Geert Wilders gaining real political clout in Netherlands

[quote=“Chewycorns”]However, the problems with Europe are two fold. First of all, the populations are not used to immigration, so there is the whole integration problem. But the greatest problem is one of competitiveness. It was Asian statesman Lee Kuan Yew that stated almost half a decade ago:

[quote=“Lee Kuan Yew”]
You Europeans are becoming a Third World country, you spend time on the wrong subjects –the constitution, the welfare state, the pensions crisis – and you systematically give the wrong answers to the questions you raise.” [/quote][/quote]
Man, I’m so glad you quoted Lee Kuan Yew and didn’t have the gall to mention democracy in the same post. That’s a relief, the guy was practically a fascist. He didn’t give a rats ass about social welfare, he cared about free markets and maintaining his own political power.

It’s also not so easy in the US, or in Taiwan for that matter, but I’m agreeing with you on this point, it’s one of the failings of most western or western-style governments

That’s what social safety nets are for, for when times are bad. Economic growth is overrated. Full employment and economic safety and stability are much better goals. And no matter what restrictions a government puts on business, regulatory or taxes, business will always find a way to keep going under that set of policies (that doesn’t justify adding restrictions for restrictions sake, but I think you’re overvaluing growth at the expense of optimal social strategy). And I’d like to see the comparative results of the European and American education systems - I don’t care how much is being paid, aren’t Europeans generally better educated and their schools better as well than in the US?

Is that really why the European countries are allowing in too many immigrants? To increase their tax base and political power? I’d like to see some objective evidence of that, it’s hard to see how allowing in too many poor and migrant workers is gonna boost your tax revenue, if that is what you’re arguing.

[quote=“TwoTongues”]
Man, I’m so glad you quoted Lee Kuan Yew and didn’t have the gall to mention democracy in the same post. That’s a relief, the guy was practically a fascist. He didn’t give a rats ass about social welfare, he cared about free markets and maintaining his own political power. [/quote]
Look, I’ve been quite critical of Lee in many previous posts, but let’s not spread incorrect information here. Singapore has had democratic elections since it became independent. Despite its tactics of prosecuting the opposition for slander on a few occasions, these elections have taken place and opposition members have been elected. Saying he’s doesn’t give a rat’s ass about social welfare is just plain false. Housing ownership in Singapore is higher than 90 percent. Medical care is open and accessible to people of all classes, and the central provident fund helps people save for retirement, pay a downpayment on a house, and pay for their medical care. Scholarships, often to overseas places, are common for employers in Singapore. Despite the capitalist framework and open economy, communitarian and collective mentalities still permeate both the private and public sectors. It’s Asian values, and while I don’t agree with some aspects of it, it’s false to say he doesn’t care about social welfare. The simple fact is this, if he didn’t, the majority of Singaporeans wouldn’t feel compelled to vote for him again and again if he didn’t deliver. They have because he has delivered on things important to the heartlanders. They have a flat in their name, their kids have access to free education, and there is major upward mobility for driven people.

Problems is that they are misused widely in America and parts of Europe, so that, in effect, it creates a culture of laziness, entitlement, and lack of innovation.

And haven’t Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea led in these areas when compared with Europe’s chronic high unemployment in most countries there?

These costs are huge for business. If there are a set of rules and regulations in place A and these are different in place b, then requires businesses to understand and comply with these differences. This is a huge cost to business. Imagine if they didn’t face these barriers. The saved money could go to extra jobs and capital improvements.

[quote]
And I’d like to see the comparative results of the European and American education systems - I don’t care how much is being paid, aren’t Europeans generally better educated and their schools better as well than in the US? [/quote]
I am talking about post secondary system. American system is much better funded, attracts the best talents, and has much better commercialization of research. The Europeans don’t even come close.

I agree. It’s the mistake so many elites are making in Europe. The reason elites have been pushing Muslim immigration is to try to increase the tax base so there are more young workers paying taxes to support the growing elderly population. However, I don’t really think they’ve thought this policy out. In my opinion, many Muslims tend to have large extended families, but often work in menial service based jobs (sorta like many arts grads :laughing: ). This means that instead of contributing to the tax base as the elites think they will, many end up being welfare bums. In addition, it’s unlikely that Muslim welfare kids will grow up into productive workers. In continental Europe, today’s elites fail to comprehend, only the most successful can afford to have large families without government help, yet it is the most intelligent and successful who tend to have the smallest families. If European countries fail in some sort of American-style welfare reform, Europe could slide down to socio-economic level of the overpopulated Middle-Eastern countries from which Muslim immigrants are leaving.

[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“TwoTongues”]
Man, I’m so glad you quoted Lee Kuan Yew and didn’t have the gall to mention democracy in the same post. That’s a relief, the guy was practically a fascist. He didn’t give a rats ass about social welfare, he cared about free markets and maintaining his own political power. [/quote]
Look, I’ve been quite critical of Lee in many previous posts, but let’s not spread incorrect information here. Singapore has had democratic elections since it became independent. Despite its tactics of prosecuting the opposition for slander on a few occasions, these elections have taken place and opposition members have been elected. Saying he’s doesn’t give a rat’s ass about social welfare is just plain false.

The simple fact is this, if he didn’t, the majority of Singaporeans wouldn’t feel compelled to vote for him again and again if he didn’t deliver. They have because he has delivered on things important to the heartlanders. They have a flat in their name, their kids have access to free education, and there is major upward mobility for driven people.[/quote]
I’m not arguing that a strong hand wasn’t needed to start the country, I’m saying social welfare is not his care, it’s discipline and maintaining his power. He is a believer in self sufficiency and free markets, and in his country, that has turned out for the better - but has it? What is the poverty line in Singapore? According to the CIA factsheet, there is no poverty line, which means “poverty” on a scale compatible with that measured by other countries can not be measured in Singapore. He and his cohorts have put together a semi-fascist one-party country through denying freedoms, stifling reporting, and concealing the truth. On a scale of “bad places”, of course it’s light years better than Pakistan, Iran, etc, but let’s not confuse being far better with Lee and his party with actually being good. Maybe there should be a Singapore policies discussion topic, I’d like to see how it stacks up.

Problems is that they are misused widely in America and parts of Europe, so that, in effect, it creates a culture of laziness, entitlement, and lack of innovation.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you mean by “misused” - inefficient maybe, though you have to expect some measure of inefficiency. I would argue that some European countries innovate fairly well despite this so-called culture, and in any case, I’ll trade some “innovation” (another word for “progress”) for security and stability any day, as would most Europeans apparently. I agree it can be done better, and I agree there needs to be better enforcement of rules in some countries, but to say their systems are systemically flawed I think is an exaggeration.

And haven’t Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea led in these areas when compared with Europe’s chronic high unemployment in most countries there?[/quote]
As I replied above, they do need to do better to get endemic teat suckers off the rolls of unemployment, but cleaning up the abusers does not have to mean overhauling the system. As I replied above, Singapore is hardly open to self-analysis. And I would argue the economy of Taiwan is not a place to look for a poster child, I think the boom and bust cycle is very clear here. And hey, they have a great nationalized health care system eh? I wouldn’t be arguing so much if the US had one, and that’s a fact.

These costs are huge for business. If there are a set of rules and regulations in place A and these are different in place b, then requires businesses to understand and comply with these differences. This is a huge cost to business. Imagine if they didn’t face these barriers. The saved money could go to extra jobs and capital improvements.[/quote]
…and for lining the pockets of owners, executives, and investors. If they could be forced into putting the majority of the huge profits into extra jobs and capital improvements, I would agree with you more, but that’s not what happens, or rather, it doesn’t happen enough, and the executives and major stockholders end up with huge incomes and windfall profits. And I’m sure you know very well that there is a lot of motivation to reduce the western workforce and to move the work to places with far lower wages and lax workplace and environmental laws - to me you’re just talking failed supply side theory again.

[quote]The biggest mistake that made European politics is to think we can do just like the USA, create a multicultural society, now we are on the verge of a civil war :thumbsup:
Sometimes I think that if the USSR army liberated the whole continental Europe in 1945, we wouldn’t have these problems.[/quote]

I wouldn’t go that far. You only need ask Ukrainians who lived under Stalin how good that was for them. The Soviet Union didn’t “liberate” Eastern Europe. It sought to increase its territory and influence. Again, ask a Hungarian about 1956 to see how that worked out. On that very matter, if you look at a pre-WW2 map of Europe, you’ll actually see that Hungary didn’t have a border with the Soviet Union (at that point, Czechoslovakia actually bordered Romania), but afterwards it did, probably so it could easily roll the tanks into Budapest as it did in '56. Furthermore, Russians had/have virtually no cultural connection to France or any other Western European nation, so the degree to which Russian culture would have “preserved” French culture is debatable.

Just read a magazine from home (Germany, Der Spiegel). The few Nazis we have in West Germany and the lots of Nazis we have in smaller East Germany are forming an alliance. They have a photo there from a Synagogue I once visited (in Worms), it is a rebuild, as the original was burned down in Nazi times. I always remembered this building and the nice day I had there with friends, admiring the somewhat sad building (sad because the community is gone). Now the photo shows it with a big black scorch mark on the front. Someone attacked it with a Molotov cocktail.

In my hometown Hannover there was a neighborhood feast where singers and dancers performed, then a Jewish dancing group is announced. Suddenly a chorus of children voices shout “Jews out!”, they cannot be stopped and throw stones at the Jewish performers injuring them. Sweet little kids of Muslim immigrant families.

Two Israel tourists were in a Disco in Berlin, someone hears their language and asks “where you from”. “Israel” they say and the guy starts attacking them. A Palestinian living in Germany. The doorman of the disco comes to the rescue. Rescue of the Palestinian, because the doorman is Turkish. And probably doesn’t like Jews either.

Germany in 2010. Sounds rather like 1933. Ah, and a lot of such hatred-filled Muslims have a German passport.
I am starting to feel a hot wave of emotions against them, which is scary in its own right.

F*ck the fatherland, in 2040 it will be Muslim Republic of Germanistan. And that’s nowhere I would want to be.

[quote=“bob_honest”]
I am starting to feel a hot wave of emotions against them, which is scary in its own right.

F*ck the fatherland, in 2040 it will be Muslim Republic of Germanistan. And that’s nowhere I would want to be.[/quote]

Exactly the same in France. :s

Look, I’m not having a go at either of you, because I’ve chosen to leave Australia and probably won’t go back to living there any time soon (partly for economic reasons, and partly for cultural reasons, though not quite those you’re talking about), so I can understand all about thinking it’s better to go where the grass is greener rather than go on some one man mission to change society.

Never-the-less, I think that Europe is going to get more extreme as more (seemingly reasonable) people like you leave. I fear that at some point, there is going to be a real rise of neo-fascism again and there will be blood on the streets.

Although I’m Canadian and haven’t been to Europe, I agree with the last three posters. Except I think German history will work against Germans. I predict ordinary Germans will do nothing to stop the takeover or their country by Islam because they’re afraid of accusations that they are acting like their past.

Actually, I believe that’s a big part of the problem in Europe. Everyone is so afraid of comparisons to the holocaust that all any Muslim need to do is bring it up and politicians will cave right in and do their bidding.

I think it’s more than that because there’s somewhat of a similar phenomenon amongst certain people in other non-European nations, though often not to the same extent. I think it’s a combination of not actually knowing enough about Western culture (or much about any topic for that matter) and its origins and ordeals, etc. on the one hand (and thus, thinking things were always such and will, therefore, always be such) and a kind of gross nacissism and obsession with instant gratification on the other. I’m not exactly sure what people believe in, if anything. Apple? Gucci? BMW? Holidays at Ko Samui?