Futhermore Juba, cut the smoke and mirrors. Change your “from :taibei to Tai Beijing.”
Ask Flipper, he’s the one who thinks that even a photo, not to mention the text, on a Chinese person’s web site can’t be objective.
You poor people are having a hard time because your belief systems are being slightly challenged. Did I blame the students? No, I did not even mention students. Did I say the rioters were students? No, that is your assumption. Did I say that the rioting was unjustified? No, just that it took place. There is no need to put words into my mouth - just deal with what I actually said.
And yes, the bei in Taibei is the same character as the bei in Beijing - just in case you didn’t realise.
Quiz time
Is this:
- Beijing
- Somalia
- Afghanistan
- Los Angeles, USA
Find the answer here: www.fragmentsweb.org/stuff/photking.html
Thanks for the reminder how troops are used to keep the peace and , more to the topic, the face of racism in America.
I like the quote at the bottom of the home page.
QUOTE OF THE MONTH
The practice of violence, like all action, changes the world, but the most probable change is to a more violent world.
Hannah Arendt
On Power
“And yes, the bei in Taibei is the same character as the bei in Beijing - just in case you didn’t realise.”
So this means you side with Beijing? Where is the Austrian Beijing connection?
Or are you just a non-violent pacifist opposed to all violence in American intervention?
I oscillate between Martin Luther King and Malcom X myself.
quote:
Originally posted by wwwright: "And yes, the bei in Taibei is the same character as the bei in Beijing - just in case you didn't realise." So this means you side with Beijing? Where is the Austrian Beijing connection?
You have completely lost me here. What are you talking about?
you’re too funny, juba. you spend all this time bashing huge news organizations with research and editorial staffs as being biased and somehow lacking in objectivity. when asked to supply alternatives which are more objective, you send us to a geocities site thrown together by a college student in china and the china news digest site.
so your argument is that:
1.) all the major english language newspapers(aussie, brit, canadian, us) that i read are biased
2.) objective news can be had from personal web sites and the china news digest.
hmmm…
btw, how does a photo of a dead guy in any substantiate the wild stories you’ve made up about how the student rioters initiated the military crackdown by being destructive and unruly?
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taibei is the Chinese Hanyu Pinyin spelling of Taipei.
Even Google asks me: “Did you mean: taipei taiwan?”
I assume from the reasoning of your postings and your use of taibei that you are from or were educated in Beijing because you seem to use the same reasoning for your arguments as people from Shanghai and Beijing I work with. -
Your information: http://members.msn.com/default.msnw?mem=julian_clegg@asiatrademart.com&pgmarket= leads to
http://profiles.yahoo.com/julian_clegg
where one of your interests is Austria. I assume you must be from Austria since you say you are European.
So where is the Austrian-Beijing connection? or have you liberated someone else’s identity?
Weight all this said with the knowledge that one should never assume anything.
What are you on about, Flipper? Not anywhere have I used the phrase “student rioters,” nor have I claimed that the crackdown was caused by the riot. Could be that the riot was caused by the crackdown, couldn’t it? That doesn’t detract from the fact that a riot took place, unless you think that burning buses and killing people is only a riot when it happens in Los Angeles or Seattle.
As to newspapers and magazines, I have already sourced from the Guardian and Time Magazine, but that seems to have passed you by. I could also mention the New York Times, whose correspondent Nicholas Kristof was actually in the square during the crackdown, unlike most of the journalists, who were hiding in the Beijing Hotel and copying each other’s stories. Since I used to work for an American news agency in Beijing, I have a fair notion of idea how they do their job.
I also like your idea that any newspaper with a research department must be objective, but an individual can’t be. You must take everything you read in the People’s Daily as gospel truth, then. And as for you, you’re just some guy who thinks he’s a dolphin and goes posting round obscure expatriate noticeboards in a small island country - so you can’t be objective at all, by your own definition. The same applies to me, too, of course.
The difference between you and me, in fact, is that I spent a year in Beijing not long after the events in question, and talked to quite a lot of people who were involved. My knowledge of the events is only second hand, it’s true, but that does beat third, fourth and fifth hand.
Now how are we going to get this thread back to the subject of Germany?
quote:
Originally posted by wwwright: I assume you must be from Austria since you say you are European.
That is an interesting assumption. There are quiet a lot of other countries in Europe besides Austria, actually - one of which is Germany
There we are, back on the subject of Germany at last!
nice dodging the question.
The topic is right wing poitics. I still say you could tell us about right wing politics in Austria.
FYI sites on Tiananmen:
http://www.democracy.org.hk/weeknew/june3.htm
http://www.cjr.org/year/98/5/tiananmen.asp
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/
Take your pick. Maybe the PLA shot after one of their people were killed. Good show of riot control.
Maybe more workers and laborers were killed than students actually in the square. Maybe that’s who they really wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by wwwright: Maybe more workers and laborers were killed than students actually in the square.
Well done, Wwwright, you are heading in the right direction here. Try substituting street vendors for workers and labourers and you will be even nearer the mark.
Coming from Oakland, you should know a bit about violent conflict between civilians and state forces. I just stumbled across this page with an extraordinary photograph: The Battle of Oakland
juba, i don’t think you even know what the word “objective” means.
you make up and repeat unsubstantiated claims about events with no supporting evidence whatsoever.
you criticize the biased us media and show us instead the much superior news sources you use…a PERSONAL GEOCITIES WEBSITE and the CHINA NEWS DIGEST. you do realize that the cnd pulls their news from afp, right?
you slander us servicemen by labeling them murders and torturers and yet you have NO proof whatsoever. mind linking to the article where you got this gem from?
here’s a quick test, what does the word “objective” mean? and how is the example you gave of an objective news site(cnd.org) MORE objective than the washington post(washingtonpost.com)?
quote:
Originally posted by Flipper: how is the example you gave of an objective news site(cnd.org) MORE objective than the washington post(washingtonpost.com)?
There you go again. Where did I say that the China News Digest is more objective than the Washington Post? I haven’t even mentioned the Washington Post so far. I did mention Time Magazine, the Guardian and the New York Times, but those aren’t good enough for you, it seems - although it was you who mentioned the Guardian in the first place.
You want some links to the story about American soldiers in Afghanistan behaving like Nazi SS. It is unfortunate that the colour of link text on Oriented is not much different from that of ordinary text, so you did not spot the link I gave above.
Here are five links for you to click on:
The Independent (South Africa)
The Scotsman
Salon
The World Socialist Web Site
The Guardian…Et Tu, Guardian!
having been in Beijing during the “Riot”, and my first wife taking part in the “Riot”, I feel a little qualified to comment.
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The days leading upto the final nasty events were controlled,happy, exciting and quite amazing.
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I was given a free holiday to the mountains on the second day of gentle protest.
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My then girlfriend phone me from home and said she was going to join the party !!!
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Li Peng , then ordered the troops in and the situation got well out of hand. Tanks crushed several hundred in the panic alone. several of my close friends in Beijing lost brothers, husbands,wives,sons and daughters
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My wife (who is now dead, so can’t remind me), thought that more than 300 died within the first 12 hours.
Some of the pictures, are quite amazing, the best being of the “soldier” who is hanging from Dong dan bridge, gutted and burnt. In a uniform that looks good enough for drill inspection. Do I need to spell it out for you !!!
I’m sorry this post is off-topic, but when I see a westerner, who should know better, talk such utter utter bullsh*t, it enrages me
quote:
Originally posted by subway52: Do I need to spell it out for you !!!!
No, you don’t. I’ll save you the trouble. The soldiers were the bad guys and the people fighting the soldiers were the good guys. Therefore any photograph of a dead civilian must be real, but any photograph of a dead soldier must be a cardboard cutout.
quote:
Originally posted by Juba:What is interesting here is how often Americans complain about other countries killing “their own” people, as if this were somehow worse than killing people who are not “their own” - the most obvious example being the suppression of the 1989 riot in Beijing, in which about 300 people were killed.
My ex-wife was in Beijing during Tiananmen and in Chungking a week afterwards. She was an eye witness and firmly stated that far more that any “300” were murdered.
Were you or anyone you know there?
Juba, do the Communist Chinese pay you to bend over for them or do you do it for free?
How wonderfully appropo:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020705/140/d2slb.html
Nazi ‘Butcher’ Jailed
A former SS officer known as the “Butcher of Genoa” has been jailed for the massacre of dozens of Italian prisoners.Freidrich Engel, 93, was found guilty of ordering the murders of 59 Italian navy commandos in May 1944.The commandos were chained together in small groups and shot one after another.Another ex-German officer told the trial that Engel had even shown one of his men how to finish off a wounded prisoner by shooting him in the head.
Revenge
Now an old man, Engel has been given a seven-year prison term for the Second World War atrocity and if he survives, may not leave jail until he is 100.
A judge found him guilty of ordering the murders in revenge for an attack on a cinema packed with German soldiers.
Engel, the wartime leader of the elite SS force in the Italian port of Genoa, went on trial in Germany last month.
He was tried in Hamburg because German law prevents its citizens from being extradited for crimes committed abroad.
Other massacres
Engel, who uses a hearing aid and walks with a stick, maintained throughout the trial he was a passive observer and did not supervise the executions.
Although he expressed regret for the massacre, Engel insisted the killings were justified by the rules of war.
He was convicted in his absence by an Italian court in 1999 for killing at least 246 Italian prisoners of war in four separate massacres.
quote:
Originally posted by O'Brian: Were you or anyone you know there?
quote:
Originally posted by Juba: ...I spent a year in Beijing not long after the events in question, and talked to quite a lot of people who were involved...
That was 1991-2
Next!
quote:
Originally posted by Juba:That was 1991-2
Next!
Hmmmm, 1991-2? Tiananmen was in 1989 and most of the students involved had graduated, fled, been arrested or murdered,
Out of curiosity, how does one go about signing up to be a lackey of the Communist Chinese?