[quote=“Maoman”][quote=“tomthorne”]The method in these schools seems to involve the western teacher speaking the target sentence in Chinese, kids repeat the sentence several times, then the teacher changes the sentence into English and the kids repeat the sentence several times. Parents think this method works, and pay accordingly high fees.
If teaching is important to you then teaching in this sort of school could create self-loathing over time. Hourly rate is between 800 and 1200NT an hour though.[/quote]
That isn’t it at all! Read the link and you’ll have a better idea.[/quote]
It’s not at all like that; the students do about as much speaking as the teacher does, and they generally repeat patterns rather than sentences, to help them to internalize the syntax, often by asking and answering each others’ questions. There is usually homework focusing on correct sentence structure and self-expression, and this is graded by the teacher him/herself. It tends to be pretty intensive stuff, and the kids (and teachers) are held responsible for the kids’ progress. Students are expected to do some preview/review at home, as well. From my experience, games do not make up the bulk of the curriculum, though true learning games are sometimes played. Teachers actually teach the classes, which are organized and well-run, rather than the “crowd control” philosophy which seems to dominate in many buxibans; the parents are sending their children to these schools to learn the language.
To the OP: I’m not trying to sound rude or whatever, but a lot of HFRBs are looking for teachers with years of experience and the ability to explain things in Chinese, if necessary. I doubt that the “few months” that you’ve spent here would qualify you for either, as you won’t be using your Chinese to order rice or ask what time the next movie is playing; you’ll be explaining sentence structures and grammar and phonics patterns, as well as vocabulary the students don’t know.
I’m not going to have a go at anyone. It’s a highly effective business model and good luck to anyone who makes a business work in these difficult times.
My best friend here in Taiwan used to talk all the time about these places. He went for an interview with one, thinking his Chinese was up to scratch, and then the interviewer asked him to explain a particular verb tense (I can’t remember which one) in Chinese. Obviously, he didn’t get the job.
He said, from what he observed, that the place was indeed hardcore. The teacher actually taught, rather than played games. The school was really strict as well, and kids who weren’t up to scratch did indeed get kicked out or held down. He said the kids had a much higher level of English than other kids of similar ages who had been studying English for a similar period of time. He also said there was a lot of work for the teacher and that there’s a kind of training/observational period that can take several months before you’re fully on your own and earning the higher pay rate.
I think he looked at Courtland, but it may have been another.
I see, thanks for the insight, it’s good to know what I’ll be up against.
To Nemesis: I have been studying Chinese for much longer than the three months I have been here In Taiwan. I can ask for more rice and the time of the next movie in my sleep. I am of course, not fluent, and worry as to whether or not I will be able to explain the intricacies of grammar tenses. I’d definitely love to give it a shot though :-), as I’m sure I could atleast stumble through an explanation, even if the chinese I’d use wasn’t perfect.
It’s the years of teaching experience that may get me in the end though, as I do lack that.
[quote=“Maoman”][quote=“tomthorne”]The method in these schools seems to involve the western teacher speaking the target sentence in Chinese, kids repeat the sentence several times, then the teacher changes the sentence into English and the kids repeat the sentence several times. Parents think this method works, and pay accordingly high fees.
If teaching is important to you then teaching in this sort of school could create self-loathing over time. Hourly rate is between 800 and 1200NT an hour though.[/quote]
That isn’t it at all! Read the link and you’ll have a better idea.[/quote]
But you didn’t mention that David of MoDa Wei started at Mike Robert’s school. So did Rich, Andrew, etc.
This post is obviously dead but since I ran into it I guess I might as well comment that this is nonsense. I studied (audited) French and Russian at UC Berkeley and in the beginner classes there was extremely little use of English- only once in a blue moon to explain a complicated word that a drawing or a gesture couldn’t or to make an announcement.
Another reason this is silly- most language courses at American universities are taught by graduate students. Not sure if it’s true for Harvard and private schools but even the best public schools like Berkeley or UCLA give grad students these classes to teach as part of their financial package. Often, these students hate teaching language and suck badly at it. So language instruction at top schools is often worse than at community colleges for example.
[quote=“Xiaoma”]There’s one in Taoyuan called Easy. I used to work at a great one in Linkou called First Step.
To all of the people who feel that there should be no Chinese whatsoever in the classroom, ask yourself this: Why is it that the foreign language classes at all the best universities in the world make use of the students’ first language in the classroom? Are all of them unenlightened, or is it possible that “100% English” classrooms are pushed in Taiwan due to business reasons?[/quote]
2-year-old post, I know. But the school mentioned in Taoyuan has been closed for some time now, FYI.
[quote=“Xiaoma”]There’s one in Taoyuan called Easy. I used to work at a great one in Linkou called First Step.
To all of the people who feel that there should be no Chinese whatsoever in the classroom, ask yourself this: Why is it that the foreign language classes at all the best universities in the world make use of the students’ first language in the classroom? Are all of them unenlightened, or is it possible that “100% English” classrooms are pushed in Taiwan due to business reasons?[/quote]
While I agree with you completely about L1 in the language classroom, the argument that it is a good thing because, “all the best universities in the world make use of the students’ first language in the classroom” is quite strange. Almost certaily what you mean by those “best universities” are American universities. The function of classes held in foreign language departments at American universities is not just to train language proficiency. But more significantly, given the success rate of foreign language education in the USA, why would anyone think this was a good thing?
If we are going to speak generally about the methods used in buxibans such as the now-defunct EZ, I’d say their approach was first and foremost a gimmick-- there was very little educational about it. Basically, it utilized a Chinese-speaking foreign teacher to mimic high-pressure, local teaching methods. Teachers were encouraged to be strict, even severe with students. No games, songs or free talks in class-- only teacher-directed grammar drills. When the teacher pointed at a student, s/he would immediately stand and recite as directed. Any errors were “corrected” by the teacher coming over and screaming in the kid’s face (in Chinese, of course), “What is it?! What is it?! You have double homework tonight!” Teachers were criticized if they were not severe enough/ did not yell loudly enough.
I think this type of teaching appealed to a certain segment of the population who believe in a no pain, no gain approach to education as well as those who were wowed by a foreigner speaking Chinese. I believe the general trend is that these schools are falling out of favour because fewer parents believe in such militant methods; as well, it must have become aparent that these schools weren’t very effective-- producing students with substandard English skills, an inflated fear of making mistakes in their spoken English, as well as a dislike of English generally.
The universities that are considered the best in the world are hardly ever ranked by how well they educate students. They are usually ranked by the SAT scores, grades, of students and how much work is published by faculty. Most rankings of universities don’t take too much account of whether students improve or rating the teaching methods/skills being used at those universities.
I have seen schools like these and all I can say is that he parents get way more bang for their buck than at the typical clown class game playing schools. The foreign teachers are far more professional and prepared, and really take the job seriously. Knowing the native language of the students lets the teachers fix common mistakes the second they are made. While strict, at least the kids go home with something to practice. Homework being done properly is strictly enforced. Think about it, if someone just started speaking Russian to you on day one would you get it or would you need some coaching in your own language to understand the logic, grammar ect?
I respectfully disagree. I have no doubt that the teachers are hard-working, report to work on time and perform their duties. I just don’t agree with your definition of what constitutes “professionalism” in the context of primary-age kids. Sorry, if you are trying to teach young children a language and you aren’t using at least some well-planned games, activities and songs-- and instead you are using boot-camp, yell and scream techniques-- then you aren’t teaching language in a “professional” way.
Yes, possibly. But there’s way too much emphasis on grammatical precision already here. Similarly, there’s also too much emphasis on translation and memorization of meaningless vocab lists as ways to learn foreign languages.
You’re assuming homework isn’t being assigned or completed anywhere but in an HFRB. Completely untrue. I’ve worked in countless different buxibans and never found one where homework wasn’t assigned.
You just described how I learned Chinese. When I first arrived here, people would do exactly that: start speaking Chinese to me and one day I got it. And when I began my Chinese classes, luckily, the teacher could not speak English well. So, no, I did not receive any “coaching” in my own language “to understand the logic, grammar etc.”
I never said it’s a perfect system, just better than most in Taiwan. The kids at these schools to tend to speak robotically, but when it comes to test time in junior hs, or GEPT they clean up. This is what many parents care about.
I respectfully disagree. I have no doubt that the teachers are hard-working, report to work on time and perform their duties. I just don’t agree with your definition of what constitutes “professionalism” in the context of primary-age kids. Sorry, if you are trying to teach young children a language and you aren’t using at least some well-planned games, activities and songs-- and instead you are using boot-camp, yell and scream techniques-- then you aren’t teaching language in a “professional” way. [/quote]
I don’t think that swervetech was saying not to play games. In general, teachers at HFRBs do more preparation for lessons and spend less time “filling” the lessons with games that serve no purpose. I’m sure a quick-paced, lesson-relevant game here and there wouldn’t be frowned upon. There are higher expectations, but since the students are exposed to these from the very beginning, it’s not a shock or something that they resent. It’s a challenge, and if they’ve done their review and prep, most are game for it. As a rule, good teachers don’t need to yell or scream at students, but to expect a quick response to a question covered in class is not unreasonable.
Yes, possibly. But there’s way too much emphasis on grammatical precision already here. Similarly, there’s also too much emphasis on translation and memorization of meaningless vocab lists as ways to learn foreign languages. [/quote]
If the vocabulary is not meaningless and is learned in context, it gives the students yet another means to successfully express themselves. The bulk of classes are not taught in Chinese, but it helps to know Chinese syntax and to be able to contrast and pre-emptively correct errors. It also saves a lot of time in certain situations to offer a quick translation of a term rather than to spend half an hour trying to explain it. Then you can focus on interaction with the students.
You’re assuming homework isn’t being assigned or completed anywhere but in an HFRB. Completely untrue. I’ve worked in countless different buxibans and never found one where homework wasn’t assigned.
[/quote]
True, but was the homework the kind that actually helped the students to master a concept or the kind that showed the parents, “Look! Homework! We’re doing a good job!” I’ve worked in buxibans in which the homework was nothing but a show to prove that the schools assign homework. I’ve also worked in buxibans with relevant homework that tests the child’s knowledge and reinforces concepts taught in class.
You just described how I learned Chinese. When I first arrived here, people would do exactly that: start speaking Chinese to me and one day I got it. And when I began my Chinese classes, luckily, the teacher could not speak English well. So, no, I did not receive any “coaching” in my own language “to understand the logic, grammar etc.”[/quote]
You’re right, but with a gradual cline of L1 to L2 usage by the teacher, students tend to respond and learn faster. This is not a true immersion situation in which the student will be exposed to the language on a daily basis outside of class; often class time (and homework/reinforcement time) is their only exposure to English. Using L1 in the classroom also helps the teacher to deal independently with the students/parents (without having to go through a “translator/ambassador” and to make expectations and responsibilities clear from the very beginning.
It’s not a perfect system by any stretch of anyone’s imagination, but it seems to be one of the better ones out there. Compare the results after three years at your average HFRB and three years at Happy Crappy Engrish School and you’ll know what I’m talking about.
[quote=“nemesis”]
I don’t think that swervetech was saying not to play games. In general, teachers at HFRBs do more preparation for lessons and spend less time “filling” the lessons with games that serve no purpose.[/quote]
Prove this. Sorry, but games do not merely “fill” time in a language class. And, also consider, games are not the only way “fill time” in a class. One could argue that grammar drills are a kind of filler.
They would have in the schools I’ve experienced.
Higher expecatations of what exactly? And in comparison to where exactly? Provide evidence.
It was absolutely mandatory at EZ and the off-shoots of it.
Actually, yes they were.
As for your second point, yes I am aware of what Chinese knowedge can bring to the table (being more than competent in the language myself). However, there is a limit to the benefit that this tendency to want to “correct errors” can bring to the student.
Yes, but you also build up a dependency. In real language situations, translation isn’t available. It may be quicker, but it robs the student of the ability to figure things out for themselves an learn new words by using the language ability they already possess. Translation is lazy and something that is over-emphasized already here.
A good part of your interaction should be your explanations.
An irrelevent point. You said so yourself. Some buxibans give useful homework, others don’t. You are going to have to prove that the HFRB schools give better homework. And, again, you are going to state clearly just what schools these HFRB schools outperform.
Do they?
Precisely because their English exposure time is so limited, the foreign teacher should not be wasting it needlessly speaking Chinese. And, yes, my Chinese ability is more than sufficient for dealing with parents (not class time btw).
I don’t agree. The HFRB schools I have seen have been soul destroying places that seem to serve no useful purposes. Compare the results? You have data to share? Please do.
I think if these places were really so successful, they’d be the dominant choice, rather than one that is dying out. I’ve observed closely the students in these places over a period of years. My ex worked in one for several years and a friend runs one as well. Additionally, used to work in the junior highs in my area, teaching the “elite” classes, classes that students from around the county have to score above a certain level in English in order to attend. I asked what buxibans these students attended and I receied a variety of school names in response. Strangely, none were of the hfrbs in my area.
Read the link and you’ll have a better idea.[/quote]
Well, okay then. That’s different… 
Obviously, he didn’t get the job.