German Policy on Arms Sales to China

Post split and edited from former thread. It is proposed that Germany should not support arms sales to the PRC.


It was the Germans that killed the millions of Jews in WWII and it was the Germans what sold Saddam all his chemical, nuclear and missile technology so I say sod the Germans and let’s have a laff at their expense. It’s not like the Germans are going to complain are they? What are they going to say, stop laughing at us and poking fun of our militarism and our militant dogmatism when Schroeder is trying to lift the embargo on weapons sales to China?

The Germans have a historical burden to bear because of their past actions. The shameful actions of Schroeder and Fischer must be examined even more and held to an even greater level of scrutiny and dismissive contempt. Is someone going to argue that Germany and German foreign policy is worthy of praise? Who wants the Germans to get involved with the Chinese to the same degree that they were with Saddam just raise their hands. In the meantime, I am with Gunther Grass. The Germans must learn to ditch the militant adherence to isms. Its like being criticized for pointing to an alcoholic’s past buffoonery with regard to the bottle. Which is sadder, the drunk’s continued wretched and squalid behavior or the person who points it out to him?

The person who continues to point it out to him decades after he took his last drink. Germans are wrong in attempting to have the embargo lifted but that is no excuse to berate them again for something their parents and grandparents did.

Bob:

I respectfully disagree. The Germans have a special need to prove their moral worth. They have failed. Let them pay the price of global opprobrium.

Please show me an opinion poll supporting your claim that “the Germans” want to see the embargo lifted (which, BTW, doesn’t automatically mean that weapons would be sold to China). It’s Schroeder the big opportunist and devoted panda-kisser who wants to show his Chinese friends that he’s trying to get them off the embargo list. He probably read some “how to do business in China”-book and thinks this is about “giving face”. However, even in his own party there is currently no majority for his position. So, unless you can back this up with facts, could we please stop talking about “the Germans” wanting to sell weapons to China?

Stop whining. We have had play regarding all these niceties with regard to terms before. It is clear in the context already given that the Germans here means the German government. And since Germany at least for the time being is a democracy, the people of Germany have spoken, they chose Schroeder and it is up to them to make their voices heard once again if he is doing something that they do not want. So, for me, it will remain “the Germans” but you can continue to point this out ad naseum (that the Germans and the German government are not one and the same). We all understand that in a country not EVERYONE agrees but that is in no way an excuse to absolve the rest for acting or not acting in a certain way. I am not going to preface all my comments with the Germans except the 10 in Hanover and 3 in Hamburg and the fourth in Berlin who disagree with this policy. It is the OFFICIAL policy of the German government. That is what matters.

Let me try this again:

Who / Wants to lift embargo:
Schr

I am just back from Germany and noticed, there is finally public awareness of the wrong China policy on the rise now. Fischer is opposing Schroeder finally, jointly with his green party (the smaller one of the 2 gov. parties) and the conservative opposition. Slowly people start to recognize Germany and France are lying purring at the feet of a gigant called China, who is just starting to exercise his muscles.

A lot of people still think “if a Currywurst explodes in China (or Taiwan) it is not my business”, but press attention will help.

See Fred, Fischer is not so bad
:smiley:

Okay, linking the China-Taiwan-Germany discussion to WWII is a bit strange to me, but I used to say by myself recently: it would be nice if a lesson of WWII for the German people would be NOT to encourage war in other parts of the world (here: supporting China) and choose their allies more carefully.

US is probably a better choice than China :stuck_out_tongue: [my Jungsozialisten-past made me insert the “probably”, Harz Harz]

Okay, maybe I should mention what is really behind this German China-hugging. In short:

a) BinLaden launched his attack on USA based from Afghanistan.
b) BobHonest, Schroeder and the rest of Germany was shocked. As World Trade Center was on my Frank-Sinatra NY-NY record cover. I am not joking here!!
c) Schroeder declared “unlimited solidarity” with USA. A lot of people warned those words are strange, as it could be interpreted as “we follow US in every step”. And- no-one with common sense wants to give such a promise. Not even to good friend like US.
d) After the “attack” (IMO a counter-strike) on Afghanistan (viewpoint shared by most Germans in my impression), Bush decided to go for Iraq, as the bastard Saddam made some fun about 911 on TV (exploding towers as background for his hurray-speech).
e) Germany and France warned, Iraq would turn into a terrorist nest and would fall apart and fall to radicals after an attack and announced not to follow this time.
f) Bush was dissapointed about Schroeder/Germany and launched a bunch of diplomatic attacks on Germany and France

g) Germany now felt threatened by its old friend. In detail:

  • attack plans of US on Netherland inernational court in case of imprisonment of US soldiers or their allies.
    Here, many Europeans thought US has rabies and wants to attack even its own friends.

  • diplomatic measures to devide EU into old and new Europe. Not too successful.

  • Wolwowitz doctrine as follows:

  • every country reaching a comparable millitary capacity as US will be attacked by 1. press-anouncements/publications 2. diplomatic measures and 3. millitary strike.

In those days we felt this was threatening even EU (see the two points before).

Consequently, Schroeder agreed with Chirac to seek a new strategic position for Europe and started China-hugging. Many people supported it as they believed this would be necessary in the present situation.

NOW, Bush is out of his wild youth days as a president and seeks friendship again with Germany. Unfortunately, Schroder is an idiot and still klings to the old dogma of an independant (read: without US as an ally) Europe as a power closer to Russia and China.

BobHonest erased his anger first, as he is John Wayne and Sinatra fan, but the rest of Germany takes a little longer.

Any questions left?

Your assessment is misguided on several levels for the following reasons:

Schroeder was bashing Bush long before the Iraq thing came up. His foreign minister Fischer is a known anti-American. They both played up the anti-American, anti-Bush message in his re-election campaign as well.

The problem with Germany is that it failed to appreciate as it did so well during the Cold War that US troops were what defended it from the Soviet Union. The Persian Gulf and stable oil supplies are now protected by the US. When it came to taking out Saddam, we were pre-emptively removing a threat that had been around for quite some time and one that we believed was given added urgency following 911.

Given that NO German troops would ever be sent to deal with a nuclear equipped Saddam or one with wmds, but plenty of American soldiers would, why does Germany feel that it deserved a say in the leadup to the invasion of Iraq at all.

Now, you explain to me, how Iraq (a nation of level 4 importance to Berlin) is allowed to become an issue that derails Germany’s relationship with its No. 1 security and economic partner. Germany could have abstained. No one asked it to play an active role. It chose to actively oppose the US because it feared Iraq would become a source of terrorism? Bullshit. Why then was Berlin absolutely content to do nothing about Afghanistan for 13 years? Suddenly, the mere possibility of Iraq becoming a terrorist nest is cause to rupture its key relationship for 60 years. If that were the case, why no hysteria over Algeria or Lebanon.

The truth of the matter is that Schroeder and Fischer have long been anti-American and it took something like this to get them out in the open and expose their true tendencies. Given that Germany was the primary source of most of Saddam’s nuclear, chemical and missile technology and equipment, I think we know the real truth. This is about making money and corruption at the highest levels of German government. While this pales in comparison to what goes on as day-to-day business in France, Schroeder and Fischer’s anti-Americanism is what brought this sordid one-night stand with France into a broken marriage with abandoned children and a new house-sharing relationship (though not quite marriage) with the cheap tramp (Paris) that broke up the otherwise solid relationship in the first place.

If you have any doubts about any of this, I will be more than happy to once again supply a nauseating array of reports and statistics on the subject though you may wish to search through past threads on the subject first to spare me and yourself and other readers the agony.

Why don’t our earnest little reporters delve into all of this more? Did anyone KNOW or report on the fact that Germany was Saddam’s No. 1 supplier preGulf War I? Why not? What about Fischer and Schroeder’s anti-Americanism? Why doesn’t this get more coverage? If Bush had ever said the kinds of things about Schroeder that Schroeder and Fischer and others in the German administration had said about Bush, can you imagine the shitstorm? So calling Germany “old Europe” is all you can find to compare in terms of name calling and by merely one US official? That’s it? Anything from Bush, Cheney, Powell on this? I don’t think so.

Final note: Germany and France fucked America over the Iraq issue and have been doing so long before Bush came along. They have been doing so in the UN and other international organizations for quite some time. If there is to be a rebuilding of the relationship, it will have to take a change in mindset in Berlin. No one cares what Paris does. That is immaterial. The onus for improving the relationship lies with Germany, but that will not happen until Schroeder and that contemptible little fuckwit Fischer are out of office. I will celebrate the election in Baden Baden with Champagne the day those two little asswipes are voted out in a landslide victory for the opposition. Count on it.

More moral posturing as usual MT? It would be so nice if you could actually muster something sensible to say about German foreign and strategic policy. Like I said, 2006 come German election time, I wil be sitting either in Baden Baden, Durlach or Wiesbaden with a nice bottle of bubbly watching Schroeder and that contemptible little asswipe Fischer go down in flames. At least, give me credit for not saying down in a cloud of gas. Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss hahaha

MT, that was the best post you had all week.

you wrote:

[quote]
fred smith wrote:[/quote]

keep up the good work!

Huh?

Sorry Fred, but weren’t you agreeing with something along the line of “it does not matter what was done 1,000, 100 or 50 years ago; it matters what is done now” in the “Fear of Muslims …” thread?

So why the change of mind suddenly?

I ask because Schroeders China-policy can be very easily denounced on itself without referring to anyone’s past. For the time being, he does suck up to China and looks silly. The view that it is Fischer opposing him I do not share. To me it looks more like the peacenik part of the Green party feels uncozy about Schroeder’s policy and thus Fischer, recently damaged by the multi-culti-visa-human trafficking-affair at the moment prefers to tag along with his party base rather than antagonize it. He can’t get into the foreign ministry again without Schroeder, but he will get nowhere at all without his Green party-project.

But I liked Bob’s parody about “what is going on behind the scenes.” How all characters in that little story are thinking in terms of “global politics” instead of “what get’s us elected again?” - fiction at its best :bravo:

Yet … that “The Germans have a historical burden to bear because of their past actions.” Tsk, tsk, tsk Fred … :no-no:

You terrible Indian-holocauster/slave-owner/Hitler-appeasing/Stalin-ally/Vietnam-baby-killer/Saddam-suppoter/Taliban-Ally/women-opressor/racist/planet-rapist/third-world-exploiter - person, you. I read on a message board sumwhere Americans are like that and have some historical burden to bear because of their past actions. :wink:

Was probably on forumosa :smiley:

Now, on a serious note again … what compelled you to insert this particular comment? Slip of the tongue? Double-standards? Tiredness? To provide MT with new ammo for the “Fear of Muslims …” thread? Venting? Crave mud-throwing?

Or did I just plain misunderstand you in either thread? (My bet is on that one, if you agree we can split 50:50 :wink: )

:help:

Oops, too late :blush:

Let’s see how he spins it on the “Fear of Muslims” thread. :unamused:

Damn, forumosa’s IP is fast. Is there a minimum of characters per second typed before one may play here?

Hey, now all:

Imagine you are a German. Easy to do:

a) keep most of the things you have but get rid of that automatic gun under your bed, illegal in Germany.

b) Imagine you get all your news from Spiegel and Spiegel.de. Do not tell you about really often about Germany and France selling constantly stuff to 3rd world dictators, but instead: CIA would make money with [drugs? roasting little kits? selling E.T to the Klingons?]

c) Now imagine you have to deal with the early George Bush administration. I found it kind of scary, I admit. He changed now, good.

All I wanted to say is: try to see it from the other angle. Bush’s “early diplomacy” was digusting. But yes, Schroder is probably more anti-american than others and yes, this governement has got to go IMO, as it sacrifices the stragetic partnership with US. Iraq was a tactical issue, not a strategical one.

And yes, I can understand, you guys over the big pool are angry because we Krauts turn a tactical problem into a reason to change our strategic alliance [yes, you do not deserve this treatment].

Schroeder sometimes has good plans [economic reforms/supporting US for 911], but he carries them out in such a horrible way, that in the end good turns into bad.

EDIT: okay, I guess we can remoe the “probably” in the sentence with Schroeder being “more anti-American”.

This is a real gem.

Spiegel.de writes about green politician Antje Vollmer, who announced a “pedophile Iraq conspiracy against the pope” on German TV. Even Spiegel.de is calling this … bullshit.

spiegel.de/kultur/gesellscha … 26,00.html

She said, she is satisfied to see George Bush kneeling in front of the dead pope, as US has forced Polad to become a No.1-occupation force in Iraq to undermine the influence of the pope in his own home country AND US would have attacked the catholic church with propaganda about its pedophilic scandals at the same time.

Her way of expressing herself is not too clear, as she seems to be a confused lady. Seeing her running around in Saudi Arabia with traditional muslim women clothing gave people the impression, she may be kinda nuts.

This is one of the best conspiracy theories I have ever heard.

Fred may be right somewhere about Greens being Anti-American, but I did not know it is a mental disease. And such people work for the German state! That is the end of Germany, good night.

… she is vice president of the Bundestag, the parliament.

You shouldn’t miss her face:

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,316634,00.jpg

[quote=“bob_honest”]You shouldn’t miss her face:
[/quote]

When I read the article yesterday I thought: “Hey, this would be a nice new avatar for bob_honest!”. :laughing: Instead you choose poor prince Ernst-August.

Sorry I missed this.

Huh?

Sorry Fred, but weren’t you agreeing with something along the line of “it does not matter what was done 1,000, 100 or 50 years ago; it matters what is done now” in the “Fear of Muslims …” thread?

Fred: I only like bashing Germans. I admit it is irrational, inconsistent and unfair but there you are. I like bashing the Germans.

So why the change of mind suddenly?

I ask because Schroeders China-policy can be very easily denounced on itself without referring to anyone’s past. For the time being, he does suck up to China and looks silly. The view that it is Fischer opposing him I do not share. To me it looks more like the peacenik part of the Green party feels uncozy about Schroeder’s policy and thus Fischer, recently damaged by the multi-culti-visa-human trafficking-affair at the moment prefers to tag along with his party base rather than antagonize it. He can’t get into the foreign ministry again without Schroeder, but he will get nowhere at all without his Green party-project.

But I liked Bob’s parody about “what is going on behind the scenes.” How all characters in that little story are thinking in terms of “global politics” instead of “what get’s us elected again?” - fiction at its best

Yet … that “The Germans have a historical burden to bear because of their past actions.” Tsk, tsk, tsk Fred …

Fred: I know that I am bad but I just cannot help myself. I don’t believe in collective or historical guilt or responsibility for anyone … except the Germans. haha

You terrible Indian-holocauster/slave-owner/Hitler-appeasing/Stalin-ally/Vietnam-baby-killer/Saddam-suppoter/Taliban-Ally/women-opressor/racist/planet-rapist/third-world-exploiter - person, you. I read on a message board sumwhere Americans are like that and have some historical burden to bear because of their past actions.

Was probably on forumosa

Now, on a serious note again … what compelled you to insert this particular comment? Slip of the tongue? Double-standards? Tiredness? To provide MT with new ammo for the “Fear of Muslims …” thread? Venting? Crave mud-throwing?

Fred: All of the above!

Or did I just plain misunderstand you in either thread? (My bet is on that one, if you agree we can split 50:50 )

Fred okay but I get the bigger share of the 50-50!

a little update. In parliament Bundestag, besides the opposition, only the “speaker for foreign affairs” of ther green party, which is the smaller governement coalition part, spoke clearly against Schroeder’s “drop China weapon embargo” plan. The rest of the governement remained merely silent. Kuhn said clearly, it is a wrong assumption by this governement, China would have opened itself or wuld be moving towards democracy. Fischer kinda made evasive moneuveurs.

Spiegel.de cites today “a parliament member”, Schroeder could lose his majority over this China issue. Spiegel states also, Schroeder would hang on to this issue even if his party would have asked him to “hang it lower”.
The whole parliament besides Schroeder is against the erasure of the sanctions against China.
Can someone give Schroeder a job in the “Commie” party in Bejing please? First row seat in the executions and he will be happy.
Cmdjing, do something, talk to your pals. Pah.

[quote=“fred smith”]Or did I just plain misunderstand you in either thread? (My bet is on that one, if you agree we can split 50:50 )

Fred okay but I get the bigger share of the 50-50![/quote]

Fine, I’ll PM you your share once I figure out how to send images from my pc that way.