[quote=“NeonNoodle”]So it must be right and good! What were we thinking?[/quote]Right and good is an important conversation, and clearly some folks are contributing to that.
Whether a disclaimer is attached or not, and whether Google is lying or not, is another important conversation. Some of us are contributing to that.
Let me know if you’re still confused with the concept.
By the way, I think this whole exercise also gives us a chance to look at a different aspect of the “censorship” issue.
We’ve seen the very obvious example of politically-motivated censorship, by comparing the results from google.cn with google.com. Now, compare these two search results side by side:
Uncensored Chinese-language Google search for Tiananmen
Uncensored English-language Google search for Tiananmen
How do you account for that disparity? Why is the English-speaking world’s understanding of Tiananmen limited to, apparently, 6/4 and little else? What forces, if not outright political coercion, led to the development of this myopia? If the mainland Chinese are being denied information (which I do not deny), then why is the English-speaking world ignoring information freely available to them?
Note that the Chinese language search results aren’t censored, and the dataset comes from a wide range of Chinese-language web sources outside of mainland China (Taiwan, HK, Singapore, BBC-Chinese, Voice of America, Falun Gong).
Well, as sinister as Google’s censorship seems to the western world, the mere fact that google gets in is a mini step in the right direction. Better internet searching means more access to info, which means more holes to plug for the censors, which means more slip ups, which means more people stumbling across legitimate media. Better a censored google than none at all.
[quote=“cctang”]By the way, I think this whole exercise also gives us a chance to look at a different aspect of the “censorship” issue.
We’ve seen the very obvious example of politically-motivated censorship, by comparing the results from google.cn with google.com. Now, compare these two search results side by side:
Uncensored Chinese-language Google search for Tiananmen
Uncensored English-language Google search for Tiananmen
How do you account for that disparity? Why is the English-speaking world’s understanding of Tiananmen limited to, apparently, 6/4 and little else? What forces, if not outright political coercion, led to the development of this myopia? If the mainland Chinese are being denied information (which I do not deny), then why is the English-speaking world ignoring information freely available to them?
Note that the Chinese language search results aren’t censored, and the dataset comes from a wide range of Chinese-language web sources outside of mainland China (Taiwan, HK, Singapore, BBC-Chinese, Voice of America, Falun Gong).[/quote]
I’m sad that you think you’re some sort of censor yourself, filling forums with nonsense, and always failing to address the major problems with your government and the party that you are affiliated with. Is self improvement so difficult?
You also ignored the Google Images, arguably the most powerful post on this thread; there are 856 images for Tianamen on the English Google, while the Chinese Google had only 414.
If anyone is being ignorant, the Chinese government is keeping people like you, well… very ignorant.
[quote=“cctang”]It’s really too bad folks who like to poke their nose into these issues can’t actually read Chinese. For, if they could, they’d understand the following message at the bottom of all those pages:
据当地法律法规和政策，部分搜索结果未予显示。
Following local laws and regulations, a portion of the search results are not shown.
[/quote]
I’m using Google.cn, and I never saw it, I even triple checked after your statement just to make sure. Why don’t you take a screenshot and prove it? I don’t see any notices whatsoever, whereever on any of these pages.
The results are being filtered without any warning. As a shareholder I expect Google to be honest about the situation to us, and the general public.
I could not imagine why they would try to mislead us except in hoping that we would not investigate for themselves.
[quote=“Toe Tag”]A picture tells a thousand words. Compare and contrast:
images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen+square
images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen+square[/quote]
I just tried the google.cn link and was automatically redirected to google.com results, with all the tanks and what not.
I also tried to type in the url www.google.cn but was automatically redirected to google.com.
In other words, they seem to be trying to block people outside China from interfering in the internal affairs of google.cn. Very smart.
Everything about the Google issue is moving very fast now, so a lot of the arguments being made now are likely to lose currency in a couple of days.
[quote][img]春节
网页 图片 资讯 更多
[quote=“Levitator”][quote=“Toe Tag”]A picture tells a thousand words. Compare and contrast:
images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen+square
images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen+square[/quote]
I just tried the google.cn link and was automatically redirected to google.com results, with all the tanks and what not.
I also tried to type in the url www.google.cn but was automatically redirected to google.com.
In other words, they seem to be trying to block people outside China from interfering in the internal affairs of google.cn. Very smart.
[/quote]
One solution would be to find a proxy server in PRC and configure IE to use it, then Google would think you are in PRC and show you the PRC version. I’ve tested this, when I use a proxy server in Mexico then Google takes me to the Mexican version of Google. Open proxy servers sometimes sniff all your web traffic for credit card numbers though, so don’t leave it running beyond your experiment.
atomintersoft.com/products/a … roxy-list/ seems ok enough. Just keep plugging the numbers (and port too) in until you get one that works.
That said, images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen+square works for me now, and worked for me when I did my post. It only gives 68 results, which is your first indication of the sanitization it has performed.
After a few unsuccessful tries with proxies supposedly based in China, I was once again able to reach google.cn, WITHOUT any proxy. I got 11,800 results for an image search using “Tiananmen Square,” with the PLA tank photos at the top. That compares to 12,900 results on google.com. The results are not exactly the same, but the sensitive photos are there on cn.
What’s happening?
Edit: Okay, I see. I did another search using tiananmen square without quotes, then I got 68 results, without the tank photos.
Either Google.cn is still in beta mode or Google is deliberatly leaving some “trash” inside the cn engine to test the Chinese government’s resolve. Hmm. It would be interesting to see how it shapes up in the coming weeks.
Actually I’m getting the same results again. Something has changed since last night.
You guys must have set off the red flags. The commies have filter the search results now on “Tiannmen” both in articles and images.
Thanks a lot… 
We get it already: you don’t read Chinese. Why re-enforce it time and time again?
As far as a “screenshot” to prove it, they’re in the very first blog-links that you submitted in the very first post on this thread. Here it is again:
blog.outer-court.com/censored/
The sentence “据当地法律法规和政策，部分搜索结果未予显示” is on every single one of the screen-shots, except the one showing the google search for ‘playboy’ and ‘playboy.com’.
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
I’m using Google.cn, and I never saw it, I even triple checked after your statement just to make sure. Why don’t you take a screenshot and prove it? I don’t see any notices whatsoever, whereever on any of these pages.
[/quote]
We get it already: you don’t read Chinese. Why re-enforce it time and time again?
As far as a “screenshot” to prove it, they’re in the very first blog-links that you submitted in the very first post on this thread. Here it is again:
blog.outer-court.com/censored/
The sentence “据当地法律法规和政策，部分搜索结果未予显示” is on every single one of the screen-shots, except the one showing the google search for ‘playboy’ and ‘playboy.com’.[/quote]
The above sentence comes up every time I google something taboo. I don’t like seeing foreign companies helping the commies do their thing, but I’m actually quite surprised to see that Google is getting away with putting a very clear statement on their search results that tells mainlanders: “sorry, but because you’re a mainlander, you aren’t allowed to read about everything.” A good number of mainlanders (granted, the dumber lot) don’t even seem to understand that they don’t have access to everything on the internet. I’m surprised that Beijing is letting Google highlight this.
I don’t want to make any guesses as to the dumb mainlanders ya might know, JT… 
But anyone who’s spent more than a few hours online in China is well aware of the existence of censorship, both online and in print media. Perhaps not all of the technical details of what’s being done, but certainly the existence of a restrictive policy.
Party control of media sources isn’t at all a deep dark secret, some wool that the Communist Party pulls over the eyes of 1.3 ignorant mainland Chinese. It’s grounded in a public, political philosophy that everyone “understands” (even if not everyone agrees with).
As far as online “censorship” in particular, every Chinese forum ever has prominently posted notices that all postings/articles must obey relevant laws, and stay away from porn, anti-government activity, etc, etc… Every website on the mainland today is required to have an official license from the appropriate monitoring bureau. There are active (and publically named) moderators on every forum, and posts disappear frequently when they step over the bounds.
I don’t want to get too far down the “1984” path, here. Today’s China is nothing like that world, nor the world of the GP Cultural Revolution. There are no “thought-crimes”, and every subversive concept out there is discussed in the public and internet sphere by millions of Chinese. The logic behind censorship, which the vast majority of Chinese would grudgingly accept, is that China needs to stick with its current consensus (‘mainstream’ thought) rather than get into organized political confrontations between divided factions.
All search engines in China are censored to some degree. They are not going to change this just for Google, no matter how big they are. Google can choose not to fully enter the market (because of “ethical” issues) but that would give more room to Baidu and Yahoo grow in their absence. Which CEO in their right mind would do something like that?!!
It was never about human rights or ethical stuff, just a business decision.
I think you could reasonably ammend the bolded bit to the vast majority of Chinese apologists.
More on Google in China here: Google cements brick in the great firewall of China
HG
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“NeonNoodle”]So it must be right and good! What were we thinking?[/quote]Right and good is an important conversation, and clearly some folks are contributing to that.
Whether a disclaimer is attached or not, and whether Google is lying or not, is another important conversation. Some of us are contributing to that.
Let me know if you’re still confused with the concept.[/quote]
Not sure why you suggest I am not contributing. Is being verbose necessary for contribution?
Google comes out with the motto “Don’t Be Evil” and yet they aid the Chinese government in restricting access to the Internet. Putting a disclaimer at the bottom of a search does not excuse the behavior. Must “Don’t Be Evil” be contingent on local laws? If Google wants to be serious about its principles then it should be. Otherwise it seems that company profits trump its pledge. Should Google have its cake and eat it too?
As the following excerpt points out, other industries have worked together to develop basic ethics and standards regarding problems they face in their respective industries.
[quote]One way out – hinted at by Microsoft’s code about blogs – would be for the Internet industry, as a group, to develop a set of global standards for dealing with censorship. They could, at a minimum, work together and with the U.S. government to lobby China to open up. That way, no one company could gain an advantage by cooperating with the Chinese. “If companies put up a united front and are supported by the U.S. government, they’d be in a strong position,” said Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch.
There’s precedent for this. Oil and mining companies have set up principles for dealing with corruption, electronics companies have a recycling code and the toy industry has standards for labor conditions in the developing world.[/quote]
complete article here
Am I contributing now?
This is a good response to Business Week’s article:
Nickname: Aurora
Review: As a Chinese expatriate, I feel a need to explain the situation to Westerners. The Chinese people are afraid of the government, and the government is afraid of its people. Everything the Chinese government does is to try and keep themselves in power; through censorship, self-congratulatory propaganda, but most of all, through fear. That is why self-censorship is rampant, because not many people in China (especially businesses) are willing to stick out their neck for the sake of “free speech,” because the threat from the Chinese government is not empty. I will tell you of horrendous things that have occured in China as only its people will know. (You cannot compare what has occured in America to what occurs in China.) Perhaps foreign companies do not understand the ramifications of their actions, but as they say, money always beckons.
Date reviewed: Jan 17, 2006 7:15 AM
On www.google.cn - on the bottom, you can choose to go to “Google.com in English” - is there anything preventing mainlanders from doing that?
Shawn,
Good question.
No, google.com can be accessed (with or without that link) from inside China. The only distinction is that all firewall routers on the edge of China’s TCP/IP network filter based on content. If/when it sees a page (on google.com or any other site) with specific keywords, the router closes connection.
So yes, Chinese users can already (and continue to) use Google. But if their search results have blacklisted words, the users lose their Google.com connection (often for some length of time).
Google’s motivation for creating Google.cn and self-censorship is that they want to provide a better user experience for the user. In other words, users are still kept from seeing certain search results… except instead of losing their connection and seeing nothing from the search, google.cn can at least serve up other relevant search results.
PS. I’m the only one elected to speak for 1.3 billion Chinese. This Aurora person is overstepping her bounds.
What about a hypothetical situation where Google.com censors search results sensitive to the USA fight on terrorism? What if certain pages are not shown to American IP pertaining to Islamic extremism or USA government activities in the Middle East. Or god forbid a coffin of an American soldier coming back home.
Would that be an indication that Google is not meeting their corporate responsibility.
Anyways GOOG is down since the last day trading. I don’t think it has anything to do with how and why they censor their searches.
ac and cc:
The two of you need a reality check. Both of you are talking bullshit which would be cencored in China, but you still go on doing it because you can. :fume: :fume:
Why can’t you guys accept that we only want all Chinese to read/see what is going on around ther world, and in the neighbourhood? -Defending cencorship is really out of bounds and common sense!!!