Germany seeks 13 over CIA kidnapping

From the AP:

[quote]MUNICH, Germany (CNN) – Arrest warrants have been issued for 13 suspected CIA agents in connection with the alleged kidnapping of a German citizen of Lebanese descent in Afghanistan.

The arrest warrants list charges of kidnapping and severe battery, the Munich state prosecutor’s office said Wednesday.

All the names on the warrants are aliases, but the office told CNN they are believed to be CIA operatives.

Khaled El-Masri said he was kidnapped in late 2003 while on holiday in Macedonia. In an interview with German weekly Die Zeit, he said after having been interrogated in Macedonia for several days, he was flown to Afghanistan where he was held in a secret prison for several months and severely beaten in interrogation sessions.

El-Masri contends he was dumped five months later along the side of a road in Albania without explanation from those who held him.

The 13 suspects are believed to be the crew of the plane that flew El-Masri to Afghanistan, including the two pilots, the Munich state prosecutor told CNN.

German authorities obtained information from the Spanish police and the state prosecutor in Milan, Italy – which eventually led to the arrest warrants being filed.

The chances of the suspects actually standing trial in Germany are slim as German arrest warrants are not binding in the United States.

If, however, any of the suspects should enter a European country, they would be arrested immediately, the Munich state prosecutor’s office said.

In his interview with Die Zeit, El-Masri said he tried to travel to the United States to file a lawsuit there but was not allowed to enter the country.

The case has also led to a German parliamentary investigation into when the government under German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder was informed about the kidnapping.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other U.S. officials have declined to comment on the case.

However, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said the United States has acknowledged making a mistake with El-Masri, The Associated Press reported.

In a separate case, Italian authorities are seeking the arrest of 26 Americans, all but one believed to be CIA agents, over the 2003 kidnapping in Milan of Egyptian cleric and terror suspect Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr. [/quote] … rmany.cia/

The US needs to stop deluding itself that sending people to countries where torture is legal to be tortured is not the same thing as carrying out the torture itself.

The report of it on BBC said that he was released because the US realized they had the wrong man.

There needs to be some kind of oversight, done in a quick and timely manner to ensure that these kind of mistakes don’t happen. It’s not the first time something like this has happened, and I’m sure it won’t be the last.

And in the meantime, the guy has lost 5 months of his life and suffered whatever physical trauma was associated with his capture/imprisonment, and more than likely continuing psychological trauma.

The Italians are going after CIA operatives for the kidnapping of another suspect, see Former Italian spy chief opposes CIA trial and Italian magistrates seize ex-CIA man’s Milan villa

Yeah the article I posted said that too. And what did they do when they figured out they’d gotten the wrong guy? They dumped him in the hills of a war torn country. “Sorry about all that pal. Nasty business with the torture and what not. Hope you can find a source of water out here. Have fun, and remember, God loves America!”

The Nazis…sorry…the Germans can go piss up a rope. They still shelter Nazi war criminals wanted in Italy and the Netherlands. I love how the Germans always get so “holier than thou” whenever the US is mentioned.

And in today’s art news:

[quote]A portrait of Adolf Hitler’s foreign minister will remain hanging in the German embassy in London, the Berlin government has insisted.

It is defying calls to take down the picture, seen by critics to be “honouring a Nazi”.[/quote] … wger01.xml

I seem to remember an American official found in the trunk of a car in Italy some years back.
Dead at the hands of terrorists.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I seem to remember an American official found in the trunk of a car in Italy some years back.
Dead at the hands of terrorists.[/quote]

Interesting. I hope you care to elaborate:

  1. Do you believe that the poor german had the same rights to a fair treatment as the American official had?
  2. Do you consider the kidnapping of the German and the American official an equal crime?
  3. Do you see any difference in torture when done by friends of the US and when it’s done by terrorists?

[quote=“Mr He”]Interesting. I hope you care to elaborate:

  1. Do you believe that the poor german had the same rights to a fair treatment as the American official had?
  2. Do you consider the kidnapping of the German and the American official an equal crime?
  3. Do you see any difference in torture when done by friends of the US and when it’s done by terrorists?[/quote]Mr. He -
    Fair questions. I’ll give ‘off the cuff general answers’ at this point as I have not had a chance to read anything in depth about this particular incident.

#1 - The American I mentioned was kidnapped, tortured and shot. He was chosen by the terrs because he was an American and seen coming and going from the Embassy building. That was their exact reason given when they were later arrested.
At this point I do not know exactly what -
a) really happened to this Lebanese-German person
b) why he was singled out and ‘abducted’
c) what he was doing in Macedonia
d) who he was involved with and what his previous activities were

#2 - No. The Lebanese-German is alive. Also, I would speculate at this point that the Lebanese-German was engaged in some activity that caused him to be considered a ‘person of interest’ for what ever reason.

#3 - I am on record previously here as not in favor of torture. I believe it is counter-productive and ultimately does more harm, both to the object person and to the person doing the torture, than good.
You tell me - Why do terrorists torture? I think the answer to that may be illustrative of the difference in motives. I am not trying to justify torture - just showing that the reasons for its use can be vastly different.

At first glance, this appears to be a miscarriage of agreed upon international standards of conduct. I do not think this is as clear cut as it may appear.
We will see as more information comes out…if it does.

Now the question is - Who has agreed to abide by those standards and in what situations can they be waived? If any.

Regarding the poor fellow who ended up dumped on a road in Albania, his story is here:

He’s suing left and right rurrently, as i would if I were in his shoes.

TC - I do agree that torture is something which should be avoided at all costs.

Terrorists torture in order to instill terror, whereas governments, and in this case a US proxy torturs in order to obtain information.

But honestly, I could not care less about the reasons, no person should be subjected to torture in any way, shape or form. Also, basic rights should be extended to terrorists suspects, no matter where they were picked up.

Do you believe that the purpose of the torture has any bearing on the justification for it?

Doctor Evil, isn’t there some internet law to the effect that whoever is the first to introduce Hitler and the Nazis into an argument, loses?

Personally, I think Hitler was just another nationalist, similar to Serbia’s Milosovic. People get all worked up about “war crimes” but at the end of the day, we’re all just animals, and this is how nature works. (Not so well for Germany, but that’s another story.) There is no such thing as right or wrong, only blood–or as we would say today, genes.

Not exactly, but there is Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies:

Look at me. Do you think I really give a rats ass about some “internet law”??? :unamused:

Bringing Nazi’s up in this discussion is cheap.

Also, those who actually bothered reading The Daily Torygraph piece Doctor Evil was linking to, would know that the debate in the German foreign ministry was whether to take the picture of the former Weimar republic Ambassador down, or leave it there along with a plaque explaining his evil deeds.

Always read your sources properly, before linking to them. Always.

The US of course would just shot any Nazi at sight. Ups, not so true afterall:

Project Paperclip: Dark side of the Moon

By Andrew Walker
BBC News

Sixty years ago the US hired Nazi scientists to lead pioneering projects, such as the race to conquer space. These men provided the US with cutting-edge technology which still leads the way today, but at a cost.[/b][/quote]

And then of course the obvious difference between what is said and what is done (from the same article):

[quote]There was, though, one major problem. Truman had expressly ordered that anyone found “to have been a member of the Nazi party and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazism militarism” would be excluded.

Under this criterion even von Braun himself, the man who masterminded the Moon shots, would have been ineligible to serve the US. A member of numerous Nazi organisations, he also held rank in the SS. His initial intelligence file described him as “a security risk”.[/quote]

Not to mention that there are many Nazi parties in the US, (Neo-)Nazis running their websites on US servers etc.

Proud to be an American, eh?

[quote]Not to mention that there are many Nazi parties in the US, (Neo-)Nazis running their websites on US servers etc.

Proud to be an American, eh?[/quote]

Not sure how one has to do with the other?

Very Proud to be an American…do you have a problem with that? Its your problem, not mine.

Its ancient knowledge that the US brought in former German military scientists to help, and in many cases, create US efforts in the ‘space race.’ Where do people think Dr. Werner von Braun was from?..Finland?
Big deal. They were scientists. There’s a town in Tennessee named Oak Ridge. Very famous for its nuclear research. Also very famous for having some of the most beautiful and well kept woodlands and hiking trails in the Appalachian Mountains. It seems the Germans who were settled there, after WWII, liked to bring their traditions with them. Fol-da-ree…Fol-da-Raaaa…

I used to eat in a restaurant in San Francisco, the owner of which her husband was a top architect for the German govt during WWII. He said he spent the war building highways leading to Turkey. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. His wife ran a good food joint.

As for labeling these US groups “Nazis”, the correct term is NEO-Nazis. That little bit of nastiness is also an import with a European heritage.

BMW’s are built in the USA. As were Volkswagens. Big deal…time goes on.

I think that Rascal was mentioning that he was tired of seeing the German Bundesrepublik smeared with the N word every time not falling in line with US policies.

I can agree with that.
I do not have to agree with the smearing that he engages in.

I am busy today and will try to look into the kidnap thing as time allows.

Short answer on the Q you posed -

If a captured enemy terrorist is proven to have timely information regarding a bomb that is planned to explode or an action that would take lives, and this information is being withheld - - Red is positive and Black is negative.

Not to mention that there are many Nazi parties in the US, (Neo-)Nazis running their websites on US servers etc.[/quote]

Yes. And Germany has them arrested when they visit Europe and then sent to German prisons. Read up on the case of Gary Lauck.

Damn right I am. We have freedom of speech. Something your country might do well to emulate. And we kicked your sorry Nazi asses.

Honestly, if we are looking at degrees of fair treatment, I would claim that “extraordinary rendition” is a fair bit worse than facing due process of law in a German court. At least the Germans put you in front of an impartial judge before seending your arse to jail. CIA just puts you on a plane with the next destination being an Egyptian torture chamber.

I believe in freedom of speech, however I can understand that the Germans are a bit careful when it comes to nazi parties, after all they were a nazi country for 12 years in the niddle of the 20th century, and have had to struggle with the fallout ever since.