German tendency to sidle their past?

I’m from a southern state and we are reminded all the time. The difference is we didn’t set up factories to mass murder entire populations.

Right–factories were more of a Northern thing. We just worked 'em to death on the plantations.

Ah…think you know much about Antebellum Southern economics, do you? :laughing:

Um, no… Was I wrong?

Yep. Think about it. You buy a slave. Very expensive. You have to feed, clothe and provide medical care. If you kill him you’re going to have to buy another. And as I said, they aren’t cheap.

Antebellum black slaves received better medical care, lived in better conditions and had a higher calorie intake per day than the “free” Irish immigrant workers in NYC in 1870.

The main reason the Northern industrialists supported freeing the slaves and the war was two-fold. They destroyed the South’s manufacturing/industrial capability and gained cheaper workers. And didn’t have to provide food, medical care or housing.

Slavery as an institution was quickly dying in the South because it was economically unsound.

I suggest you read some economic studies on the South in general and slavery in particular. Also, read some of the wills of plantation owners between 1840 and 1860. Plantation owners were freeing their slaves in order to ease the financial burden on their children. My families slaves were all freed in about 1843. Most of the former slaves continued living on our plantation as freedmen and several remained our service up through the 1940s.

Here is a photo from about 1932 of my mother’s family and “Aunt” Hattie. she was born in 1862. In the last years of her life, she lived in the main house and my great-grandmother nursed her.

I understood that there was a wide variety in the quality of treatment. What about the “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” situation of being sold “down the river,” i.e. to a more brutal plantation? I can see how this would make good economic sense to the owner, if the slave is either old or difficult to control.

“Uncle Tom’s Cabin” was a work of propaganda. Remember Lincoln’s comment to Harriet Beecher Stowe on meeting her in 1862?

“So you are the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war!”

Troy wrote:


Tell that to the 6 million victims of the concentration camps and their families and their lack of “histories” now that most of their family members are dead. Tell that to the extra 15 to 20 million killed in the war. You get the drill.

Gunther Grass did not have a problem recognizing what was good and what was bad about Germany. His point is that Germans do not face up to their history very honestly. Now, suddenly, the Germans are portraying themselves as “victims” which many were BUT the fact remains that Germany was the aggressor. Germany and its government are therefore ultimately responsible.

The points are only raised when the Germans raise themselves above others. WE have very moralistic (dogmatically and militantly so) Germans who now want to forcefully cram their environmental and peace initiatives down people’s throats. We have Germans who march against the US “tyranny” despite its sterling democratic and human rights credentials but not against the Soviet “people’ paradise.”

No but they can recognize the fact that as they stood by and did nothing to stop Hitler from coming to power, they are also standing by and letting dictators like Saddam act with impunity while they wax morally righteous about being “for peace.”

I don’t see how.

American but all my relatives are Germans, Prussians to be exact and I still have lots of relatives in the country. I know what I am talking about, but I appreciate the fact that you in your well-intentioned political correctness would prefer to pretend that the problem does not exist.

Cleaner than Germany’s.

No, no more so would I expect you to constantly attack the Native Americans for their barbarity and cruelty against both settlers and other Native tribes.

Fair point but when slavery was initiated in the US it was in existence in nearly every area of the world. We following the British were some of the first to outlaw it. We should be recognized for eventually doing the right thing.

Isn’t that what you are doing now?

If British exploitation is what you would call their efforts, then by God, let’s have more of it. What do you say about the failed nations and the requisite “nation-building efforts” except that they curiously mirror British colonialism. Actually pretty enlightened. I wonder how many Indians really regret the unifying effects of British rule when the whole thing came undone in the Independence which precipitated the civil war. I imagine that most are quite happy to have a democracy and rule of law.

If you think that the British should feel shame for what they did, why not do some research into a typical German colony like say oh I don’t know Namibia. Do a google search on it.

That is how I feel about Germany and you seem to be bringing up all the negatives without too much prompting so I guess there is nothing more for me to lose so why not continue to point out the fact that this whole thread was restarted just because I pointed out that Gunther Grass believes that there is still a problem. It was hived off another thread. I did not bring all this up but merely pointed out when someone said Germany was no longer a problem and that the 1930s and 1940s would never be repeated that a famous German disagreed. Why don’t you go back and reread the whole thread?

Perhaps you may take your own advice and refrain from posting on this thread again? Or do you want me to end my posts and leave you with the final word on the subject? Is that the fair and right thing to do? Basically, I should agree with you and do what you want?

[quote]whats done is done and lessons have been learned[/quote].

Have they? Then, why are the Germans marching in the hundreds of thousands against the US but never did so against the Soviets? Why against America but not Saddam? Why against American bullets killing innocent Iraqi civilians but nary a word about the mass graves, the torture chambers, the serial invasions? Why no word about abuses that are widespread throughout the Arab and Muslim world but endless headlines about the “torture” in Abu Ghraib when in fact many Germans have come out to support torture themselves for different matters?

Perhaps not hubris but moral equivalence. When a nation can no longer tell good from bad, right from wrong, you get Hitler. You also get hundreds of thousands marching against the US and for “peace.” Only problem with that peace is that it is not really peace. Millions died while Iraq was “peaceful” from Saddam, his endless wars, his torture and mass murder and through UN and French corruption all while Germany and Germans were either silent or selling him 50 percent of his nuclear, chemical and missile equipment. What was that you were saying again about learning from History? What is the difference did you say between Germany’s actions in the 1930s and 1940s and in recent years? What was that? I cannot hear you.

… um … no invasions this time ?


I know and believe me I did not want to start this again but when I saw the post on another thread, I just wanted to add that Gunther Grass still has his concerns. I certainly did not want to raise this in any way to criticize or challenge Germans like you.

Certainly, there is not doubt that Germany is NOT the nation of the 1930s and 1940s but I do find it worrying that hundreds of thousands of Germans can march against the US but not the Soviet Union and that Germany can sell most of the chemical, nuclear and missile arsenal to Saddam and then protest US actions to get rid of him. I also do not recall any peace marches in Berlin or Hanover when Saddam was killing millions and hundreds of thousands were starving because of UN and French corruption.

Given that the US has killed 30,000, the UN 500,000 and Saddam 3 million. I would expect that the protest against say Saddam would have been 100 times stonger, bigger and more frequent, and nearly 18 times bigger, stronger and more frequent in the case of the UN and France, surely? No? Why not?

nuclear, chemical and biolgoical weapons? are these the weapons that the us govt has now given up on finding since they arent there? … is that silence i hear or your foot in your mouth.

Excited Newbie wrote:

Long-term tired of excited “I just read zmag for the first time” poster reponds:

Check out

It details who sold what to Saddam and when. Most of this is before the first Gulf War. Never said when they sold it. But the fact is that despite his brutal human rights record, Germany sold 50 percent of all Saddam’s nuclear, chemical and missile stuff. Check it out. If you need help finding this (perhaps while removing my foot from your ass) just ask for help. I would be happy to stick my foot in your mouth as well.

Nice try. Better luck next time.

An interesting quote I just found:

Well, there is one thing in Germany’s past they can be proud of.

I still get enjoyment out of reading his exploits :bravo:

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]An interesting quote I just found:[/quote]

Frank made a fortune by collecting the property of other people in Poland. Dead Jews property too of course.

“Im Westen liegt Frankreich”,
“im Osten wird Frank reich”

is what they said as a joke in the Nazi times. Lovely sense of humor :frowning:

Screamin’ Jeasus : As a specialist for German culture, please translate!


YAAAAAAWWWNNN…slamming ze Germans again for the nth time. And, look, he is citing Guenther Grass’ “Crab Walk” again, how lovely. Guenther Grass, who understands the “german mass psyche” oh so well.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, and so am I. I like Grass, I really do, Blechtrommel is a very good book and he deserved his Nobel Prize for that.
But his later books get old, because he knows only one tune, that is Germany under the Hitler regime. Basically all his books are about that single topic. Crab walk was just another installment, like Rocky 4 maybe. And maybe you know that Rocky 4 can’t compare to Rocky 1 in the least.
But who can blame Grass? He has found is niche and is successfully exploiting it. However, it’s getting old when he is just saying the same things over and over again. 40, 30 years ago what he said was valid and important and might have played a big part in changing Germany’s attitudes to its past.
Today he is still whistling that same old tune and are people to blame who are fed up with that self-rightious lamenting of his?

Oh, and please spare us your stories about how well you understand Germany, because “all my ancestors are from Germany, I have been there numerous times yadayadayada”.

Tukyo wrote:

Nobel prizes are important. I think that everyone should get one that way there would be no hate or jealousy in the world. And it is important that we have books about societies which should be written about in books because that would make interesting reading that if interesting enough might win a Nobel prize but everyone should still get one in the interests of fairness.

[quote]But his later books get old, because he knows only one tune, that is Germany under the Hitler regime. Basically all his books are about that single topic. Crab walk was just another installment, like Rocky 4 maybe. And maybe you know that Rocky 4 can’t compare to Rocky 1 in the least.
But who can blame Grass? He has found is niche and is successfully exploiting it. However, it’s getting old when he is just saying the same things over and over again. 40, 30 years ago what he said was valid and important and might have played a big part in changing Germany’s attitudes to its past. [/quote]

Yes, the past is past and then maybe if we look to the future, we can talk about the present because past means over and done with but I saw this movie once about time travel. Do you think that it is possible and if it is should anyone be allowed to go back and change anything because that might mess with the time-reality continuum.

No Lamentations was a different book. See Job.

You have been to my ancestors? How interesting. Was that through the time travel thing or did you read about them in that Nobel prizewinning book? No, there were no Yaddas in my family. At least not that I can recall. Maybe they were the Jewish side of the family but then… they would not really be around any more to discuss this would they?

What is far worse, I must probably go back to Germany now, as my Taiwan company wants to send me there as their representative. Aaaaaaaarg, I guess when I turn on the TV I will hear Wolf Biermann singing again. No more Taiwan Fraeuleins to see, sigh.

Our shop keepers! Ever met them? They treat you like a criminal when you only want to buy something. Their ugly arrogant smile depicting you as a worseless insect when you even dare to ask them something!

If someone wants to reestablish the SS, he can get the whole bunch of shopkeepers into it, will fit perfectly!

My dad at home made an ex-underwear model write emails to me [does that mean she is an overwear model now?] to convince me to come. But noooooooooooooooo…

Sounds like they need a good competitive kick in the backside. How successful have the shopkeepers been in Germany in getting the politicians to hobble the hypermarkets?

One way or the other, I think their day of reckoning is coming. The shopkeepers/politicians can’t keep the forcing low-income consumers to overpay forever. Eventually the Carrefours and Wal-Marts of the world will have enough success that the only way that small shopkeepers can stay in business is by providing friendly, local-knowledge specific service to go along with their goods.

Personally, I’m willing to pay a little more for certain items in exchange for being able to shop at a small local store owned by someone I know and can talk to. Most people feel the same – so the small shops will never disappear. They will just have no choice but to become warmer, friendlier, more efficient, and more welcoming. Your time for revenge will come bob_honest. :wink:

Too bad about the transfer. When do they want you to leave? What are the odds at this point that you’ll go?

And in today’s news from der Vaterland:

German jobless highest since rise of Nazis

By Tony Paterson in Berlin
03 February 2005

German unemployment has hit its highest level since the Nazis came to power, passing the historic six million mark unseen since the days of the Weimar Republic in the 1930s.[/quote] … ory=607260 … 99787.html … 635.htm?1c