funny! so they took NALUWAN, and using the Japanese way turn the L into an R, just like lost in translation. Dummies!
Why didn’t they ask a foreigner how to spell it?
[quote=“skeptic yank”]24,000 to fly from Japan to Taiwan. ouch. hello hawai.
if you had a friend back home, what would you tell him is a “must see” in Taiwan? national palce museum? kinda boring as far as museums go, even from a museum lover such as i. taroko? yeah. Taipei has nothing that can’t be found outside of most large chinatowns. why would western tourists want to come to Taiwan?[/quote]
Real life frogger! (I’m the guy in the Matiz trying to flatten you 
)
Okay, so I’ve spent quite a few weekends checking out some of the “tourist” spots in central Taiwan. About the only one that I’d actually take a visitor to is Lion’s Head Mountain…and even that isn’t maintained particularly well nor is it using traditional building techniques (concrete reproductions of wood and bamboo are the norm).
One of the difficulties of photography here is the question of what to photograph. I photograph Taiwan as I see it, and there are very, very few shots that would generate any interest in a tourist (one of these years I’m gonna start spending more time in the north). The temples are often impossible to photograph well because of the run down concrete buildings that have sprung up around them…most tourists would notice that also. A lot of temple photography is tough because of the cheapo light fixtures in an otherwise exquisite temple (often the fixture is rusty and falling down). My advice once to the mayor of Hsinchu about tourism was to start maintaining what you already have before building something new next to the building that you’ve allowed to become decrepit. On this line, a very good Chinese friend once said “We Chinese can build the most magnificent structure, better than anyone else in the world…and it will be useless because of a lack of maintenance in 10 years.” THAT says a lot 
.
Funny, I’ve seen pictures of Tokyo in the early 70s, a mess. What happened? It is now one of my favorite cities, there is beauty AND a sense of carefully planned space.
no! we can’t use “naluwan” because it matches china’s pinyin system! it is better to use a spelling that is harder to comprehend.
Japan got rich. Billions of yen. When that happens here, watch out! Taiwan is still a 6th World country.
What to photograph? I’d say the people’s faces. Don’t waste film on buildings and sunsets. Do people.
Good grief, you people need to get out more. Nothing to photograph that would attract tourists?
Are you telling me that pictures of the Pingxi lantern festival, where hundreds of sky lanterns are sent into the sky at the same time wouldn’t attract tourists?
Are you telling me that pictures of the fireworks battle in Yenshui, or the giant festivals around Matzu’s birthday in Beigang, Lugang, and Tainan, or the boat burning festival in Donggang wouldn’t attract tourists?
Are you telling me that pictures of Sun Moon Lake, Penghu, Kenting, Hehuanshan, Lishan, Alishan, Yushan, Tarako Gorge, wouldn’t attract tourist?
Are you telling me that pictures of hundreds of purple butterflies taking flight in Maolin as the sun rises wouldn’t attract tourists? Or pictures of the ancient trees in Smangus or Lalashan? Or the weird mist in Hell Valley? Or the fireflies in Ruili?
Are you telling me that pictures of the four 10-meter tall heavenly guards protecting the entrance to Jung Tai Chan Temple wouldn’t attract tourists? Or the front gate to Nenkunshen Temple? Or the elaborate relief at Tzuhu Temple?
Are you telling me you’ve taken pictures from the Cross Central Highway, from Tienchih and Fushoushan, and no one was interested? Or you’ve driven down the east coast and there was nothing that caught your eye?
Is this what you’re telling me?
WoW! :shock: :shock:
BFM: Are you going to eat that?
Taiwan: Hao Ke Ai!
I used to host a program about Taiwan’s aborigines, called “Naluwan.” (I also refuse to spell it the Japanese way). At the time I chose the name because it is the only word used in common by many of the different tribes. I believe that there are also several Chinese programs that have used this name in the past (on Public television etc.)
The problem with using it as a greeting (the Taiwanese Aloha), is that it was never intended to be used as such. You can hear it in songs from the different tribes, and it’s used like “la la la” is used in English songs. I asked quite a number of aboriginal friends what it means, and they all shrug and say its just used in singing.
I appaud the tourism ministry’s efforts, but question their logic.
Nice one Muzha Man.
[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]Good grief, you people need to get out more. Nothing to photograph that would attract tourists?
Are you telling me that pictures of the Pingxi lantern festival, where hundreds of sky lanterns are sent into the sky at the same time wouldn’t attract tourists?
Are you telling me that pictures of the fireworks battle in Yanshui, or the giant festivals around Matzu’s birthday in Beigang, Lugang, and Tainan, or the boat burning festival in Donggang wouldn’t attract tourists?
Are you telling me that pictures of Sun Moon Lake, Penghu, Kenting (Kending), Hehuanshan, Lishan, Alishan, Yushan, Tarako Gorge, wouldn’t attract tourist?
Are you telling me that pictures of hundreds of purple butterflies taking flight in Maolin as the sun rises wouldn’t attract tourists? Or pictures of the ancient trees in Smangus or Lalashan? Or the weird mist in Hell Valley? Or the fireflies in Ruili?
Are you telling me that pictures of the four 10-meter tall heavenly guards protecting the entrance to Jung Tai Chan Temple wouldn’t attract tourists? Or the front gate to Nenkunshen Temple? Or the elaborate relief at Tzuhu Temple?
Are you telling me you’ve taken pictures from the Cross Central Highway, from Tienchih and Fushoushan, and no one was interested? Or you’ve driven down the east coast and there was nothing that caught your eye?
Is this what you’re telling me?
WoW! :shock: :shock:[/quote]
Faces is actually a lot of what I’m focusing on. I realize that there are often a single place where a particular style of archetecture or a particular cultural tradition is still observed traditionally, but that is far from what is going to actually attract tourists. Possibly it is my location, where one would EXPECT traditional activities and structures to still exist, but it seems that the vast majority of cultural heratage is going/has gone down the tubes.
Landscapes are fine, untile you realize that to most people they are of little interest. I honestly haven’t bee on the cross island highway since 1991…something I’m planing on doing in a month or two, but my question is WHAT is on that highway. The traditional mountainside villiages are pretty much in ruin around here (hence my interest in photographing abandoned structures), and I imagine that the ones on the cross island highway are in the same condition.
Actually, the places you mention are all places that are on my short list for sites. However, what I’ve found is that GOOD shots of most tourist places are very difficult to get because of various things (like electric service being run across the front of a 200 year old temple instead of underground to preserve the visual integrity…or like building a concrete bunker style structure so close that it is impossible to get a good shot of the original structure). In my PERSONAL album, I have a lot of these shots…realizing that they are artisticaly substandard because of limitations imposed by place. THAT is my point. My definition of a good shot is probably different than a lot of people, and maybe tourists don’t care about the overal visual integrity of a traditional attraction, I dunno. It just seems that around here (and I’ve been to quite a few temples, and am still exploring a lot of places that aren’t listed in guides to see what is there), it seems that the modern “improvements” have done little to actually maintain the integrity of the original structure.
The other problem with shooting the few that ARE maintained is the sea of people…you can’t get a good shot of a structure when there is an ocean of people, if there is a crowd, you can sometimes work from a people perspective that includes part of the structure. There are ways around this, like trying to gain access when most people are not permitted (something I am working on at the Hsinchu Confucious temple).
A good example is 2 rolls I shot of a beautiful small MODERN temple, with no useable shots because of the wires, cables, and delapidated concrete bunker structures built up around it (I also realize that this was built as a place of worship, but it would seem that the Feng Shuei should have demanded slightly better placement in relation to the other buildings)…just one example, but there are many others that could replace it.
I’ve seen your work (I really like the one of your model sitting in a shell) and I know where you’re coming from, but think it is unfair to criticize the tourist potential of this country because you can’t get clean shots.
Two points spring to mind. One, why is the intregity of your shots comprimised, rather than enhanced by the presence of wires and odd, even ugly buildings around otherwise beautiful structures? Temples in Taiwan are part of the community. They are used daily, hourly, somtimes for purposes compeltely at odds with worship. Why not look for shots that will bring this odd relationship out rather than trying to hide it?
When I was in Guatemala I saw an Easter Parade where the cross was carried throughout town on a little wagon pulled by a motorcycle. A loud, stinking, roaring generator was also dragged along as this provided power for the flashing Christmas lights that decorated the cross. Now everyone I have ever told this story to finds it fascinating and wishes they could see something so odd, something that blends traditional with modernity in such an improbably way.
When stuff like this happens in Guatemala, everyone coos about culture. When it happens in taiwan everyone rolls their eyes and complains about the poor taste.
In Changhua there is an old well built 300 years ago by the Dutch. When you see it now you may feel it is perhaps an ugly sight, a wasted sight. Only the original brick base is left. The rest has been covered with a tin lid and a modern pump draws water for the local shanties. And yet, if you look at this sight properly it is fascinating. Across the street sit modern apartments. Here at the well, old women wash their family’s clothing in the acqeduct and old men sit and drink tea from water pulled from the well. A true photo of this place would try to capture the bizzare mixture of the ancient and modern. In this one tiny spot we have three periods all brought together: the Dutch period, the recent past, and the present. To me, visiting the well as it is, is much more rewarding than if it had been preserved properly. A proper well would elicit nothigng more from a tourist than “Oh, we saw a 300 year old well.” As it is now, there is a story to tell about a 300 year well than is still being used today. A well that is the lifeblood of a group of people who have not caught up to modern times.
As for most people not being interested in shots of nature, I beg to differ. Why do people travel to Yosemite, or Banff, or Australia, or Alaska if not simply to view stunning landscape?
One thing I have found is that a lot of oldtimers in Taiwan don’t know how much things are changing. Places are being cleaned up (Daxi is a good example, where they buried all the cables and wires underground to preserve the look of the old street), new attractive facilites being built, and bike routes and hikign trails set up everywhere.
No reason to come to Taiwan? Come just for the hiking. As part of the 2008 goal of doubling the number of tourists, Nt3billion has been set for improving and establishing new trails. Plans are in place to build a national network of trails so that people can walk from one end of the island to the other.
People who have been here too long forget that to the first time visitor, even the crowds and ugliness can be fascinating. Everytime my mom visits she asks me to take her to busy intersections to see hundreds of scooters roar away when the lights change.
Cables across a temple? Fascinating to the newbie as it confounds his expectations of how to treat a sacred place. Ugly little towns? Yes, but then look at the cars. These are not poor people. What is going on?
Of course I’m not suggesting that people send tourists to ugly little towns with nothing else in them, but rather that we adjust our attitude. The towns are. They are discovering that while they don’t have beautiful buildings they have a fabulous natural environment at their doorsteps. So they build a few trails in the nearby mountains, and turn an old road into a bike path. Viola. It may not be an international destination, but it makes for a nice weekend retreat.
The towns that do have cultural resources are trying to improve them. I haven’t been to Beipu yet, but from what I saw on TV a few weeks ago, they have restored a number of old buildings in town. And they have used traditional tools and materials to do so.
The times they are a changing my friend. It’s time to see Taiwan with new eyes.
But seldom beyond expectoration, alas!
Though actually, that’s a hell of a good picture of Taipei 101 in the Time ad. It makes it look much more splendid and imposing than it has ever appeared to my eyes from whatever position I’ve viewed it.
As for the plan itself, I can only applaud the government for making the decision to focus substantial resources on developing both domestic and inbound tourism. Taiwan does have plenty of places worth visiting and things worth seeing and doing, and if it can put enough effort, money, and whatever else is needed into developing the requisite supporting infrastructure and services, tourism has great potential to make an enormous contribution to economic growth, job creation, quality of life, and international recognition and appreciation of these islands.
An international advertising campaign is obviously a good start, and well worth the relatively modest amount of money spent on it. Perhaps they should complement that by saturating the Internet with the kind of clear, practical, up-to-date, and easily accessible information that is most likely to lure large numbers of foreigners here and make it as easy as possible for them to get around, know what’s what, and see and experience the best that Taiwan has to offer during their stay. A small team of well-paid and well-equipped foreigners recruited from us long-term residents would be able to do that very well and would surely be an excellent investment.
Thanks, I knew she was going to howl when I told her to sit in that old broken pot 
, fortunately, she’s a trooper and realizes that I’m a bit of a lunatic (next time I’ll add live fireants to enhace facial expressions )
Excellent points, I think I’ve been mulling something similar…I’ve finally found my old Palm Pilot and am going to start putting in days of annal festivals to try to do this. I base a lot of the criticism of my shots on the comments I get from a wierd international group of photographers and non-photographers. OFTEN, a shot that I love gets panned in the rating process, and in all honesty it doesn’t bother me (have a shot of an old style dump truck filled with boulders going though a partially abandoned mountain villiage…the windshield over the passenger side is gone, there is a 2L bottle on the dash, and a laudry basket with something in it behind the non-existant windshield, the doors are missing, and there is an abandoned concrete-bunker style house completely overgrown with dead vines on one side of the road…a fantastic shot from my perspective, but it only got an average rating of 5-6 out of 14 because, from what most people said, it only has meaning to someone who has been here or IS here 
).
Funny thing is that I see a lot less of this, I REALLY want some good shots of the old 1-cyl diesel dump tricycles, but haven’t seen one for YEARS. There are still quite a few of the bike and motorcycle tricycles around, just never when I have a camera or good light (natures stuffs up a good shot quite often, ).
I think that the difference may be the greatness of past cultural achievements. In Guatemala, I’d probably be chasing after Inca, Aztec, Tolmec (can’t remember who the ancient empire was there) relics in addition to local culture. I think what I see is less and less of the old culture, and more modernization (which I shoot also, but they aren’t as interesting).
Ratz, I ahve class, will continue this later .
[quote]In Changhua (Zhanghua) there is an old well built 300 years ago by the Dutch. When you see it now you may feel it is perhaps an ugly sight, a wasted sight. Only the original brick base is left. The rest has been covered with a tin lid and a modern pump draws water for the local shanties. And yet, if you look at this sight properly it is fascinating. Across the street sit modern apartments. Here at the well, old women wash their family’s clothing in the acqeduct and old men sit and drink tea from water pulled from the well. A true photo of this place would try to capture the bizzare mixture of the ancient and modern. In this one tiny spot we have three periods all brought together: the Dutch period, the recent past, and the present. To me, visiting the well as it is, is much more rewarding than if it had been preserved properly. A proper well would elicit nothigng more from a tourist than “Oh, we saw a 300 year old well.” As it is now, there is a story to tell about a 300 year well than is still being used today. A well that is the lifeblood of a group of people who have not caught up to modern times.
[/quote]
'Kin 'ell, thats some some good shit there.
[quote="Mucha (Muzha)
In Changhua (Zhanghua) there is an old well built 300 years ago by the Dutch. When you see it now you may feel it is perhaps an ugly sight, a wasted sight. Only the original brick base is left. The rest has been covered with a tin lid and a modern pump draws water for the local shanties. And yet, if you look at this sight properly it is fascinating. Across the street sit modern apartments. Here at the well, old women wash their family’s clothing in the acqeduct and old men sit and drink tea from water pulled from the well. A true photo of this place would try to capture the bizzare mixture of the ancient and modern. In this one tiny spot we have three periods all brought together: the Dutch period, the recent past, and the present. To me, visiting the well as it is, is much more rewarding than if it had been preserved properly. A proper well would elicit nothigng more from a tourist than “Oh, we saw a 300 year old well.” As it is now, there is a story to tell about a 300 year well than is still being used today. A well that is the lifeblood of a group of people who have not caught up to modern times. [/quote]
This is exactly the kind of shot I like, but the problem is without supporting text, no one will see the fascination of it. I’ve tried captioning shots like this, all with the same result. They are really of interest to people who are here, or who have been here. I still TAKE them…maybe eventually they will be of interest (found a traditional charcoal factory, two “ovens.” One had a more modern tin roof, the other a traditional thatched roof, haven’t seen one in years-n-years…shot it, 3 of the shots actually were good, the rest may eventually become interesting as tin roofs disapear…unfortunately, there is a freeway overpass being constructed 10-20 meters away which kills the balance in a lot of the shots, but some day…who knows…they may be interesting to others).
Hmmm, I think you have a point. The problem may be that I’ve seen so many incredible vistas in the mountains that shooting another seems dull. Funny, though…of all the shots I have done of the mountains, only one has survived the critique, and I am baffled as to why only one and why THAT one…strange .
VERY cool, I didn’t know that. Yeah, things are changing fast. I have seen so many things that I would KILL to have thought to take a picture (ox carts, maaaaan, I’ve seen a lot…a long time ago…haven’t seen one in 10 years, hopefully I’ll run across ONE MORE in the countryside ).
Hmmm, another good point. I used to enjoy hiking…again, lanscapes seem to be the main thing you run across hiking. I’ve become a tad interested in caves and have gotten some amazing images of trees (and some not so amazing, but fun pictures of squirrels at dusk…had to use a flash, so they are not professional material, but gimme 40 minutes of chasing squirrels with a camera and I R happe ).
That’s what I thought, until I started shooting exactly that and found that the critics were merciless. Street shots aren’t my forte, but this is the perfect place to fix that 
.
[/quote]Cables across a temple? Fascinating to the newbie as it confounds his expectations of how to treat a sacred place. Ugly little towns? Yes, but then look at the cars. These are not poor people. What is going on? [/quote]
The towns can definitely be interesting, but trust me…a cable in a temple shot will get it shot down incredibly fast (again, I still take 'em on the off chance that the temple eventually disapears).
Yeah, I live in one o’ them ugly little towns and enough ferreting around has gotten some interesting shots. I just wish there were more old structures.
But is it changing in such a way that will attract tourists? I dunno, maybe . A friend of mine who came from the U.S. for a few days was fascinated, called me an “old jaded S.O.B.”. Can’t really argue with that .
Splendid eloquence from Mucha Man!
MM, I hope you are or soon will be employed by the government to write promotional blurb for Taiwan. Stuff like you’ve written in this thread, straight from the heart and acutely perceptive and persuasive, ought to be able to lure plenty of foreign tourists to these shores.
That was a fast class. Sorry kids, gotta go argue about the tourist potential of this place with another laowai.
I think we are arguing somewhat at cross-purposes since your point is more about getting photos accepted and mine about places interesting to visit. The well, for example, as you said, probably couldn’t be captured with a single photo, but as an entry in a guide book, it sounds very attractive. Or the cables around a temple may get your work panned by photgraphers, but ordinary tourists are unlikely to even notice as they step into the temple to examine the fascinating interior, or watch the parade of worship around them.
As for mountains, yeah it’s hard to get good shots here, with the glare of the sun and humidity but that doesn’t mean much to the naked eye that is revelling in the beauty around it.
Taiwan has great tourist potential. It just needs to be presented the right way. In Luigui they have opened up a number of old tunnels for recreational purposes. For years these things sat abandoned until someone realized that, hey, walking through a series of 6 long tunnels in the mountain is actually pretty fun. Of course this is not going to draw in the tourists, but when you add in river rafting, the wedding arch road, the 18 Lohans mountains, two forest reserves, grass skiing, hotsprings, the really big and excellent wax apples, nearby Meinong with its Hakka umbrellas and other crafts, and Maolin with its stunning mountain scenery, aboriginal culture, hotsprings, and purple butterfly valley,and you’ve got an area that’s pretty damn amazing to visit.
Potential yes, in theory. But let’s face it, in fact, with the nearby competition of Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and China … most international jetsetter tourists beautiful people are NOT going to come here. They fly from Paris New York London LA …straight into Shanghai or Beijing or Tokyo or Saigon or Bangkok … and there is no reason to detour here unless it’s a flight layover or refueling stop.
It, sadly, maybe fortunately, will always be this way. Taiwan will NEVER be an international tourist destination. It simply doesn’t have the goods, and even the cleverest PR campaign in the world will not bring in the tourists.
I am glad. Who wants tourist buses messing the chaotic mess up more? Taiwan is interesting as it is, for us hitchhikers in the universe. It will never happen here.
Taiwan’s destiny is to be a lone island in a sea of tourism overload.
But meanwhile, get your photos, yes, and let’s all have fun. While it lasts.
[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]That was a fast class. Sorry kids, gotta go argue about the tourist potential of this place with another laowai.
I think we are arguing somewhat at cross-purposes since your point is more about getting photos accepted and mine about places interesting to visit. The well, for example, as you said, probably couldn’t be captured with a single photo, but as an entry in a guide book, it sounds very attractive. Or the cables around a temple may get your work panned by photgraphers, but ordinary tourists are unlikely to even notice as they step into the temple to examine the fascinating interior, or watch the parade of worship around them.
As for mountains, yeah it’s hard to get good shots here, with the glare of the sun and humidity but that doesn’t mean much to the naked eye that is revelling in the beauty around it.
Taiwan has great tourist potential. It just needs to be presented the right way. In Luigui they have opened up a number of old tunnels for recreational purposes. For years these things sat abandoned until someone realized that, hey, walking through a series of 6 long tunnels in the mountain is actually pretty fun. Of course this is not going to draw in the tourists, but when you add in river rafting, the wedding arch road, the 18 Lohans mountains, two forest reserves, grass skiing, hotsprings, the really big and excellent wax apples, nearby Meinong with its Hakka umbrellas and other crafts, and Maolin with its stunning mountain scenery, aboriginal culture, hotsprings, and purple butterfly valley,and you’ve got an area that’s pretty damn amazing to visit.[/quote]
Yep, that’s the problem…even as a photographer, I see an amazing shot, take it…and only AFTER it is processed and printed do I notice the black cable going across the most beautiful part of the building. These days, I look first and try to shoot from a different angle. As a shot for a tourist guide, you CAN’T have that cable…it WILL stick out, but if you can shoot around it, the person visiting will be so awed that the brain’s natural ability to selectively focus will look right through it…the problem is getting the initial shot.
I’m still fond of my shots of haze shrouded mountains, but boy, they get ripped apart in critique .
HAKKA UMBRELLAS AND CRAFTS??? I’m there. I’ve lived in majority Hakka areas for YEARS and have never seen them.
Another thread to print for its great advice that is NOT listed in Lonely Planet (just read the thing cover to cover again).
What you are describing seems a little like the resort kind of thing. Something like what Kentin was turning in to the last time I was there in 1989 (I hear that it has succeeded, will venture down there this spring sometime). I agree, if you set aside areas and build/rebuild them as tourist spots, there IS potential. BUT, what about the people (like me, and a lot of others) who prefer to not go to the package spots? Wu Lai is a good example of a place that I think has been over touristified with its initial gauntlet of tourist traps. The guy selling gems part way up is actually a breath of fresh air (he knows his stuff and is honest to boot, used to be in his business and his prices were fair, and quality was as he described). Wu Lai seems to have been built with the Japanese tourist in mind and it has worked quite well.
Potential yes, in theory. But let’s face it, in fact, with the nearby competition of Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and China … most international jetsetter tourists beautiful people are NOT going to come here. They fly from Paris New York London LA …straight into Shanghai or Beijing or Tokyo or Saigon or Bangkok … and there is no reason to detour here unless it’s a flight layover or refueling stop.
It, sadly, maybe fortunately, will always be this way. Taiwan will NEVER be an international tourist destination. It simply doesn’t have the goods, and even the cleverest PR campaign in the world will not bring in the tourists.
I am glad. Who wants tourist buses messing the chaotic mess up more? Taiwan is interesting as it is, for us hitchhikers in the universe. It will never happen here.
Taiwan’s destiny is to be a lone island in a sea of tourism overload.
But meanwhile, get your photos, yes, and let’s all have fun. While it lasts.[/quote]
One thing that did occur to me that the current campaign is rather unoriginal and strikes as a copy of what Hawaii did. Malaysia’s seems original, and to be honest, if I’ve seen Singapore’s campaign, it wasn’t memorable (because I cain’t remumber it). Seems like it would be a better idea to come up with a unique campaign and slogan for Taiwan, and not one that “borrows” a little known phrase from a one of the 60 odd aboriginal languages. If I recall, “aloha” was somewhat common in Hawaii before the campaign…I talked to a couple of aboriginal friends who were somewhat surprised that anyone had borrowed “Naluwan” (as it is pronounced) and turned it into “Naruwan.” Any foreigner getting off a plane and squalling “Naruwan” at the top of his/her lungs would probably be pointed to the nearest restroom.
But this is in one of my current hobby horses, even in my classes I’m insisting on as much creativity as I can muster from my students. Some are VERY creative, and others…well…I’m having two more 220V circuits run to hook some up to to see if we can jump start them neurons…SOME must be working because they are breathing without aid, but the rest…I dunno .