In my area of Riverside Park there are a lot of Stray dogs. These dogs are well fed, very few have limps or injuries and are generally non threatening although will bark at pet dogs. Most of those dogs have been spayed due to a few Ai Shin mother’s catching them and taking them off for spaying and then re-releasing them back into the same area.
Something I have been thinking about over the last few months is that these dogs actually seem extremely “happy”. They appear to have no skin diseases and relatively few injuries. I did launch a sort of mini campaign to stop the locals using gin traps in that part of the park “stop using those traps and we will stop complaining about you digging illegal gardens and placing the traps”. The amount of gin traps has subsided to almost non existent with the odd exception. Considering this I have come to the conclusion that these dogs are actually very happy and would not gain from being adopted. I have seen one particular dog for about two years that generally keeps to herself. She is very friendly, has no skin disease whatsoever, and is rippling with muscles. A dog I would have loved to have kept during my lurcher days back in the UK due to its explosive speed and agility witnessed when playing with pet dogs. Yah sure most people would like to see all these dogs off the streets and parks however that is not what I am asking here I am just curious as to what other people think on the question of “stray dog happiness” in this situation. After all being a stray in riverside park will result in you being well fed, relatively safe and most importantly free from life in a little cage or chain. Those dogs look very “content” indeed! Would they really be more contented being a pet than living this life of freedom? It seems that it aint a bad life! ( I am asking about dog contentment here not a human safety question)
I think the strays are happy to be able to run around free and not be cooped up in a cage or even in a small apartment. If they’re not sick or injured, that is.
I knew one stray that seemed very happy. He would wait for me every day at the bus stop when I got home from work, and then would follow me around. A friend of mine and I would often stroll around the area or sit and chat outside, and this dog would accompany us. I kind of wish I had adopted him, but would he really have wanted to be cooped up in my apartment all day waiting for me to come home?
There is this lovely white cat whol lives close to Exit 2 at Taipei Main Station. He just appears and dissappears among the bushes. I trie dcatching her once, concerned about her safety, but failed. Actually, she’s doing fine so far, stretching in teh sun, chasing birds and butterflies, having a ball with the other stray cats. I know her life will be shorter and that she will probably die a violent death, but so far as her life goes, she seems happy as can be expected.
The outside cats I feed also play a lot and have the neighborhood as their playground.
I had a conversation with a local at the night market about this last night! He said the strays are happy because people feed them and the weather’s not so bad. Simple as that. I agree with the original posting. The strays genuinely appear to be happy, roaming the streets and parks uninhibited, which is a good thing.
I will have to say that for some strays life is good and for others it’s not.
If the strays are lucky enough to be fed and have been de-sexed and are safe from cruelty and have good shelter then yes i can see that they would have a good life. Dogs are pack animals and don’t necessarly need a human as a companion. They are happy with their pack. They have the freedom to wonder and live life as a “wild” dog.
However, the other side isn’t so happy, many dogs get hearworm, other worms, skin problems, poisoned, beaten and chased. This isn’t such a happy life. They have to search for food and can often get into fights with other packs if they haven’t found their own.
[quote=“UKbikerchic”]I will have to say that for some strays life is good and for others it’s not.
If the strays are lucky enough to be fed and have been de-sexed and are safe from cruelty and have good shelter then yes i can see that they would have a good life. Dogs are pack animals and don’t necessarly need a human as a companion. They are happy with their pack. They have the freedom to wonder and live life as a “wild” dog.
However, the other side isn’t so happy, many dogs get hearworm, other worms, skin problems, poisoned, beaten and chased. This isn’t such a happy life. They have to search for food and can often get into fights with other packs if they haven’t found their own.[/quote]
Our community has a stray-management program, and we’ve had a population of about six or so CNRed dogs living happily here for some time.
But over the last few years, we have lost most of them, to gin traps, disease, and cars.
However, considering the alternatives (euthanasia or taking the place of another dog who would otherwse be euthanised) I believe it’s still a positive move, and the dogs seem pretty content and get to live a fairly free life. One mustn’t think that it’s going to happy ever after, though.
[quote=“Stray Dog”]Our community has a stray-management program, and we’ve had a population of about six or so CNRed dogs living happily here for some time.
But over the last few years, we have lost most of them, to gin traps, disease, and cars.
However, considering the alternatives (euthanasia or taking the place of another dog who would otherwse be euthanised) I believe it’s still a positive move, and the dogs seem pretty content and get to live a fairly free life. One mustn’t think that it’s going to happy ever after, though.[/quote]
That’s why they do well in my area of riverside park because there are no or very few gin traps, no cars and a generally tolerant bunch of park walkers. So yeah i could see how in other places it would be a far different story. Also the ai shin mother’s feed them and get them spayed.
Perhaps the views on this thread reflect survivorship bias. From wikipedia:
"Survivorship bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that “survived” some process and ignoring those that didn’t. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. The survivors may literally be people, as in a medical study, or could be companies or research subjects or applicants for a job, or anything that must make it past some selection process to be considered further. Survivorship bias can lead to overly optimistic beliefs because failures are ignore … "
I’ll bet that for every ‘happy’ stray animal there are/were 15 strays who died unpleasant deaths. (When you see that ‘happy stray,’ try also seeing those 15 ghosts, in their last painful moments, around him.) There will always be strays, and it is better that the strays are protected and ‘happy.’ But lets be careful not to inadvertently grow comfortable with Taiwan’s casual disregard and neglect of animals on the island.
It is sad to see a ‘happy stray,’ because many dogs had to die in order to leave a survivor.
There’s a pack of five quite big male dogs that strut their stuff around our place. They are all in great condition and I have seen them together (always the five of them) for a few years now. As mentioned above, they act territorially towards pet dogs and other strays and I’ve also seen them chasing cars, but they are afraid of humans and therefore no risk.
IMO a much better life then being shut up indoors all day, probably in a cage, and taken outside once or twice for a shit. Some people obviously do a better job than that, but sadly it seems to be the generally accepted practice.
Back when I was growing up in Taiwan, in the last century it was quite the norm for peoples dogs to be out and about like kids were. A lot of homes were shop houses where shops were on the bottom floor and the people lived upstairs on the second to the fourth floors. This was very common housing in the cities. Of course if you have kids, they run around on the streets and same if you had a cat or a dog. And the dogs and cats usually dont stray too far from the street. The kids stray a bit further. And sometimes a dog or cat gets lost or stolen or killed by traffic. But by and large a lot of pets were kept on the street but didnt venture far and were “owned” by someone.
I remember going to a mom and pop store (now nearly all gone cuz of the convenience stores) and they had a dog who was out and about and had just come home “with a friend” . And the boss was saying “oh yeah he comes and goes and brings friends home too”.
And this was the way a lot of people and animals lived.
As Taiwan got richer, people started to live in Apartments and animals were still being allowed to roam, but many were now kept indoors and taken out for walks. But there remained a portion of animals on the street whos “parents” lived in shop houses.
And of course there were street dogs. Dogs and cats that got lost and never found their way home
Nowadays a lot of people while not quite wanting to take a dog home willl share in their care.
At the cafe where I hung out a lot there were 4 street dogs. All of them were very well fed and never strayed far from this street (lest they encounter dog gangs while at other streets). And they were fed quite well. People pitched in to buy cans of dog food, and / or dry food. And there was even a shelter and fresh water.
So some dogs ended up doing pretty well. These four dogs , while not living the ten years of a house dog lived bout 5 or 6. Were never hungry or thirsty and had a bath once a month and were taken to the vet once or twice a year by people sharing in their care. And also had lots of people play with them even. They were street PETS not street PESTS.
So they lived half the life of a family dog and in a way they were poorer . They didnt always have a warm house in winter and didnt have the chance to sleeep long hours on a sofa. But many of them do well with all the freedom they get and the will and ability to live the life like a street kid.
Its not the preferred life but its better then being caught by a dog catcher and put to death after 2 weeks of not getting adopted.
[quote=“HooknSinker”]Perhaps the views on this thread reflect survivorship bias. From wikipedia:
"Survivorship bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that “survived” some process and ignoring those that didn’t. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. The survivors may literally be people, as in a medical study, or could be companies or research subjects or applicants for a job, or anything that must make it past some selection process to be considered further. Survivorship bias can lead to overly optimistic beliefs because failures are ignore … "
I’ll bet that for every ‘happy’ stray animal there are/were 15 strays who died unpleasant deaths. (When you see that ‘happy stray,’ try also seeing those 15 ghosts, in their last painful moments, around him.) There will always be strays, and it is better that the strays are protected and ‘happy.’ But lets be careful not to inadvertently grow comfortable with Taiwan’s casual disregard and neglect of animals on the island.
It is sad to see a ‘happy stray,’ because many dogs had to die in order to leave a survivor.[/quote]
They are animals, ones who have evolved over the last 15,000 years to live in or close to human communities. Some fare better than others in that regard.
It’s not the best thing for the animals out there, but considering other options, having some live as strays raises the overall wellbeing of the entire population. Plus, we need as many neutered animals as we can taking up available resources if we are to ever see a drop in stray numbers, which of course is the ultimate goal, if reached humanely.
The danger in which even the happiest of strays lives is painful. They are a heartbeat waway from awful death. I mean, in our neighborhood, we have several aixin mamas taking care of teh strays, but lately, in the blink of an eye, most of my precious are gone. One was run over by a car, three have simply dissappeared, one was sick and probably died before I could get her. Ther is a black kitty with an elastic around his neck I’ve been trying to get for months.
So basically in my alley there is only one cat left. She’s been there since I moved in, and she’s been spayed and all. Now she hangs more around my house, as I guess she’s feeling lonely, all her companions are gone. I am most tempted to get her inside, but I dunno how she will adapt after half a lifetime outside -my cats are indoors only, as there are many diseases outside. I am seriously considering tyaking her in after a checkup with the vet, I feed her daily anyway.
[quote=“HooknSinker”]Perhaps the views on this thread reflect survivorship bias. From wikipedia:
"Survivorship bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that “survived” some process and ignoring those that didn’t. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. The survivors may literally be people, as in a medical study, or could be companies or research subjects or applicants for a job, or anything that must make it past some selection process to be considered further. Survivorship bias can lead to overly optimistic beliefs because failures are ignore … "
I’ll bet that for every ‘happy’ stray animal there are/were 15 strays who died unpleasant deaths. (When you see that ‘happy stray,’ try also seeing those 15 ghosts, in their last painful moments, around him.) There will always be strays, and it is better that the strays are protected and ‘happy.’ But lets be careful not to inadvertently grow comfortable with Taiwan’s casual disregard and neglect of animals on the island.
It is sad to see a ‘happy stray,’ because many dogs had to die in order to leave a survivor.[/quote]
I know three of the dogs by sight and one in particular that I am close to for around three years. They have survived very well for the last three years that I have been going down there; yes they are having a damn good life so far. I am also not referring to death in my post at all. Death is something that I am not personally worried about for myself or stray dogs (sure the way of death is a factor too). What I am more concerned about is quality of life leading up to the deaths of animals or humans which is kind of the main point of the post. I am comparing a stray animal that is allowed to run around free in a pack to a dog that is rehomed and ends up on a chain or in a small cage or even small apartment for the rest of its life. perhaps I have weird views but for me I would rather have any life than one in captivity.
Yes as Stray dog says dogs evolved around human camps etc but they often did this by hanging around the the camp or just outside it fending off wolves, or barking at intruders warning cave man to get his club and crush the invading human skulls. They were not usually to my knowledge kept all dolled up with ribbons and fed pedigree chum! I am sure most of the posters give their dogs the best possible lives but is that mostly the case with re-homed strays in Taiwan? I’d be curious to know how many of these captured strays end up chained and caged when being given a “better” life. I kind of like what the ai shin mothers are doing; spaying, giving basic first aid when needed, re-releasing and feeding. Not bad at all but like Stray dog says it only works in some environments.
[quote=“Icon”]The danger in which even the happiest of strays lives is painful. They are a heartbeat waway from awful death. I mean, in our neighborhood, we have several aixin mamas taking care of teh strays, but lately, in the blink of an eye, most of my precious are gone. One was run over by a car, three have simply dissappeared, one was sick and probably died before I could get her. Ther is a black kitty with an elastic around his neck I’ve been trying to get for months.
So basically in my alley there is only one cat left. She’s been there since I moved in, and she’s been spayed and all. Now she hangs more around my house, as I guess she’s feeling lonely, all her companions are gone. I am most tempted to get her inside, but I dunno how she will adapt after half a lifetime outside -my cats are indoors only, as there are many diseases outside. I am seriously considering tyaking her in after a checkup with the vet, I feed her daily anyway.[/quote]
Get her checked out, take her in. If shes not wild. We had a wild cat we fed daily but was unapproachable.
I would rather be a stray and take my chances with life, then be locked in a cage or kept on a chain till the day I died.
There are several dogs around here that really really need to be let off the leash. Couple months back…I let two out of their cage…yeah…I don’t feel guilty about it one bit. They were sitting in their own feces without food or water… :fume:
There are two more that are locked in cages and never let out…time for another late night escape me thinks.
[quote=“SoulDragoN”]I would rather be a stray and take my chances with life, then be locked in a cage or kept on a chain till the day I died.
There are several dogs around here that really really need to be let off the leash. Couple months back…I let two out of their cage…yeah…I don’t feel guilty about it one bit. They were sitting in their own feces without food or water… :fume:
There are two more that are locked in cages and never let out…time for another late night escape me thinks. [/quote]
Are you sure they are never let out? If so nice job dude
yep…I agree that strays in that environment is much better off than dogs that get adopted and then just sit inside all day, or get passed on from one person to the next and then when they are ollld and nobody wants to have them, get thrown on the streets again. Being kept alive for a long period doesn’t always mean that you have a life.
I just had a crappy conversation with one of my foreign friends again.
I want a kitten, know how much they are?
No, I don’t buy animals, I usually scrape them off the street.
Yeah, we need more people like you…but do you know how much they are?
NO! Just remember its expensive to send them back to SA.
Oh, I’m not leaving any time soon.
Cool, so you’re going to stick around for another 15 years?
No way!!
[quote=“fenlander”][quote=“HooknSinker”]Perhaps the views on this thread reflect survivorship bias. From wikipedia:
"Survivorship bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that “survived” some process and ignoring those that didn’t. This can lead to false conclusions … It is sad to see a ‘happy stray,’ because many dogs had to die in order to leave a survivor.[/quote]
I know three of the dogs by sight and one in particular that I am close to for around three years. They have survived very well for the last three years that I have been going down there; yes they are having a damn good life so far. I am also not referring to death in my post at all …[/quote]
My point sailed right over your head. That or you’ve got it buried in some dark, hard-to-reach place. Regardless, more power to you …
Remember I told you guys about a cute white cat living close to exit 2 in Taipei Main Station? Well, I hadnm’y seen her in a while and was fearing teh worst when I discovered she’s been living in teh Sun Yat-sen house. Someone took her for TNR, too.
