Get others to help out in Iraq

Here’s more to Dangermouse about the status of his nation’s military and for that of the rest of Europe as well. Good reading. Hope you enjoy…

[quote]Houses of Straw
The EU’s delusions about the sufficiency of “soft” power are embarrassingly revealed.

By Victor Davis Hanson

‘It’s completely outrageous for any nation to go out and arrest the servicemen of another nation in waters that don’t belong to them.” So spoke Admiral Sir Alan West, former First Sea Lord of the Royal Navy, concerning the present Anglo-Iranian crisis over captured British soldiers. But if the attack was “outrageous,” it was apparently not quite outrageous enough for anything to have been done about it yet. Sir Alan elaborated on British rules of engagement by stressing they are “very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting … Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away.”

One might suggest, not necessarily “sinking everything in sight,” but at least shooting back at a few of the people trying to kidnap Britain’s uniformed soldiers. But the view, apparently, is that stepping back and allowing some chaps to be “captured and taken away” is to be preferred to “roaring into action and sinking everything in sight.” The latter is more or less what Nelson did at the battle of the Nile, when he nearly destroyed the Napoleonic fleet.

The attack coincides roughly with Iran’s announcement that it will end its cooperation with U.N. non-proliferation efforts. That announcement was in reaction to a unanimous vote to begin embargoing some trade with Teheran of critical nuclear-related substances. With that move, Ahmadinejad is essentially notifying the world that Iran will go ahead and get the bomb — and let no one dare try to stop them. If a non-nuclear Iran kidnaps foreign nationals in international waters, we can imagine what a nuclear theocracy will do. The Iranian thugocracy rightly understands that NATO will not declare the seizure of a member’s personnel an affront to the entire alliance.

Nor will the European Union send its “rapid” defense forces to insist on a return of the hostages. There is simply too much global worry about the price and availability of oil, too much regional concern over stability after Iraq, and too much national anxiety over the cost in lives and treasure that a possible confrontation would bring. Confrontation can be avoided through capitulation, and no Western nation is willing to insist that Iran adhere to any norms of behavior. Yet the problem is not so much a postfacto “What to do?” as it is a question of why such events happened in serial fashion in the first place.

The paradox now is that, just as no European nation wishes to be seen in solidarity with the United States, so too no European force wishes to venture beyond its borders without acting in concert with the American military, whether on the ground under American air cover or at seas with a U.S. carrier group. There are reasons along more existential lines for why Iran acts so boldly. After the end of the Cold War, most Western nations — i.e., Europe and Canada — cut their military forces to such an extent that they were essentially disarmed. The new faith was that, after a horrific twentieth century, Europeans and the West in general had finally evolved beyond the need for war.

With the demise of fascism, Nazism, and Soviet Communism, and in the new luxury of peace, the West found itself a collective desire to save money that could be better spent on entitlements, to create some distance from the United States, and to enhance international talking clubs in which mellifluent Europeans might outpoint less sophisticated others. And so three post-Cold War myths arose justify these. First, that the past carnage had been due to misunderstanding rather than the failure of military preparedness to deter evil. Second, that the foundations of the new house of European straw would be “soft” power. Economic leverage and political hectoring would deter mixed-up or misunderstood nations or groups from using violence. Multilateral institutions — the World Court or the United Nations — might soon make aircraft carriers and tanks superfluous.

All this was predicated on dealing with logical nations — not those countries so wretched as to have nothing left to lose, or so spiteful as to be willing to lose much in order to hurt others a little, or so crazy as to welcome the “end of days.” This has proved an unwarranted assumption. And with the Middle East flush with petrodollars, non-European militaries have bought better and more plentiful weaponry than that which is possessed by the very Western nations that invented and produced those weapons. Third, that in the 21st century there would be no serious enemies on the world stage. Any violence that would break out would probably be due instead to either American or Israeli imperial, preemptive aggression — and both nations could be ostracized or humiliated by European shunning and moral censure. The more Europeans could appear to the world as demonizing, even restraining, Washington and Tel Aviv, the more credibility abroad would accrue to their notion of multilateral diplomacy.

But even the European Union could not quite change human nature, and thus could not outlaw the entirely human business of war. There were older laws at play — laws so much more deeply rooted than the latest generation’s faddish notions of conflict resolution. Like Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance, which would work only against the liberal British, and never against a Hitler or a Stalin, so too the Europeans’ moral posturing seemed to affect only the Americans, who singularly valued the respect of such civilized moralists. Now we are in the seventh year of a new century, and even after the wake-up call on 9/11, Westerners are still relearning each day that the world is a dangerous place. When violence comes to downtown Madrid, the well-meaning Spanish chose to pull out of Iraq — only to uncover more serial terrorist cells intent on killing more Spaniards.

To get their captured journalists freed, Italians paid Islamists bribes — and then found more Italians captured. When Germany, Britain, and France parleyed with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (the “direct talks” that we in the states yearn for) to try to get Iran to cease its plans for nuclear proliferation, he politely ignored the “EU3.” The European Union is upset that Russian agents murder troublemakers inside the EU’s borders, and so registers its displeasure with the Cheshire Vladimir Putin. The latest Iranian kidnapping of British sailors came after British promises to leave Iraq, and after the British humiliation of 2004, when eight hostages were begged back. Apparently the Iranians have figured either that London would do little if they captured more British subjects or that the navy of Lord Nelson and Admiral Jellico couldn’t stop them if it wanted to.

“London,” of course, is a misnomer, since the Blair government is an accurate reflection of attitudes widely held in both Britain and Europe. These attitudes have already been voiced by the public: this is understandable payback for the arrest of Iranian agents inside Iraq; this is what happens when you ally with the United States; this is what happens when the United States ceases talking with Iran.
[color=red]The rationalizations are limitless, but essential, since no one in Europe — again, understandably — wishes a confrontation that might require a cessation of lucrative trade with Iran, or an embarrassing military engagement without sufficient assets, or any overt allegiance with the United States. Pundits talk of a military option, but there really is none, since neither Britain nor Europe at large possesses a military.[/color]

What does the future hold if Europe does not rearm and make it clear that attacks on Europeans and threats to the current globalized order have repercussions? If Europeans recoil from a few Taliban hoodlums or Iranian jihadists, new mega-powers like nuclear India and China will simply ignore European protestations as the ankle-biting of tired moralists. Indeed, they do so already.
Why put European ships or planes outside of European territorial waters when that will only guarantee a crisis in which Europeans are kidnapped and held as hostages or used as bargaining chips to force political concessions? Europe is just one major terrorist operation away from a disgrace that will not merely discredit the EU, but will do so to such a degree as to endanger its citizenry and interests worldwide and their very safety at home. Islamists must assume that an attack on a European icon — Big Ben, the Vatican, or the Eiffel Tower — could be pulled off with relative impunity and ipso facto shatter European confidence and influence. Each day that the Iranians renege on their promises to release the hostages, and then proceed to parade their captives, earning another “unacceptable” from embarrassed British officials, a little bit more of the prestige of the United Kingdom is chipped away.

In the future, smaller nations in dangerous neighborhoods must accept that in their crises ahead, their only salvation, even after the acrimonious Democratic furor over Iraq, is help from the United States. America alone can guarantee the safety of the noble Kurds, should Turkey or Iran choose one day to invade. America alone will be willing or able to supply Israel with necessary help and weapons to ensure its survival. Other small nations — a Greece, for example — with long records of vehement anti-Americanism should take note that the choice facing them in their rough neighborhoods is essentially solidarity with the United States or the embrace of Jimmy Carter diplomacy or Stanley Baldwin appeasement. Quite simply, there is now no NATO, no EU, no U.N. that can or will do anything in anyone’s hour of need. [/quote]

article.nationalreview.com/print … I1NjViYzU=

We are not going to remove every dictator. Saddam was removed because of his country’s geostrategic significance. I have stated this all along. Funny that the left seems to be against removing Saddam precisely because there were valid reasons other than those that were strictly humanitarian. Just because there were geostrategic issues that make economic and military sense, does that mean the effort must automatically be condemned?[/quote]
Economic sense = Where the oil is.
Military Sense = ?

Why does the US need to have a military presence in Iraq strategically? Isn’t that what Aircraft Carriers are for?

I am going to assume that you have a genuine sincerity in discussing this issue.

Yes, where the oil is. The US wants to guarantee a steady and safe supply to the world. The world’s economy depends greatly on oil. Since only 16 percent of our oil comes from the Middle East, this will be mostly to guarantee supplies to our allies in the Far East, increasingly India, and also Europe.

It also means removing the source of that incredible wealth from the hands of a man like Saddam, who always presented a threat to the Gulf and to our allies there. It also meant perhaps delivering this wealth over to the Iraqi people more directly while encouraging positive developments there which in turn might lead to positive changes elsewhere in the Middle East. It also meant cutting off a major source of funding for radical groups and terrorists. It also meant a preventive action to ensure that this highly unreliable leader would not turn wmds over to terrorist groups. There was a real fear that this might happen.

[quote]Military Sense = ?

Why does the US need to have a military presence in Iraq strategically? Isn’t that what Aircraft Carriers are for?[/quote]

Carriers are useful for intimidation and for strikes. These were increasingly ineffective against Saddam and his regime. Sometimes you have to roll up the sleeves and well get your arms dirty. Saddam is now gone. We have not delivered stability. But there is hope that things will be better. With bases in Iraq, we are much more capable of taking action throughout the region. Saudi Arabia one way or the other was going to ask us to get our troops our of their nation. Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar are not sufficient for an active deterrent as Saddam presented. Our troops have now been removed from Saudia Arabia (a major issue) and are now stuck or placed in strategically forward positions (or they can be easily) to deal with threats in Iran and Syria. I would really like to see us move against Syria to take out that one threat so we can more fully concentrate on Iran. Lebanon would benefit without Syrian machinations as would the Palestinians on the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip. Then, we may have more ability to control events not only in Iraq but also move forward to put more pressure (not necessarily an invasion) on Iran. We must move quickly. When Pakistan becomes a problem, we will need our troops freed up for action there. They cannot be bogged down in Iraq, Syria, or elsewhere. This is the true threat that we must be prepared to deal with. We must hurry to take out these other threats before the really truly dangerous one emerges.

Unfortunately though even the best laid plans go awry because now Iraq’s oil reserves have become a defacto part of a Shiite Islamist crescent spanning Iran and Iraq and the primary source of funding for terrorism and insurgency in the Middle East is black market Iraqi oil.

Drat!

I disagree that this is or will happen Spookster. Anyway, we knew that Saddam was bad, very bad. We still have time and an opportunity with this Shia regime and I disagree with the view that it will automatically kow tow to the regime in Teheran. But in the meantime, why not let a few punches head Syria’s way? What do we have to lose? The cooperation of the Assad government? instability in Iraq? stopping an alliance with Iran? greater funding for terrorists in Palestine and Lebanon? I mean come on now. What’s the point in holding back?

And that’s the only PR mishap you can name?

Go figure you ‘expert’. :sunglasses:

I dunno. Armageddon? Global economic meltdown?

[quote]And that’s the only PR mishap you can name?

Go figure you ‘expert’. [/quote]

You are right. Our inability to find wmds was not the only PR disaster. I would also point to the German sales of most of his chemical, nuclear and missile technology and equipment, France and Russia and China’s arming of Saddam, the lucrative but not very good “for the people” oil contracts signed by Russian and French companies to exploit oil resources (but we never heard about those countries “stealing” oil then did we?" and of course the granddaddy of all PR “mishaps” the UN Oil for Food program which involved $69 billion in unmonitored corruption that extended to many levels of that world body. In the meantime, the 500,000 to 1 million Iraqis who died due to lack of sufficient medical equipment and food of course while Saddam was building palaces of course is not the problem or something worth discussing because the UN states that it is about Peace while clearly the US effort to remove what everyone agrees was one of the world’s absolute world dictators must be condemned since it involves war and that is bad.

[quote=“fred smith”][quote]And that’s the only PR mishap you can name?

Go figure you ‘expert’. [/quote]

You are right. Our inability to find wmds was not the only PR disaster. I would also point to the German sales of most of his chemical, nuclear and missile technology and equipment, France and Russia and China’s arming of Saddam, the lucrative but not very good “for the people” oil contracts signed by Russian and French companies to exploit oil resources (but we never heard about those countries “stealing” oil then did we?" and of course the granddaddy of all PR “mishaps” the UN Oil for Food program which involved $69 billion in unmonitored corruption that extended to many levels of that world body. In the meantime, the 500,000 to 1 million Iraqis who died due to lack of sufficient medical equipment and food of course while Saddam was building palaces of course is not the problem or something worth discussing because the UN states that it is about Peace while clearly the US effort to remove what everyone agrees was one of the world’s absolute world dictators must be condemned since it involves war and that is bad.[/quote]

See Fred? Again the same-old, lame-old attempt to distract from U.S. PR failures by listing the above. Marketing 101 already tells that the last one should do are lame attempts to deride the competition. It infers that you have nothing good to tell about your own product.

What you have shown is that you are able (or at least attempt) to make Germany/France/Russia/the UN/you-name-it look bad. What you again failed to do is make the US look good.

And there goes your “understanding” about the PR dimension of this PR war. The above was the best you can do in that regard? Ever wondered why everyone but the U.S. gets away with murder these days including finger pointing at the US? Or still clueless?

Furthermore … anything to say about “six days, six weeks, I doubt six months” or “mission accomplished” and the waning support by the U.S. public today? I mean besides just another rerun of semantics and “kept my fingers crossed all the time, meant another mission than you - hahaha”.

One word about these mishaps would have shown you actually are aware of what went wrong with the Bush administration’s PR effort back home right from the start.

Sure Fred … you are really doing your share on the PR front. As if, as if … :unamused:

Good luck again with your 60 year plan comrade. With PR like that, you will need it.

One can already see the benefits of the American occupation, just by viewing the photo below. They have helped homes become more ventilated through puncturing the structures with bullet holes and have improved the privacy of these homes with better security measures to keep intruders out. Notice how the lovely shade of tarp green complements the cool metallic tones of the barbed wire.

Who says Iraq is a quagmire?

Pish posh, says I… pish posh.

The bigger question is, when are Babs and Jen Bush going to fulfill their patriotic duty?

And the same old effort by you to pretend to be outraged by these matters when your nation was guilty of far worse. And since your nation is not officially involved, what’s it to you? Obviously, the deaths of 500,000 to 1 million under the Oil for Food program were not sufficient to spark your feverish Internet postings, nor were the 500,000 deaths from Saddam’s goons, nor were the 2 million deaths in his various wars. So what is it about the 65,000 dead in the past four years that are so worthy of your moral ire?

I am fully committed to this effort. I believe that the removal of Saddam was a very good thing. I also believe that the removal of the threat he posed to the Gulf states was a very good thing. I also believe that Iraq now has a chance at a more pluralistic government. I believe that is a good thing. I also believe that we must make continued efforts to treat this as a regional war because those players have made Iraq their battlefield. That is not a good thing.

Well, when one looks at ALL those deaths and ALL that destruction and ALL those sales of nuclear, chemical and missile technology by those nations involving ALL that corruption, one merely struggles to understand why the US and its efforts in Iraq being the least of these by far is worthy of so much condemnation while you remain silent about these past events. What gives? haha

Oh no. I understand what motivates you and others to criticize the US. When I answer your “complaints,” I am not merely attempting to address your views and thoughts on the matter only. I fully understand that you are hardened in your convictions and will never change them. But I do not want to let those views stand unchallenged lest others reading these posts think that you have made a valid point. Where are your morals man? Oh I forgot, having them somehow equates to a foolish White Man’s Burden or Five-year Communist Plan.

Well, you can laugh all you want but I assure you that Merkel and the new German administration fully understands the dangers involved. When and if this boils over, those missiles will reach your cities not ours, but no doubt that, too, will be because of Bush?

I think that you should read Gunther Grass’s hilarious take off on the German “moral conviction” to understand why so many Germans (and even Americans) are against the effort in Iraq.

As if it mattered? Maybe it does not to you, but it does to me. I just have to laugh at the squealing that goes on over inaction in Darfur while the same groups march to condemn the effort in Iraq. Makes you kind of wonder whether any of these people has a clue as to what moral objectivity would involve…

A Democrat President, in my view, would actually be a good thing in 2009. To proceed, we need the other side of the fence committed. Having a Democrat President and Democrat Congress in 2009 would, in my opinion, pull the Democrats right. Better than having all of the above as Republican and pulled to the left. Anyway, I remain highly confident about Iraq. God knows, it was confidence and optimism like that which resulted in the German people finally attaining a veneer of civilization. You should congratulate us on our efforts to deal with the barbarian Huns. Now, aren’t you the best of Europeans? The most dialogue-friendly of nations? The most concerned with International Law? Wasn’t always that way and if you are that way today, a large part of the credit has to go to the Americans, even those beer-swilling blue-collar Nascar-watching, truck-driving, tobacco-spitting rubes. Must be difficult for the land of Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert and Kant to accept? hahahahahahahahahaah

I remain confident that American policy will continue to try to drive the square peg of ideology into the round hole of reality until the entire Middle East is one great smoking ruins.

Excellent Spook. So we are in agreement then…

:sunglasses:

Excellent Spook. So we are in agreement then…

:sunglasses:[/quote]

We’re in agreement that you’re at your best when you drop the pretenses and shamelessy flaunt your amoralism. That’s what makes you a giant among your pygmylian fellow neoconservatives with their sterile, selective ‘humanitarianism.’

Who is talking about morals here? Except you of course again to distract from how unsound this operation in Iraq was run. Same old lame old hippy talk … “it is a silly pipedream but it sounds all so lovely cozy moral.”

And who is talking about 65,000 dead over the past four years? How about focussing on the 3,000+ U.S. personel dead (plus money burned) over that timespan? Because it could be that it is those who do matter to Joe and Bertha in L.A. when it comes to see this issue thru.

Joa and Bertha seem to be pretty used to, accustomed and unfazed by news from 3rd world countries telling them how many locals there die of whatever conflict, dictator, civil or religious war they decide to have. Some care, some whine, some donate … and even half of that is just a measure to feel better about oneself. If that. Be “outraged” a week, realize impact on personal affairs is minimal though, move on with life … wash, rinse, repeat.

Things seem to look a lot more different though when it suddenly is U.S. personel making up the death toll numbers. Feel free though to go ahead and deride this distinction if you like. Or ignore it completely … question remains though what your cheerleading here is worth as long as you do so?

After all that talk of “mission accomplished” and “six days, six weeks I doubt six months” and “insurgents in their last throes” (all no PR blunders according to you if I recall right) it comes to no surprise to me that Joe and Bertha are disappointed that four years into this war they still have to put up with news of U.S. personel blown up on a daily basis as well as still money being poured into this social science pet project of yours.

This all does not sound like “mission accomplished” or “six days, six weeks, doubt six months” or “insuregency in its last throes”. And it is this disparity of aspiration and results which discredites the leadership who launched this mission. And without trust in leadership who is surprised about waning support? And with insufficient support this mission has as much chance to succeed as the Vietnam War had. Once the talk of “the Vietnam war is practically won” had taken roots the bar to discredit the U.S. government had been lowered to a level where the NV only had to impale themselves during the Tet Offensive. Failed to dislodge the US Army? Does not matter, succeeded in showing that the war in Vietnam was not over yet. And thus discredit whoever claimed it was.

How clever of Cheney to mouth off with “the insurgents are in their last throes”. :wanker:

No PR failure in your book though Fred, right?

It seems to me Joa and Berta give a shit about that. They probably do not even bother if what you tell there is a mere allegation or has any truth to it. Seems they are a lot more riled up about and focussed on “I doubt six months” and by 2007 there is still news of insurgents, i.e. of how their own government oversold them this war. You hope to change that with telling “Germany sold Iraq this and that”? Good luck comrade … you will need it.

You may now of course again post a retort about morals. And you of course may also whine again about the lack of morals of all the Joes and Bertas in L.A. withdrawing support for this war. And that they care more if their own government delivers as promised rather than what Germany does and sells. Or how exactly various Iraqi groups prefer to kill each other for that matter.

And there go your morals … hot air backed up by nothing of substance. No due diligence, not taking into account the dispositions of Joe, Bertha, no check what is in the cards, no feasibility study, nothing. Just hot air about morals and “what would be nice”. Same as with your average 68er hippy / commie lover. Confronted with questions how this is all supposed to work all one got was tralalala how nice and especially moral it were if it did. Anything more to be expected from you Fred? Hardly so, correct?

Don’t get me wrong … morals are all fine and well as long as just personal grandstanding is involved. A war though may require a bit more support than that though. A decent PR effort would have been a nice thing to start with.

Any idea you have to offer regarding the PR dimension though? Or at least a pipedream how to see your pet project Iraq 2063 see thru without public support? Or do you at least have a backup Joa and Bertha in your closet? Joe and Bertha 2.0 or android versions or clones or holograms of them or something like that?

Matrix 4 - Agent Smith reloaded (moral updates and U.S. population patch included)

Alternatively we may also of course head over to Cinema 2: “Saving Private Smith” and you rerun again how it all worked out after WWII and thus will in Iraq too. I assure you - as long as you include a happy end you can be very lenient with things like a stringent plot, plausibility and realism. In Hollywood that is …

Ooops … too late.

Yes Fred sure. You got it all figured out. Iraq is just like WWII. Including the Werewolves, the Red Skull and Captain America.

Now go and sell it to the American public.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070409/ap_ … _s_account

Although Allawi, a cousin of Ayad Allawi, Iraq’s prime minister in 2004, is a member of a secularist Shiite Muslim political grouping, his well-researched book betrays little partisanship.

[quote]
On U.S. reconstruction failures — in electricity, health care and other areas documented by Washington’s own auditors — Allawi writes that the Americans’ “insipid retelling of `success’ stories” merely hid “the huge black hole that lay underneath.”

For their part, U.S. officials have often largely blamed Iraq’s explosive violence for the failures of reconstruction and poor governance.

The author has been instrumental since 2005 in publicizing extensive corruption within Iraq’s “new order,” including an $800-million Defense Ministry scandal. Under Saddam, he writes, the secret police kept would-be plunderers in check better than the U.S. occupiers have done.

As 2007 began, Allawi concludes, “America’s only allies in Iraq were those who sought to manipulate the great power to their narrow advantage. It might have been otherwise.”[/quote]

Games:

Blah blah blah… Yes, I am a hippy. Joe and Bertha are my parents, etc. etc. etc. You have it all figured out… I completely agree with everything that you have said. I am not really a Republican but secretly a Communist and there is no difference etc. etc. etc.

Jack Burton:

Probably some oversell of success, but merely to counter the total media gloom and doom stories often without substantiation, the hype over Abu Ghraib etc. Do you think that the media has been totally unbiased in this war? sticking to the facts? Shall we hold the media to the same standard that has given you cause for comment on the US PR effort?

[quote=“fred smith”]
Jack Burton:

Probably some oversell of success, but merely to counter the total media gloom and doom stories often without substantiation, the hype over Abu Ghraib etc. Do you think that the media has been totally unbiased in this war? sticking to the facts? Shall we hold the media to the same standard that has given you cause for comment on the US PR effort?[/quote]

Check out your local dictionary and look up the word relevance. You should try it some time. Seriously, you must be getting senile.

Just what the hell does the media have to do with Allawi’s assessment of blundering, micromanagement, poor oversight of funds, strategic & planning errors, etc.

Is Bremer’s assessment to recall the Iraqi military (or a portion) somehow a media trick? what does that have to do with PR?

I’m fast falling asleep from your utter nonsense.

Zzzz.

Probably…

Nothing. You are so right. I see the light now. Oh Allawi was the one who was replaced as Iraq’s leader in the subsequent election and ergo America and Americans are therefore supremely incompetent? haha I am laughing but only because I am senile.

Yeah. Totally. Radical. Killer. Bitching. Bummer. Dude. Um. The Iraqi army was about 80 percent Shia. The officer corps was about 100 percent Sunni. The Kurds and Shias deserted during the American-led invasion. When you say recall? I assume that you mean, disband? But then, I am just senile so forgive me my rabid ramblings… Given the history of Sunni domination in Iraq and given the direct statements of the Shia and Kurds that they would not allow a Sunni military to reconstitute itself as a direct threat to the new government, please again explain to me the unwise decision of Bremer’s to officially disband an organization that was 80 to 90 percent gone already and how putting the same Sunni officer corps who had supported Saddam and oppressed the Kurds and Shias was going to fly? with the newly constituted government? But whoops there I go again getting all senile. And with little pearls of wisdom such as you have swallowed whole from media reports, you were saying what again about the relevance of my pointing to the media’s dogged anti-Bush and anti-invasion reporting? Sorry? What? Senile? Oh yes.

[quote]I’m fast falling asleep from your utter nonsense.

Zzzz.[/quote]

Maybe the nurse gave you another shot of thorazine. Pleasant dreams.

Probably…

Nothing. You are so right. I see the light now. Oh Allawi was the one who was replaced as Iraq’s leader in the subsequent election and ergo America and Americans are therefore supremely incompetent? haha I am laughing but only because I am senile.

Yeah. Totally. Radical. Killer. Bitching. Bummer. Dude. Um. The Iraqi army was about 80 percent Shia. The officer corps was about 100 percent Sunni. The Kurds and Shias deserted during the American-led invasion. When you say recall? I assume that you mean, disband? But then, I am just senile so forgive me my rabid ramblings… Given the history of Sunni domination in Iraq and given the direct statements of the Shia and Kurds that they would not allow a Sunni military to reconstitute itself as a direct threat to the new government, please again explain to me the unwise decision of Bremer’s to officially disband an organization that was 80 to 90 percent gone already and how putting the same Sunni officer corps who had supported Saddam and oppressed the Kurds and Shias was going to fly? with the newly constituted government? But whoops there I go again getting all senile. And with little pearls of wisdom such as you have swallowed whole from media reports, you were saying what again about the relevance of my pointing to the media’s dogged anti-Bush and anti-invasion reporting? Sorry? What? Senile? Oh yes.

[quote]I’m fast falling asleep from your utter nonsense.

Zzzz.[/quote]

Maybe the nurse gave you another shot of thorazine. Pleasant dreams.[/quote]

One only has to look at how we co-opted or retained the Nazi apparatus with its officers, bureaucracy, etc. after WW2 to keep W.Germany functional while prosecuting the top management in the Nurnberg trials as US precedent.

I did not say Allawi does not have his closet of skeletons, or that he is somehow above suspicion. You are so casual, or was it careless, with inferences and assumptions.

Senile and illogicial or same-old same-old. Zzzz.

So you’re still defending the great Bush plan to invade and bring its wealth of experience in nation-building. That’s pathetic.