Geert Wilders gaining real political clout in Netherlands

Politics International Politics
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rnw.nl/english/bulletin/land … province-0

[quote]Landslide for Geert Wilders in Limburg province Published on 10 June 2010 - 8:40am
The Dutch province of Limburg, birthplace of one of Wednesday’s election winners Geert Wilders, has become Freedom Party country overnight. One in four voters in the province voted for the anti-Islam and anti-immigration party, making it the biggest party in many of Limburg’s districts.

The 26.9 percent result in the southernmost part of the Netherlands is a landslide victory for Mr Wilders whose party polled only 10 percent of the Limburg vote in the 2006 general elections.

Historically, the predominantly Roman Catholic population of the province voted Christian Democrat, but this year the electorate followed the national trend, leading to a fourth position for the once all-powerful party in Limburg.[/quote]

[quote]http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_538319.html
Jun 10, 2010
Election shocks Netherlands
THE HAGUE - THE spectacular election breakthrough of the far-right anti-Muslim Party for Freedom shocked the Netherlands on Thursday as two mainstream parties braced for weeks of coalition haggling.

The pro-business Liberal VVD party had 31 seats and the Labour party (PvdA) 30, with 98 per cent of the vote counted. But far-right PVV leader Geert Wilders demanded a share of government after his party came third with 24, more than doubling its seats in the 150 member parliament.

‘Nobody in The Hague can bypass the PVV anymore,’ said Mr Wilders, whose party wants an end to immigration from Muslim countries and a ban on new mosques and the Koran. ‘We want to be part of the new government,’ declared Mr Wilders, a distinctive figure with his shock of dyed blonde hair who has to live at secret addresses because of his controversial political stand. ‘The impossible has happened,’ he told a party gathering, hailing the PVV as ‘the biggest winner’ of the election. ‘The Netherlands chose more security, less crime, less immigration and less Islam.’[/quote]

Man, public opinion of Wilders sure seems to have done a 180. I wonder why? I mean that as a serious question, not a rhetorical one.
How bad is the situation in the Netherlands that Wilders has become this popular? The Dutch are famous for their tolerance, soooo…I just want to know more. I’m really curious to hear from Forumosans more familiar with the Netherlands than I.

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From the past hour:

[quote]http://www.headlinerwatch.com/2849/dutch-elections-results-verdict-exhibits-swing.htm
Shortly after some major European nations chose to align with the political right wing, the Dutch too has followed suit by voting to power the pro-business VVD party, headed by its prospective prime ministerial candidate, Mark Rutte.
The VVD party has claimed 31 of the 150 seats in the parliament, with the Labor party gathering 30. The anti-Islam Freedom Party of Geert Wilders has gone on to bag a surprising 24 seats. The ruling Christian Democrats were defeated badly, with its share being cut down nearly by fifty percent. [/quote]

I really wonder how many other countries will follow suit.

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Basically Hirsani al Ali(sp) exile, Theo Van Gogh’s murder, and Wilders’ kangaroo court trial have honed Dutch opinion on to what the real problem is and who at least acknowledges it.

Think about it, he’s the leader of a political party and he has to have 24/7 bodyguard protection and sleep on military bases for his own safety to protect him from his ideological opponents. Dutch are tolerant, but that is a situation that normal people would not tolerate.

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IIRC, there are some economic problems in the Netherlands (well, everywhere), and when you add that into that the murder of Fortuyn (not by an Islamic fundamentalist) and that movie maker (I think by a fundamentalist), plus I read somewhere some muslims want to have a “parallel justice system” of Shari’a law there or something… Economic woes + large scale immigration + a few murders of prominent people = increased right wing in my book. A Norwegian friend of mine said the same thing is happening in Norway with Somalians (anecdotal I know but still).

Even I am shocked at home much overall immigration - nevermind the overwhelming muslim immigration - that a lot of European countries have allowed. There are 16 million Dutch and 1 million moslems! Seems kinda high too me too and I’m a bloody liberal - the hell are all these people coming from???

Must be a couple of middle of the road, semi-objective dutch people lurking around forumosa who can provide insight

[edit] personally I doubt the economic problems have much to do with or have a solution related to the moslem or immigration “problems”, I’d have to see some hard numbers of “moslems stealing jobs” and “moslems sucking off the national teat while 'real dutch” work", otherwise its just propaganda and speculation by people naturally inclined to blame the Other

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Thanks for your answers. That really put things in perspective. You’re right, Okami, normal thinking people would be right to not tolerate that situation.

And TwoTongues - god I hat the Sharia Law thing. We have the same problem in Canada of certain individuals trying to push for a parallel justice system for them - one that allows them to treat their women like slaves. I don’t think they’ll ever accomplish it, thank goodness. Our percentage of Moslems is much lower.

I’m watching with interest because of course the question for us outside the Netherlands is “When will it happen here?”

How often does the Netherlands have elections? I’ll be very interested to watch the news across Europe as people react to the election results, and what happens in the future.

The whole thing depresses me, though. That it has to come to this. :doh:

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I think it will end when we finally figure out we are at war with another ideology and it requires a strong vocal resistance, blood and money to fight against. We’ve lost Europe. They’ve withdrawn into their liberalism and declining birthrates, invited in people who hate them and joined them in their festering antisemitism. Once you hate one group to death it’s very easy to jump to hating another group to death. The best we can hope for without a robust defense is to keep them out of North America till they proceed to wipe each other out.

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Holland’s been moving to the right of centre for a few years. Part of the inevitable pendulum of politics.

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Chuanzao: No, I am glad it has come to this, a political and legislative solution, rather than the Dutch sticking their heads in the sand and then, in ten or twenty years there being a lot of blood flowing on the streets.

I think you mean the bigger picture, but I think Europe long ago lost its raison d’etre, or at least any reason to stand up for it. I think Okami is right that Europe is largely a lost cause (although not Eastern Europe), but that it does serve as a good warning to other parts of the West. I actually think the U.S. played a large part in Europe’s demise because it allowed them to indulge their socialistic and multi-cultural claptrap during the Cold War while the U.S. picked up the tab (both economic and spiritual) for defence. When any population outsource their defence they lose a certain vitality. Maybe Europeans did need to lose a certain amount of their fighting spirit, but they went from the sublime to the ridiculous in a couple of generations. Likewise about their abysmal fertility rates. In the words of Tyler Durden, “I wanted to put a bullet between the eyes of every panda that wouldn’t screw to save its species.”

Okami: You mean Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Others, such as Brit Douglas Murray have safety issues when travelling in the Netherlands also.

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I agree with you about keeping persons likely to be dangerous views out of the country. I also agree that European countries have made a terrible - and naive - mistake by letting in so many people who are hostile to them (think 7/7).

In the mid-1800s, the British in India faced a rebellion against them by many Indian Muslims. Their grievences were rather similar to those of radical Muslims today - they quite understandably resented the presence of an infidel army on previously Muslim-ruled territory, and this grievance was magnified by the fact that the Muslim empire the British had destroyed and replaced was none other than the greatest Muslim power in the world at the time. Their rage was, if anything, greater than the antipathy towards the UK among many Muslims around the world today - particularly, but not exclusively, among those of a fundamentalist religious persuasion.

Although Britain suffered numerous casualties amongst its soldiers in India - and among a small number of unfortunate British civilians there, to the best of my knowledge, not a single man, woman or child on the island of Britain itself was a casualty. Why? Simply because those who would have wished to harm them were safely thousands of miles across the sea, and not in Britain - unlike on 7 July, 2005.

Radical Muslim fundamentalists have no air force, no navy worth mentioning, and only a very pitiful and ill-equipped army. Some Muslim nations (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey etc.) do have relatively advanced weaponry, but they are still no match whatsoever for Western forces, and are all either allied with the West, or are in no position to enter into hostilities with us. Everyone needs to keep some perspective here. The West - even excluding the United States - possesses military superiority over virtually any other states or combination thereof. We face no credible threat of invasion.

So - I agree with you on the subject of immigration, and this is something that could - and ought - to be changed overnight. It would be a simple matter to introduce legislation designed to keep persons likely to want to do us harm out. It should be no problem to find the will to execute it, also - but then again, given the politics of immigration in the US, in practice, it might be harder than I would like.

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I’m afraid you are right about this, what happened in the Balkans in the 90’s will eventually happen in western Europe.
Most of western Europeans are weak and blind. Human rights are good things, but immigrants take advantage of it (they just need to say ‘‘If I go back to Africa, they will kill me’’) and therefore they actually invade western Europe.
And if France birthrate is over 2.0 now, it’s mainly because of the African immigrants. Also, France welcomes every year 200 000 immigrants. By 2050-2060, France will be predominantly Muslim.

The biggest mistake that made European politics is to think we can do just like the USA, create a multicultural society, now we are on the verge of a civil war :thumbsup:
Sometimes I think that if the USSR army liberated the whole continental Europe in 1945, we wouldn’t have these problems.

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I’m afraid you are right about this, what happened in the Balkans in the 90’s will eventually happen in western Europe.
Most of western Europeans are weak and blind. Human rights are good things, but immigrants take advantage of it (they just need to say ‘‘If I go back to Africa, they will kill me’’) and therefore they actually invade western Europe.
And if France birthrate is over 2.0 now, it’s mainly because of the African immigrants. Also, France welcomes every year 200 000 immigrants. By 2050-2060, France will be predominantly Muslim.

The biggest mistake that made European politics is to think we can do just like the USA, create a multicultural society, now we are on the verge of a civil war :thumbsup:
Sometimes I think that if the USSR army liberated the whole continental Europe in 1945, we wouldn’t have these problems.[/quote]

I think this is the most depressing thing I’ll read all day, I hate to think that civil war is the future. :frowning:

Also, LURKER: Muslims are fond of saying “You (the West) have the nuclear bomb, but we have the population bomb.” It’s true. If the Moslem immigrants in Western countries breed so prolifically as to make non-Moslems the minority, they don’t have to fight, all they have to do is vote.

The USA is lucky to have so many Mexican immigrants. Mexicans are mostly devout Christians. While this has it’s own set of problems, i.e. anti-gay rights, creationism, etc, at least we can count on them not converting to Islam.

I fear the world our grandchildren will be living in. I wonder if one day my grandkids will be asking me “Grandpa, why didn’t you fight it while you still could?”

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Interesting conversation. I remember when it was the Asians who were the problem. Confucianism/Hinduism was to blame for this, that or the other. Very different conversation from the 1970s and the 1990s and now the 2010s. Perhaps, the Arab World will eventually reform the same way? I have reason to believe that it will. I think that Iraq will be the spark that spurs that flame of progress. I also recall that in terms of violent terrorism, it was the hippies of the 1960s and 1970s that were all about revolution and bombings and violent protest. These “movements” seem to peak during population peaks (when the number of young males as a percentage of total is at its highest). Today’s outrageous behavior from wealthy, well-educated Muslims can be directly with cossetted Me Generation that spawned the hippies and even Motaneros in Argentina. Materially spoiled but spiritually unfulfilled. Fast forward 20 years and we will see something entirely different EXCEPT in high population growth nations like Yemen, Saudi Arabia, some Gulf Arab states and most worrying the ever-breeding lumpentheotariat (my invention) of the West Bank and even worse the Gaza Strip. As to the population bomb, we learned very quickly in America that welfare reform ended the “incentives” to churn out the lumpenfeed/clothemetariat. I suggest that Europe worry less about the Muslims than about fostering a culture of dependency and for exactly the same reasons.

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So here we have this sinister group of Middle Easterners who look funny, talk funny and practice an evil, non-christian religion coming in to take over our cities and destroy our way of life.

When and where have we heard that one before – with just as much passion and conviction as we’re hearing it now?

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[quote=“politbureau”]So here we have this sinister group of Middle Easterners who look funny, talk funny and practice an evil, non-christian religion coming in to take over our cities and destroy our way of life.

When and where have we heard that one before – with just as much passion and conviction as we’re hearing it now?[/quote]
Seriously man, it’s entirely unfair to single out muslims here, I’ve read it in umpteen posts. I’m no fan of religion in general and islam in particular, but come on you guys, most moslems are not fundamentalist and violent. It’s one thing to oppose overimmigration and another to oppose specifically moslem immigration, and it’s one thing to oppose funadmentalist islam and a whole other thing to oppose freedom to worship islam in general.

A lot of you guys rant about big government and big brother and loss of freedoms but have less problem arguing for it to be taken away or denied to people who are weird faced with a fucked up (though non-violent for most) religion, that’s pretty double standard to me. Tightening immigration standards, increasing background checks for immigrants, strengthening borders, enforcing deportation, and reducing the overall immigration quotas are all nominally non-bigoted responses, why all the animosity toward islam when it’s violent moslems and the economic load of immigrants in general that’s the real problem that even a lot of liberals can agree on?

And another thing: just because many European countries allowed in more immigrants and refugees from shitty countries is a whole lot more morally righteous than shutting out too many. I’m happy to agree that they’ve been way too slow in clamping down on it, but it seems more like a right wing attack on taxation policies and social safety nets than a reasoned argument against immigration when you go off on “weak kneed” post WW2 European countries being too generous at the expense of US dollars for defense.

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[quote=“politbureau”]So here we have this sinister group of Middle Easterners who look funny, talk funny and practice an evil, non-christian religion coming in to take over our cities and destroy our way of life.
[/quote]

That is grossly oversimplifying and misrepresenting what everyone is saying on here. It’s not about “looking funny”…etc, it’s about setting up a parallel legal structure, throwing acid in schoolgirls’ faces, flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, assassinating cartoonists, committing honor killings, and so on.

[quote=“politbureau”]

When and where have we heard that one before – with just as much passion and conviction as we’re hearing it now?[/quote]

Alluding to Hitler, are we? :unamused: I don’t recall Jews in Europe bombing the Tube or assassinating people, so I’d say that the fact that no one is calling for a “final solution” to the current state of affairs speaks well of the current generation.

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[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”] It’s not about “looking funny”…etc, it’s about setting up a parallel legal structure, throwing acid in schoolgirls’ faces, flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, assassinating cartoonists, committing honor killings, and so on.
[/quote]

European countries generally have laws against all of these things, so what’s your problem? treat everyone by the same standards and there’s no issue.

and was it not that big ole USA that trumpets (in bronze proudly at the Statue of Liberty, among other places):
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

where has that sentiment gone to?

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[quote=“urodacus”][quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”] It’s not about “looking funny”…etc, it’s about setting up a parallel legal structure, throwing acid in schoolgirls’ faces, flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, assassinating cartoonists, committing honor killings, and so on.
[/quote]

European countries generally have laws against all of these things, so what’s your problem? treat everyone by the same standards and there’s no issue.
[/quote]

Problem is, European countries do not enforce their own laws anymore, police have already lost the control of entire cities, like in the northern part of Paris region. Even postmen and firemen are being kicked out.

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[quote=“JFP”][quote=“urodacus”][quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”] It’s not about “looking funny”…etc, it’s about setting up a parallel legal structure, throwing acid in schoolgirls’ faces, flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, assassinating cartoonists, committing honor killings, and so on.
[/quote]

European countries generally have laws against all of these things, so what’s your problem? treat everyone by the same standards and there’s no issue.
[/quote]

Problem is, European countries do not enforce their own laws anymore, police have already lost the control of entire cities, like in the northern part of Paris region. Even postmen and firemen are being kicked out.[/quote]

I’m interested and want to know more. If you come across any news articles or videos can you post links to them here?

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[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”][quote=“JFP”][quote=“urodacus”][quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”] It’s not about “looking funny”…etc, it’s about setting up a parallel legal structure, throwing acid in schoolgirls’ faces, flying planes into buildings, blowing up subways, assassinating cartoonists, committing honor killings, and so on.
[/quote]

European countries generally have laws against all of these things, so what’s your problem? treat everyone by the same standards and there’s no issue.
[/quote]

Problem is, European countries do not enforce their own laws anymore, police have already lost the control of entire cities, like in the northern part of Paris region. Even postmen and firemen are being kicked out.[/quote]

I’m interested and want to know more. If you come across any news articles or videos can you post links to them here?[/quote]

If you read French, you can read this:
lepoint.fr/actualites-societ … 0/0/213378

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[quote]

And another thing: just because many European countries allowed in more immigrants and refugees from shitty countries is a whole lot more morally righteous than shutting out too many. I’m happy to agree that they’ve been way too slow in clamping down on it, but it seems more like a right wing attack on taxation policies and social safety nets than a reasoned argument against immigration when you go off on “weak kneed” post WW2 European countries being too generous at the expense of US dollars for defense.[/quote]

I’m not neccessarily apposed to Muslim immigration per se, as if it is done in the correct way, it can even be beneficial to a country. For example, one could definitely say that the populations in Dearborn, Michigan, or the Persian diaspora in Los Angeles have represented the best of Muslim immigration to the Western World.

However, the problems with Europe are two fold. First of all, the populations are not used to immigration, so there is the whole integration problem. But the greatest problem is one of competitiveness. It was Asian statesman Lee Kuan Yew that stated almost half a decade ago:

[quote=“Lee Kuan Yew”]
You Europeans are becoming a Third World country, you spend time on the wrong subjects –the constitution, the welfare state, the pensions crisis – and you systematically give the wrong answers to the questions you raise.” [/quote]

As long as it remains difficult to hire and fire workers in continental European countries, as long as governments continue to vote in socialist governments or Conservative governments that act like socialists, as long as redistributive taxation policies are the norm, as long as their social safety nets are way too generous, and as long as their educational systems are so money poor compared to their American counterparts, then economic growth will be moribund. And let’s be damn honest here–GDP growth in some North American countries will reach 4 percent this year, much higher than expected and and illustrative that the recovery is continuing. In Brazil, China, Russia, and other emerging countries, it is in high single or low double digits. In Europe, on the other hand, growth is almost at zero. I’m so bearish on Old Europe. :laughing: :smiley:

They should have been making tough economic choices a decade ago instead of fudging their budgets. Europe’s economic growth is going to remain moribund for years to come unless their political class decides to implement some pretty harsh austerity measures in certain countries and make some substantive structural changes? Who will oppose this? The usual troika of union workers, leftists, and provileged leftish eurocrat MEPs.

And here is where I do buy into the Mark Steyn argument. With declining birthrates, with generous social safety nets, with a highly aging population, with so many workers leaving for greener pastures, what have they done? Enacted policies that promote immigration despite the fact their populations aren’t used to it on such a large scale. It’s the only way they can fund their inefficient system and the ‘political whores’ can get new votes. In Canada, Trudeau’s multiculturalism policy gave his Federal Liberal party almost a monopoly on the immigrant vote for almost three decades. They almost always automatically voted Liberal, although this has changed in time.

I expect it is the same in Europe with these immigrants now voting for the social democratic option and probably doing so for at least a decade or two, especially if they don’t integrate and become financially self sufficent.

If there wasn’t such an urgency to get these immigrants over in mass numbers to keep maintaining the tax base, governments could spend more time getting native populations ready for more immigration [carefully controlled] and developing systems that are better able to determine what immigrants will actually be an economic benefit to the country.

It’s good to see that some opposition political parties are gaining more support that are willing to make hard choices because the risk-adverse dilletantism of the majority of European decision makers won’t get them out of this crisis. They real solution is to become much more competitive. Unless they do, then Lee Kuan Yew’s prediction will continue to be true. :laughing: I can see why the European Socialists kicked Lee out of Socialist International back in the 1970s. Too blunt! :laughing: :smiley: