[quote=“Loretta”]Edit: In the light of Traveller’s last few posts this one is largely redundant. I’ll leave it, for the record, but I think Traveller has clarified his position a bit more and don’t want to get into more of a shitfight with the guy.
Traveller, maybe you read that before you read my apology or PM? I certainly hope so.
Please read back through your own posts. From where I sit, your attitude is that smoking and pubs are inseperable and anyone who doesn’t like it can just go home. That may not be what you meant to say, and I don’t believe that it’s what you truly think, but it’s what you appear to be saying.
If I appear to be saying that smoking is not acceptable then maybe I should clarify: I ‘accept’ smoking because I don’t have any choice and unless people start actually blowing smoke in my face, or sitting down with me while I’m eating with a cigarette in their hand, then I don’t usually mention it. This rarely happens, because most smokers are as considerate as you are in real life.
But that doesn’t mean that I like smoking, or that I don’t wish for better. To have my desire for a less damaging and more pleasant environment dismissed as whining, and to be labelled a prick, is insulting. To be labelled a whining prick, and told to go home for having a perfectly reasonable wish is worse than insulting. But you don’t seem to recognise that I have a reasonable desire.
You seem to believe that smoking is normal and acceptable, particularly in social venues, and that anyone who doesn’t agree is being unreasonable and is trying to impose their values on you.
I am not trying to impose my values on you. I have not advocated any change in anyone’s policy. I haven’t even complained about your behaviour in real life, because I don’t have any grounds for complaint. But I have asked you to recognise and indicate some respect for the very deeply-help beliefs and values that have been expressed here. I have asked you to stop being dismissive, to stop telling people to go home, and simply to show a little respect for what we believe.
This is different from respecting the wishes of non-smokers by being considerate, which you do very well. I’m asking you to try and respect the beliefs that make people ask for consideration in the first place. But you don’t seem to get that.
I’m respecting the right to smoke which you have claimed, but you don’t seem to recognise that anyone else has any right to anything.
And what’s with this hiding behind the law bullshit? Laws are made in response the values of society, as expressed by the population. The only rights we have are the rights that people have insisted upon. You have heard of the Magna Carta, peasant’s revolt, Tolpuddle Martyrs, sufragettes, etc.? If no-one protests then nothing ever improves.
The laws regarding smoking have been changed in many countries AFTER people began to express a desire for change. That hasn’t happened YET in Taiwan, and when it does happen it won’t be in response to an argument between people who don’t have voting rights here. So let’s debate the issue, rather than hide behind the legislative environment in a newly-democratised police state where awareness of social and environmental issues has not yet matured.
Once more, will you please recognise that people who don’t smoke have as much ‘right’ to ask for an environment that suits them as you do? Will you recognise that pubs are not automatically ‘smoking permitted’ any more than they are automatically ‘smoke-free’?
The policies implemented by the management, patrons, and regulators of the hospitality industry should be set in response to the needs and wishes of all concerned, not just one lobby. This is a tough call to make, as Alleycat found out, and one which has to be worked out with respect on all sides. The first step is to understand just how deeply many people feel about being FORCED to breathe cigarette smoke when they go out, and also for non-smokers to recognise the power of addiction and the futility of trying to make people stop.
We all know that there are logistical issues and costs involved in finding a solution to this growing problem, but if solutions are to be found then there needs to be more appreciation on both sides of where the other side is coming from. Half-hearted segregation and voluntary measures don’t seem to be working for anyone, neither is bitching and sniping and dismissing ‘them’ as selfish or unreasonable.
We are collectively a pretty bright bunch of people, so why can’t we work out a better way of doing things? Is it because we’re all clinging emotionally to our needs without stopping to think/care about the effect our perfect solution would have on the other side?[/quote]
Loretta
I think we know each other well enough to realise that some emotive comments on a forum is not going to be taken to seriously. It works both ways and maybe some of my posts were at least in tone a little OTT to which i will apologise to all concerned. This topic can get very emotive very quickly.
If you organise smoke free get togethers then dont forget some of us smokers, though it might appear not Sandman can, could and would be prepared to forgive our habit for a couple of hours, or if not then at least vacate the building to enjoy our fix.
In regard to the element in bold above, then i am more than willing to accept they have as much right, and if anyone reads through my posts i have not actually said that they dont.