Global warming (the third degree)

[quote=“bob”]Really cheap, stupid comments today fred. Almost below responding to but in case anybody else is foolish enough to read your garbage I’ll make a quick reply…

A movement towards mass transit is a move towards more sustainable, enjoyable living, not just a move away from global warming and a reliance on middle eastern oil.

Take a walk. Get to an intersection and as you stand there breathing the exhaust remind yourself that it is only cars that make such maddness necessary. If there were no cars there would be no need for traffic lights and no need to stand there increasing your risk of lung cancer.

If you don’t think rapid transit, as it has been developed so far in the cities you mentioned, or in Taipei for that matter, has helped to ease traffic congestion, check out those cities on one of the rare days the transit system is down.

Whether or not I can afford a car or would love to drive a car is an entirely “separate issue” I can think of many things I would love to do and am capable of doing, but refrain from doing such things because they would be harmful to other, innocent people. Perhaps you are familiar with the concept.

I really wonder how you live with being SO WRONG ALL THE TIME. I have honestly never had the experience. Perhaps you could share with us some of the psychological defense mechanisms you employ to sustain the illusion of wisdom and knowledge in the face of such a total defeat.[/quote]

You know what bob…this is great PM.

It’s even better after I tightened it up a bit.

Please, as per usual, allow us to continue. We may not always be polite but we are discussing issues of enormous importance that, like all issues of enormous importance, have a personal dimension.

JDSMITH: I don’t mind. It’s not as if Bob is going to be much of a threat to me intellectually or otherwise. His efforts at name calling are most amusing and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

The quicker the better…

It is a concern of yours and you are entitled to have that concern. You are also entitled to try to convince your fellow citizens and to join efforts to ensure that your goals are advanced politically. You do not, however, have the right to dictate that your concerns become those of everyone. So get busy and start motivating others to support your cause. A bit more effort, however, should be put into organizing and communicating your, um, I will swallow hard and use the word: “ideas.”

In a perfect world, I would not have my time wasted answering juvenile posts on Internet forums. Yes, Bob, I think that we can all look forward to the day when there are no cars… That will happen any time now if we could just get the political will to make it happen.

Nice try, but I did not say that I am against public transit. I think that it is a lovely thing for the masses. Just kidding. No. I fully recognize that mass transit has made Taipei more livable. Unfortunately, however, you are missing the point that the writer made and that is that more mass-transit systems are not going to have any effect on global warming. THAT was the point.

Well, then take action and stop posting. Your mindless drivel is of great harm to the sanity and sensibility of the other posters on this forum.

haha

I think that you can delete the “the” here and have an even more accurate representation of your, er, existence.

Humor, a good sense of humor, goes a long way. In fact, I am quite sure that I am laughing very hard right now about your defeat. Your total defeat. haha

You dribble. The writer may have been making the point that mass transit will not have an effect on global warming but if that is true it will likely be because a holes like you won’t get behind the concept in any meaningful way. And you’ll contort your intellect in all kinds of ways to make that seem justifiable. You’ll compare the environmental movement to religion and gloss over the fact that the environment is something real, you know, like clean air and water?

and shoot and SCORE

Glad you finally understand this. Jesus. It takes you a while.

Nothing to do with me and any support or non-support. EVEN WITH support, it will NOT have much of an effect on global warming and this is why I do not support Kyoto. I support mass-rapid transit but only when it makes financial sense. Each and every situation requires an independent and thoughful examination. Mass transit is not a unique good in and of itself. It is a method that may have beneficial results and these may or may not be worth the cost of their implementation.

What the hell?

Untrue. What you are doing is contorting the author’s “argument” in all sorts of ways to avoid facing the fact that his point is directly counter to yours.

For many of the fanatical adherents, environmentalism IS a religion. Look to Germany, read Gunther Grass and chuckle at his insight into the dogmatic character of the German nation.

Christ. Now, you are talking like valley girl Jack Burton. Yeah, like totally real, ya know?

and there it is, like I totally knew you would like say that like you know?

And the air and water have never been cleaner well at least not since the Middle Ages in many cities of Europe that is in the DEVELOPED world. Is that true in Africa, Asia and Latin America? No. AND with more development, that could become true. Kyoto will not deliver that. It will keep these areas poor and dirty. Development and lots more of it is the answer even though it may in fact contribute greatly (as the writer pointed out) to global warming but like he said, there ain’t much we can do about that is there?

Holy mother of all things, well, holy, I have explained to you fifty freaking times already that I didn’t agree with Kyoto. What I agree with is taxing the use of fossil fuels and using the revenue to provide, or create, an alternative. It is an idea that, with adjustments for local conditions, would work almost everywhere to both reduce the emmisions that cause global warming and to improve the quality of life. There would be no point in building a mass transit in a small town of course, but really, can you think of any major city that would not benefit from improved mass transit and increased disincentives to the use of peronal automobiles? And please, take a look at the situation from the point of view of someone who already uses public transit on a regular basis. We all know it’s nice to drive a car. What I am talking about is how all that automobile use is experienced by pedestrians. You say that I don’t have a right to force my opinions on anybody but the fact is that people who drive are alreday foisting the destructive impact of their decisions on me and others who don’t drive.

Your authors argument essentially is that a move to mass transit won’t work because people are too greedy and/or stubborn to make the change. Such cynicism must be difficult to live with.

So what are we fighting about? You agree with me on Kyoto so… what’s this discussion been about?

Depends on how much and in what way…

The ability to drive a car already contains many restrictions. Why not add more as you suggest? Why not have a higher tax on cars as you suggest? Get busy and try to get a movement going to legislate for this. I won’t stop you or even oppose you.

If it is, I missed it. I believe that his point is that given the extensive development that he predicts is likely to occur, build as many mass-transit systems as you like but it still will not have much of an effect on overall global warming. THAT was his point. His OTHER point is that governments who claim to care about global warming are not doing anything and the primary motive for their action is grandstanding. I have said this all along. Witness the actions of our European and Canadian friends.

I think that they are used to it.

Jack Burton is living in tract housing in the San Fernando Valley? I always thought he lived too far north (either Northern California or Vancouver) to be classified in such unflattering terms. :laughing:

What sense does that make? If you can get substantial numbers of people walking, riding bicycles, using mass transit systems rather than driving cars of course it will decrease green house gas emissions. Will it decrease it enough? Who knows but it is certainly a better start than waiting for an engineering solution that may or may not come. Hydrogen fuels require too much energy to produce and bio-fuels require too much energy and take up too much land. Got another idea there Eienstein?

Good point but what is he doing about it? Nothing, worse than nothing in fact because his arguments, like yours, will decrease the likelyhood of anyone taking personal responsibility for global warming, air pollution, traffic congestion, urban sprawl etc.

It is exactly the sort of growth that he predicts, and particularly the growth in urban populations that he conveniently neglects to mention, that make it so essential that controls be implemented on the spread of human activity, and a tax on gas is precisely the sort of control that is needed because it is the burning of gas that is causing so many problems.

Developing countries would benefit the most from a gas tax because it would force their governments to build mass transit systems. Housing, business, industrial developments would tend to concentrate around those systems and their populations would be freed the expense of automobile ownership.

A hell of a lot more than you are making. I strongly suggest that you go back and READ the article again if you ever even read it in the first place. You are talking about things in such a rambling way that I suspect you must be taking drugs…

Um, Bob, this is the writer’s point. He is saying EVEN IF all this mass-transit stuff goes ahead, it is still not going to make any appreciable difference and that CO2 concentrations are going to rise by 42 percent or even more…

No. I never said I had any ideas. I merely posted an article by a writer who pointed out the difficulties inherent in “fighting global warming.” I think that he addressed the point very well and I posted it to underline the realities of the difficulties of fighting global warming. You seem to think that something can be done about global warming. I have always said there is not much we can do about global warming and hence my total lack of interest in supporting Kyoto. Now, you seem to be suggesting that you never supported Kyoto all along but you still seem to be talking about reducing greenhouse gases ala the terms of that very same treaty. No?

Yes, the fact that national governments who claim to support Kyoto but are doing nothing other than political posturing is a good one. It is a very relevant point that sheep like the followers of environmental movements need to understand loud and clear. Is it better to posture or come out openly as George Bush has and say that the treaty cannot and does not work?

You just cannot get off this one-track issue of yours. The writer is not talking about what we should or should not be doing, he is talking about what can and cannot be done. There is a very big difference and again you have brought this back to a kind of stunted morality that I would address if I had any confidence that you would be able to understand the philosophical, rather pseudo philosophical stances that you are taking reflexively. Are you willing to examine the underpinnings of those reflexive stances? and the perhaps religious needs that they fulfill psychologically for you? I doubt it so I will pass on addressing them…

Um, where did you get this idea from? Certainly, not from his writing. I think that this is a jump in your speculative direction. This indicates your bias to what needs to be done and you are ramrodding it into his argument. REREAD the article again. You are so clouded with your own views on this subject that you are totally unable to comprehend what the writer is trying to address.

Sigh…

(wincing as I step into the middle of a Fred-Bob battle)

One question for Bob – who would implement this gas tax – are we talking individually per country or are you suggesting through the U.N. (or some other multi-national treaty arrangement)? This debate has me thinking about these things and I just wanted to clarify.

OK, I read it again. What I see is a person who can’t understand that you could have a serious effect on greenhouse gas emmissions by making gas more expensive, providing alternatives to the automobile and by designing cities around pedesrtians rather than the automobile.

Again, I said nothing about Kyoto. The aims of that plan were to ambitious for some countries and too slack on others while at the same time allowing for the spread of automobile culture, particularly in developing countries.

[quote=“fred smith”]Global warming may or may not be the great environmental crisis of the next century, but – regardless of whether it is or isn’t – we won’t
do much about it.

. . . Global warming promises to become a gushing source of national hypocrisy.’’

From 2003 to 2050, the world’s population is projected to grow from 6.4 billion people to 9.1 billion, a 42 percent increase. If energy use per person and technology remain the same, total energy use and greenhouse gas emissions (mainly, carbon dioxide) will be 42 percent higher in 2050. But that’s too low, because societies that grow richer use more energy. Unless we condemn the world’s poor to their present poverty – and freeze everyone else’s living standards – we need economic growth. With modest growth, energy use and greenhouse emissions more than double by 2050.

The IEA report assumes that existing technologies are rapidly improved and deployed. Vehicle fuel efficiency increases by 40 percent. In electricity generation, the share for coal (the fuel with the most greenhouse gases) shrinks from about 40 percent to about 25 percent – and much carbon dioxide is captured before going into the atmosphere. Little is captured today. Nuclear energy increases. So do “renewables” (wind, solar, biomass, geothermal); their share of global electricity output rises from 2 percent now to about 15 percent.

Some of these changes seem heroic. They would require tough government regulation, continued technological gains and public acceptance of higher fuel prices. Never mind. Having postulated a crash energy diet, the IEA simulates five scenarios with differing rates of technological change. In each, greenhouse emissions in 2050 are higher than today. The increases vary from 6 percent to 27 percent.

Since 1800 there’s been modest global warming. I’m unqualified to judge between those scientists (the majority) who blame man-made greenhouse gases and those (a small minority) who finger natural variations in the global weather system. But if the majority are correct, the IEA report indicates we’re now powerless. We can’t end annual greenhouse emissions, and once in the atmosphere, the gases seem to linger for decades. So concentration levels rise. They’re the villains; they presumably trap the world’s heat. They’re already about 36 percent higher than in 1800. Even with its program, the IEA says another 45 percent rise may be unavoidable. How much warming this might create is uncertain; so are the consequences.

I draw two conclusions – one political, one practical.

No government will adopt the draconian restrictions on economic growth and personal freedom (limits on electricity usage, driving and travel) that might curb global warming. Still, politicians want to show they’re "doing something. The result is grandstanding. Consider the Kyoto Protocol. It allowed countries that joined to castigate those that didn’t. But it hasn’t reduced carbon dioxide emissions (up about 25 percent since 1990), and many signatories didn’t adopt tough enough policies to hit their 2008-2012 targets. By some estimates, Europe may overshoot by 15 percent and Japan by 25 percent.

The trouble with the global warming debate is that it has become a moral crusade when it’s really an engineering problem. The inconvenient truth is that if we don’t solve the engineering problem, we’re helpless.[/ [/quote]

I think your guy is actually an apologist of sorts for the oil and gas companies. Either that or the automobile manufacturers.

[quote]The IEA report assumes that existing technologies are rapidly improved and deployed. Vehicle fuel efficiency increases by 40 percent. In electricity generation, the share for coal (the fuel with the most greenhouse gases) shrinks from about 40 percent to about 25 percent – and much carbon dioxide is captured before going into the atmosphere. Little is captured today. Nuclear energy increases. So do “renewables” (wind, solar, biomass, geothermal); their share of global electricity output rises from 2 percent now to about 15 percent.

Some of these changes seem heroic. They would require tough government regulation, continued technological gains and public acceptance of higher fuel prices. Never mind. Having postulated a crash energy diet, the IEA simulates five scenarios with differing rates of technological change. In each, greenhouse emissions in 2050 are higher than today. The increases vary from 6 percent to 27 percent.[/quote]

did you also read this section, Bob? eh? what? Hello?

[quote=“redandy”](wincing as I step into the middle of a Fred-Bob battle)

One question for Bob – who would implement this gas tax – are we talking individually per country or are you suggesting through the U.N. (or some other multi-national treaty arrangement)? This debate has me thinking about these things and I just wanted to clarify.[/quote]

I think it should be part of free trade agreements. If you want to be a member you need to commit to an improvement in mass transit.

Of course countries could take this on on their own out of pure self interest. Mass transit makes cities more livable and I, personally, do not think our economies would suffer as much as some suggest by the collapse of some segments of the oil and gas, automobile industries etc. People are industrious. Free them up from the burden of paying for their automobiles and they’ll invest in something else. Hopefully something a lot less destructive.

Let’s backtrack…

He didn’t mention mass transit once and he didn’t mention it because it represents an actual solution but one that would require a general reprioritizing. His projections were based on improved fuel effiecincy and other kinds of technological advancements occurring within the models of development and trade that are dominant now. Higher gas taxes funelled directly into mass transit systems would change those models by encouraging higher density housing, the local production of food, and by discouraging the blatantly wasteful consumerism that is at the root of all of our environmental problems, including global warming.

Funeling gas revenue directly into mass transit programs would have an enourmous impact on the quantity of green house gasses emitted and would also result in improved quality of life which, I’m sure you will be suprised to learn, is distinct from GNP.

At the beginning of this discussion, some sixty pages ago, you were of the opinion that “if” global warming was happening it was not due to human activity but was due to whatever caused the warming of Greenland hundreds of years ago. Now you seem willing to admit that human activity is causing the changes we see but cannot make the leap from that to accepting any changes in lifestyle that might affect your precious economic development, not even if those changes would represent an improvement in the general quality of life for almost everyone. I wonder, will it take another sixty pages and another year to demonstrate how wrong you are this time too?

And please, don’t come back and lecture me on Kyoto. I’ve no interest in discussing a flawed concept. The world, very much at the behest of Bill Clinton and the political right, made an enormous mistake when it failed to make improvements in environmental standards a condition of WTO membership.

I still think that those points are valid. I merely have ceased to keep beating on about the doubts regarding just what exactly is causing global warming because they are not central to my debate. The key has always been, so? what are we going to do about it? THAT is where I would like to focus the discussion.

Oh really? Where did I say that? I happen to believe that faster technological and economic development will be the BEST way to fight these environmental problems. I am merely pointing to different tactics to achieve the same goal, but you seem to have this almost Puritanical need to “sacrifice” something or engage in some sort of ritual mutilation or deprivation to “prove” your commitment to the “cause.”

When public transit makes sense economically, I am all for more of it. Where it does not make sense, I do not believe in raising taxes excessively to fund some White Elephant or Sacred Cow project. It is that simple.

Final comment: I agree with the author. Even with all the precious little mass-transit projects that Bob is proposing, at the end of the day, it is going to have a minimal effect on any global temperature increases. THAT is the problem Bob and THAT is why you keep avoiding facing it head on. You keep clutching to your mass-transit mantra like a little boy who cannot stop sucking his thumb clings to his little blankie. Grow up.

What shall we sacrifice? Education? A lot of people commute. If there’s no college, why leave the house?

What shall we sacrifice? Education? A lot of people commute. If there’s no college, why leave the house?[/quote]

And that must classify as the silliest post of the week so far.

So why not commute with more than one person in the car, why not commute to a gathering point form which good quality public transport, whether it be MRT, buses, trains whatever are present.

Do bushites even have a brain, or just a voice playback facility built into their bodies?

Well, it is Monday so I will assume this honor will be fast lost…

Who here is fighting against greater fuel efficiency or mass transit? No one. The problem is that even with these helpful programs, global warming will continue its relentless pace. So? What are we going to do about that? Should we try faster economic development and improved technology? or should we adopt the Kyoto Treaty which even Bob agrees is pointless. If EVEN Bob sees that, I think that Bush’s wisdom in keeping us out of the Treaty is painfully clear.

Given that the most intelligent voices on this forum generally favor the overall thrust of Bush’s policies at least internationally I guess I will have to assume that you are being fecitious here.

What shall we sacrifice? Education? A lot of people commute. If there’s no college, why leave the house?[/quote]

And that must classify as the silliest post of the week so far.

So why not commute with more than one person in the car, why not commute to a gathering point form which good quality public transport, whether it be MRT, buses, trains whatever are present.

Do bushites even have a brain, or just a voice playback facility built into their bodies?[/quote]

Come on. The week just began. And IT WAS A JOKE!

Thought you Brit had a sense o’ humor.

:slight_smile: