to (on average) have a stronger sexual interest than women (hence the proliferation of male-focused sexual… ah… services).
I know lots of committed (i.e., not in an open relationship) gay couples. And, contrary to popular opinion, they stay together just about as long as the average str8 couple does. Which, granted, isn’t that long these days – even for married couples. 
And, I know many single gay men who, like LB (who is not single, I know) and myself prefer a monogomous relationship with someone.
To finish, my belief is that one of the reasons that gay men tend to be less into committed relationships is that, up until the last decade or so, the idea of having a steady, same-sex partner, was pretty much unheard of. There were very few, if any stable, committed same-sex couples visible enough for men to emulate. Marrying (or otherwise commiting) yourself to another man just wasn’t “done.” Therefore, the only image gay men had of what gay relationships were to consist of was casual sex partners, because that was the only type of “relationship” that was available and/or allowed.
For this reason, gay men didn’t even contemplate having a steady relationship. However, now with more people being open, not only about themselves being gay but their relationship with another man – to the point of registering partnerships, having wedding ceremonies (legal or otherwise), the idea is more conceivable. Therefore, I think you’ll find more gay men striving for it.
Lesbians have had the same lack of role models till the recent past. However, in most western cultures, for a woman to have a close emotional and physical (not sexual) relationship with a female “friend” was/is considered more acceptable. So, even though they may not have been able to have an overt love relationship in the past, I think it was probably easier for lesbians to have same-sex relationships (covertly). On the other hand, if two guys were seen to have a emotionally and/or physically close relationship there was the proverbial hell to pay.
Just my NT$2
It comes down to availability. The man’s sexual role has always been, for the most part, that of the pursuer, the wooer, while women are brought up in traditional society to be the wooed (nice girls don’t call boys up, they must wait for the gentleman callers to proposition them). Let’s be honest here, guys, 90% of the times sex doesn’t occur it’s solely down to her saying, “No.” The female role is to be the brakes in the sexual relationship. Sexual roles between men and women in modern North America have evolved a bit in the past generation, but that’s an exception going up against the rule in thousands of human societies since the dawn of humankind. The fact is, if women said “Yes,” half as much as they say, “No,” to sexual advances, I and you and the rest of mankind would be getting laid just about everyday. Now, imagine that those restrictions on rampant male sexuality are lifted, and you have the sexual culture of gay men - because no one has been trained (the way that women apparently are trained, so as to not look like “sluts”) to say, “No.” The brakes are as necessary as the engine.
Quiet Mountain was on the right track before he decided that the notion of free choice was at stake and backed off.
Men and women have evolved different sexual strategies that shape, but do not limit their sexual choices. Men tend to be more promiscuous than women. Evolutionary biologists who study sex say this is largely due to man’s greater strength, his freedom from the handicap of pregnancy, and his ability to liberally douse numerous sexual partners with his sperm over a short time span.
A woman, on the other hand, tends to be more conservative than a man in her sexual relations. Her relative weakness, the handicap of pregnancy, and the limited production of eggs have all helped shape her sexual instinct. For these reasons, a woman is generally more picky than a man about who she sleeps with and more inclined to establish a lasting relationship with her partner.
Gay men and lesbian women, the argument goes, maintain the sexual strategies of their respective genders even though they have different objects of desire. In this regard, gays, whether they are tops or bottoms, are still men. Lesbians, whether butch or not, are still women.
Heterosexual men would have much more sex if women would let us. But in their own little world of men with similar sexual preferences, gays do have sexual partners with similar strong sexual urges and the willingness to have sex. In such a world, bath houses, pick-up bars and the rapid transmission of venereal diseases abound.
Isn’t this biological determinism? No. In this case, biology is not destiny. We are talking about instincts here, and people can and do rebel against or tame their instincts. They also take into account other information that can shape their behavior. For example, since the 1980s, AIDS has certainly curbed gay men’s sexual promiscuity.
[quote=“Cold Front”]
Heterosexual men would have much more sex if women would let us. But in their own little world of men with similar sexual preferences, gays do have sexual partners with similar strong sexual urges and the willingness to have sex. In such a world, bath houses, pick-up bars and the rapid transmission of venereal diseases abound.
Isn’t this biological determinism? No. In this case, biology is not destiny. We are talking about instincts here, and people can and do rebel against or tame their instincts. They also take into account other information that can shape their behavior. For example, since the 1980s, AIDS has certainly curbed gay men’s sexual promiscuity.[/quote]
Well done. Is this really the same Cold Front I wanted to drown in an outhouse? But let’s not go too far with the stereotyping—not EVERY gay man has strong sexual urges or can’t control their instincts, and we could easily substitute “whorehouses” in your “such a world” sentence.
Aren’t there any gay guys out there who are in open relationships that could share their thoughts on this issue?
A gay friend once explained one of his theories for why gay men are perhaps more promiscuous. A man is much better at reading another man’s body language, etc. Straight men or women may take forever to get the clue that the other party is in the mood for a shag since they may not understand all the signs that a person of the opposite sex is giving. This friend of mine is an average looking guy, but he was extremely promiscuous in his younger years. He felt like gays cut through a lot of the signals quite quickly because they pretty much know what the other guy is on about anyway. Sure, there are men and women who can quickly pick up the meaning of the opposite sex’s body language, but many of us can’t. This friend described getting laid in places where he didn’t even speak the language and he met the guys in “non-pickup” places like the subway or a bus. He described a time he was on the U-bahn in Germany. He noticed a nice looking guy on the train and immediately “knew” he was gay. They started making eye contact. They were back at the guys place fucking within 30 minutes of first seeing each other. The German spoke no English; no need I guess. They both knew what was on each other’s minds. How often does that sort of thing happen between a man and a women (excluding the straight man’s dreams?)?
[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“Cold Front”]
Heterosexual men would have much more sex if women would let us. But in their own little world of men with similar sexual preferences, gays do have sexual partners with similar strong sexual urges and the willingness to have sex. In such a world, bath houses, pick-up bars and the rapid transmission of venereal diseases abound.
Isn’t this biological determinism? No. In this case, biology is not destiny. We are talking about instincts here, and people can and do rebel against or tame their instincts. They also take into account other information that can shape their behavior. For example, since the 1980s, AIDS has certainly curbed gay men’s sexual promiscuity.[/quote]
Well done. Is this really the same Cold Front I wanted to drown in an outhouse?[/quote]
I don’t remember your fantasy about drowning me in an outhouse, but I do remember the Cold Front voodoo doll you were sticking pins in. 
Of course, people can control their instincts. But in most circumstances, why would a gay man want to? He can’t get his partner pregnant. He’s much more likely to have an equal or at least potential equal as a partner (and so isn’t attracted to someone who needs his protection). Unless there is a nasty disease going around or he and his partner have strong moral reservations about promiscuity, why would any gay man want to curb his instincts?
If he were in a monogamous relationship. I’m sure all of us would be in open relationships if we could be sure it would work (and didn’t have moral hangups about it). The problem is, we can’t be sure that an open relationship will not fuck up the existing bond, and from simple observation, it rarely works. And believe it or not, many gay men do not think that open relationships are okay.
Don
[quote=“street dog”]
If you’re in a long-term relationship, living together, sharing your life and the responsibilties of a happy, secure and loving home, the bond you have with your partner should be able to transcend a quick fuck with a stranger occassionally.[/quote]
I’m going to memorize this and quote it the next time my wife cathes me looking too long at another women on the MTR.
I don’t believe the optimal relationship should always be two persons, no matter which sexual orientation. However, it is easy to observe that psychological and physical stability is almost impossible to achieve when the company is more than 2. In old day, one person may easily become very dominant and may possibly stabilize the complex relationships. But now, everyone are granted basic rights that is good enough to overthrow any extreme dominant status of one person.
Not long ago, maybe 60 years or so, polygamy is not rare in Taiwan. Now everyone has a strong opinion why I should share my loved. Any relationship involving the third person causes anger and pain simultaneously in the partner. Most of people are blindly driven by forces surrounding them. To escape is a tiresome and painstaking job–not a piece of cake.
If viewing from this angle, I guess men have more opportunities to forgo a commitment. That causes men to live such lives. If one wants to analyze its reason, it takes long time and it can differ place to place.
Although people should keep fighting for woman rights and gay rights, society never give THOSE group a break thoroughly, right? Therefore, that women tend to be committal may derive from its society’s condition.
That is why we in the West invented the concept of hypocrisy. It’s considered a sin by many but it serves a useful purpose in many instances. The rules are that one is supposed to publicly proclaim fealty to the ideal of monogamy, while in practice pursuing the age-old honorable pursuit of sexual happiness, i.e. a mistress on the side. Politicians know how to play this game very well; all but a handful of American presidents carried on extra-marital affairs (James Buchanan, ironically, was perhaps the most faithful to his partner, and he wasn’t even married - he was gay!) According to the statistics 70% of married people admit to having had at least one affair. And that’s in North America - I’m dead certain that in Taiwan the percentage is even higher, at least for the men (can’t have the world’s highest per capita rate of brothels without lots of customers). Humans are not naturally monogamous primates - it goes against our basic sexual instincts. We aren’t random “I’ll fuck anything that moves!” dogs or bonobonos, either. We’re an awkwardly halfway monogamous, halfway polygamous species. We selfishly want the best of both worlds - the excitement & variety of polygamy, with the stability & warm companionship of monogamy. Most of us make a compromise by settling down with a partner while discretely sneaking around behind their back when we’re driven crazy by boredom. The ideal relationship that most men want is to have a good wife to come home to at night but with the freedom to fuck around whenever he’s “in the need for strange.” The only problem is that most of our wives and serious girlfriends won’t let us. So we reluctantly are henpecked into monogamy. Unless we think we can get away with it.
Well I was in an open relationship for 5 years and would still be with him if I hadn’t moved to another state and into another phase of my life. Anyway, the reason we had an open relationship was mainly because that’s what he wanted. He liked sex and a lot of different partners…go figure. So he would basically screw around and I would be there when he came back…
But on the other hand, I could deal with it because I grew up compartmentalizing everything…sex and love are easy to separate for me. Of course they are easy to combine as well. But as someone mentioned earlier, I can have sex without being in love…and I can be in love without having sex. Go figure.
And I have found most of the guys I date here say they want a boyfriend…which I think means monogamy but (in my experience) just means they are not going to tell me when they screw around! It’s pretty much like my current bf told me, ‘you can be with someone else if you want to but don’t tell me…I’m jealous and I will dump you.’ Don’t ask, don’t tell…
Are you a man or a woman? This is a very common male attitude. It’s easy for us to separate the two. I’m not so sure about women. From what I understand, it’s difficult to separate love and sex for most women. There are always exceptions, of course, but we’re talking about most men and women.
Sorry…guess I should have identified myself as a gay guy…;-)…
The Australians on board here…is this for real?!
