Hartford Mini125 - fuel injection unreliable!

Life Cars & Motorcycles
1

Hi All,

Last year I bought a new Hartford Mini125cc motorbike for my wife, NT$64,000. I bought this because it was the only motorbike I could find with manual gears in a lightweight size that she could drive. My own bike, a Sanyang 150cc “Wild Wolf,” is too tall and heavy for her.

Another thing she likes about the Hartford is that it’s “cutesy:”

OK, so here’s the problem. Last night, she started up the bike at her school. It started easily. She drove out the gate, then realized she was the last one leaving, so she stopped, shut the bike off, closed the gate, the tried to start the bike again. It wouldn’t start. I was called. I couldn’t get it started either. First I tried the electric starter, which cranked fine (battery fully charged) - but no joy. I know from experience with my own bike (which has a carburetor), that if it’s reluctant to start with the electric starter, it will always respond if I kick start it. I tried that with the Hartford - again, no luck. OK, the one sure way to start a manual transmission bike is to push start (preferably by rolling down a hill). There was a nearby hill, so I pushed the bike up it, hopped on and got it up to speed, popped it in gear (with key turned on of course) - no luck. Nothing would make it start.

We parked the bike at the school and left it overnight. Next morning I show up, put the key in the ignition, hit the start button and it starts instantly. Just to make sure I let it run a minute, shut it off, restarted - no problem.

So WTF happened the previous night? I’ve never seen anything like this in a bike (like my own) that has a carburetor. True, if I leave my bike undriven for a few weeks, it will be hard to start. But her bike had started and ran fine for a minute. She shut it off just long enough to close the gate, but it wouldn’t restart even though the engine was already somewhat warm.

I am blaming the fuel injection. I suppose there is a slim possibility of an electrical glitch that results in no spark (seems far-fetched seeing how it runs perfectly IF it starts - a misfiring spark would deliver crap performance).

One other thing - the bike has poor gas mileage. It has been that way right from the beginning, though until now it never failed to start.

I have absolutely no idea how to fix this, and the warranty just ended. I can’t even duplicate the problem to show a mechanic - it will happen when it happens. I can’t have an unreliable bike for my wife - I’d hate to see her get stuck way out in the boondocks just beyond cell phone range (we have a few such places - this is Taitung).

Any suggestions? Just dump the damn bike and buy a used one with a carburetor? I don’t suppose there’s any hope of replacing the fuel injection with a carburetor (never mind the legalities, is it even technically feasible?)

I’d sure love to ring the necks of the legislators who wrote the bill banning the manufacture and sale of new carburetor-type bikes.

2

Well i for one dont like hartford bikes, they are mainland chinese bikes locally assembled in taichung.
Fuel injection on scooters and small CC bikes here is pretty poor too, they use very basic ECU’s which from time to time just dont fuel correctly, probably why you are getting poor gas milage.

I wouldnt like to take a guess to whats causing the problem, i would say its electrical for sure though.

If possible get rid of it and get a carb fueled bike, so much easier to fix.

3

It must be possible to retrofit a carb, especially since there is a carb version of this bike to use as a pattern. Parts are still, of course, readily available. It’d be technically illegal, but I can’t see you getting caught, though you might have to restore the FI to pass inspections.

Its likely to be a bit of a hassle to do, though, and it might be easier to just flog it and get a carbed replacement, as sbl suggests.

4

I want to thank both SBL and ELG for their replies.

I hadn’t realized that Hartford was assembled from Chinese parts. That alone may explain why the EFI is unreliable. Had I known this was Chinese, I wouldn’t have bought it.

There are other things about the bike I don’t like, especially the electronic speedometer-odometer-fuel gauge assembly. My Sanyang Wild Wolf is all mechanical, and that stuff just never fails.

Another thing about the Hartford is that you must hold in the clutch to start it. That’s a “safety feature” I don’t need. First thing I’m doing Monday will be to get that switch bypassed, as just possibly that could be the culprit. If the switch was stuck in the open position, the bike wouldn’t be able to start.

But I’m still pretty sure that the fuel injection is at fault. I recall an incident in 1980 when a woman I knew bought a new Audi which boasted EFI. It was so unreliable that she dared not drive it out of town. She just never knew when the car would start and when it wouldn’t, but if it started then it would run fine. Audi replaced the system numerous times, but to no avail. A few years earlier my father had a similar frustrating experience with a Mercedes he owned - he eventually sold and replaced it with a carburetor-style Toyota.

[quote=“Ducked”]It must be possible to retrofit a carb, especially since there is a carb version of this bike to use as a pattern. Parts are still, of course, readily available. It’d be technically illegal, but I can’t see you getting caught, though you might have to restore the FI to pass inspections.
[/quote]

I will look into this on Monday. If it could be done at reasonable cost, I may go for it. I do worry about those inspections though. Of course, the inspector might not even notice, unless he looks very closely.

It’s a bummer that there is not a small light carburetor bike on the market other than scooters. Though perhaps an earlier version of the Sanyang Wowow would do.

5

[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”]I want to thank both SBL and ELG for their replies.

I hadn’t realized that Hartford was assembled from Chinese parts. That alone may explain why the EFI is unreliable. Had I known this was Chinese, I wouldn’t have bought it.

[quote=“Ducked”]It must be possible to retrofit a carb, especially since there is a carb version of this bike to use as a pattern. Parts are still, of course, readily available. It’d be technically illegal, but I can’t see you getting caught, though you might have to restore the FI to pass inspections.
[/quote]

It’s a bummer that there is not a small light carburetor bike on the market other than scooters. Though perhaps an earlier version of the Sanyang Wowow would do.[/quote]

I didn’t know they were ChinaTin either, but they don’t have a generally bad rep, at least pre-EFI.

My understanding is you can’t buy any new 2-wheeler that isn’t EFI now, including scooters. However, I THINK that small-wheeled Hartford model pre-dates mandatory EFI, so unless they were all made EFI in anticipation of the carb ban, there should be some used carbed ones around.

I dunno what other differences it has apart from the wheels. If that is all, it MIGHT be possible to produce a lowered version of a carbed bike (low-carb? Oh well, please yourselves). Could be the axle length is greater, though, since the tyres are wider, and it could easily get to be a non-trivial conversion job.

Another non-trivial alternative could be to fit an aftermarket “quality” EFI/ECU unit, perhaps an “open” one (eg/ie Megasquirt/Microsquirt) that you could program yourself. A quick Google, however, suggests that’d have to be something you were really into learning about, rather than just a “quick fix” means to an end.

6

I will look into this on Monday. If it could be done at reasonable cost, I may go for it. I do worry about those inspections though. Of course, the inspector might not even notice, unless he looks very closely.

It’s a bummer that there is not a small light carburetor bike on the market other than scooters. Though perhaps an earlier version of the Sanyang Wowow would do.[/quote]

I wouldn’t. Its not that the inspection crew won’t notice the carb, its that the inspection tests emissions and that fitting a carb will throw them off, causing it to fail. Unless you know a testing centre that’s willing to pass it for you then you may have trouble. Always use exterior testing centres however as many of them will re-calibrate their sniffers in order to pass as many vehicles as they can. They get a bad rep for failing too many people you see. :s

In this order:
Check your ignition circuit as well as your fuel circuit. Keep a spare spark plug on you and plug it into the plug lead next time the bike fails to start. Touch the ground (outer) end of the plug to a part of the frame or engine body whilst its cranking and check for a spark. If you don’t have a spark then check your ignition barrel as well as your coil and high tension lead.
If you have a spark then try using a leaf sprayer (Edit: atomiser) with some petrol in it and spray lightly and directly into the air intake whilst cranking. You will likely need to disconnect the air pipe from the filter box assembly to do this properly. If it fires and runs, even roughly and for a short time then you have an issue with your injection system.

I wouldn’t necessarily recommend changing the bike based on this fault alone. It seems like a nuisance, but not something incurable. If you can carry both a spare plug, screwdriver for your airbox and petrol in a leaf sprayer with you until you can encounter a failure to start, then you can likely figure out at least which system to deal with by yourself. Once you know which system is the problem, then you should be sorted.

BTW I hope you have already at least changed your fuel filter, checked your air filter and box for loose debris or obviously faulty components. Also check the fuel tank for any signs of water. If you are unsure, then drain the tank into a clear container and let it settle for a few minutes. Any water evidence will be found in a clear layer at the bottom of the container.

7

These are your wifes wheels, right?

I’m not married, and I suppose it depends on the nature of your relationship, but I don’t think I’d encourage my wife to mess around with a plant mister full of petrol, next to an ignition system.

They can leak, plus it might give her ideas. For example, do you smoke? Is she trying to get you to stop?

I’d probably do it myself, but I’d be pretty cautious, like Mr S normally is. :s

8

Just had to start my car after not using it for a while due to a broken exhaust.

It wouldn’t.

I seem to have accidentally disabled my choke as collateral damage to fixing a high-idle problem a while ago. Don’t really understand it, and havn’t needed the choke until now, so havn’t made a big effort to fix it.

I considered Mr S’s flammenwerfer fing, (described above) but its a bit of a hassle, and it’d be embarrassing to set fire to my car, somebody else’s, or myself, in the university car park.

Having the car up on axle stands sometimes is weird enough for the locals, I think.

Then I remembered the aerosol trick, which I havn’t used for ages. After CFC’s were banned, many aerosols went to [strike]methane[/strike] volatile hydrocarbons such as butane or propane as a propellant gas. Since they are inflammable, and greenhouse gasses, I think many may now have moved to CO2, so I wasn’t sure it would work nowadays.

Puff Dino 191 (like WD40) sprayed past a cigarette lighter gave a satisfying 3 foot flame. Few puffs down the carb throat and the car started fine. I’ve had that can for a year or so, though.

I think it’ll work with any [strike]methane[/strike] volatile hydrocarbon propellant aerosol, but of course you need the payload to also be engine-friendly, so paint or shaving foam are probably contra-indicated. Lighter fuel or a gas blowtorch (unlit, of course) have no separate payload and would probably work better.

I think this is perhaps safer, and more conveniently packaged, than the petrol plant sprayer trick above.

9

CheezWiz is good for cylinders, I hear.

Or you can go the nitrous oxide injection route, with Whipped Cream cans.

10

[quote=“urodacus”]CheezWiz is good for cylinders, I hear.

Or you can go the nitrous oxide injection route, with Whipped Cream cans.[/quote]

Never heard of CheezWiz, and now I have, I rather wish I hadn’t.

I imagine this’ll be American “food” technology so even if its BAD for cylinders, it still probably makes a better upper cylinder lubricant than it does a food.

Nitrous oxide is no good in this application. Whats wanted is a richer mixture, and NOX would effectively lean it.

11

I started this thread nearly a year ago, and thought I’d give an update. And I also have a question.

First off, because this POS Hartford was so unreliable, my wife stopped driving it, so it sat for a few months without being started. Yeah, I know, you shouldn’t leave a bike unstarted for more than a week. But anyway, I decided I had to do something with this bike, so I started it. And even after maybe 3 months of sitting, it did start easily - but wouldn’t run. It would idle OK, but would crap out at about 2000 RPMs.

I attributed this to clogged/dirty fuel injectors. So I drained the gas, put in new gas, added some of that “fuel injector cleaner” fluid to the new gas, and…it didn’t work. Same as before. No improvement even after a few days of playing around with it.

So, I put it into the back of my pickup truck, and delivered it to the Hartford dealer. Explained the situation about 3 months of no use, and my attempt at fixing it. Left the bike with him overnight. Next day he calls, says it’s fixed. I go down there, ask him what he did. He said he just had to charge the battery. You see, the electronic fuel injection system only works with a fully-charged battery. At least, that’s what he said.

I asked him how much he’d offer me for the bike. Wound up selling it for $NT38,000. I originally paid NT$64,000 and owned it for a little over a year. I got screwed big time. But pity the poor fool who buys it.

I did ask the mechanic if it was possible to fit the bike with a carburetor. He said it wasn’t, mainly because when Hartford when from carbs to EFI, they changed a whole lot of other stuff. The whole speedo/tach assembly went electronic, with sensors all over the place. Disconnect the fuel injection and you’ll be seeing flashing Christmas lights constantly. Not even certain it would start, since the electronic ignition also communicates with the electronic fuel injection system. Or so he said.

So much for history, now the question. I still would like to get my wife a new bike. Since it’s for her, I guess it will be a scooter, but I’d consider one of those Sanyang Wowow things (100cc bike with large wheels). I want one with a carburetor. EFI sucks. But of course, you can’t buy a NEW bike now with a carb. I will consider buying a used one, if I can find one in good condition. But I’m wondering - are there any new scooters that you CAN fit it with a carb (after ripping off the fuel injection system) without the thing “going crazy” (flashing warning lights, etc)? Yes, I know it will fail the CO2 emissions test if I do that, though I have a plan for that eventuality should it occur.

12

I’d guess (and I do mean guess) that if you REALLY wanted to it must be possible to retrofit. If the system is “integrated”(slightly surprised they’re already that sophisticated, but maybe its cheaper that way) and resents surgery, you could junk the whole system and replace in its entirety with retrotech.

BUT that’d be a bit nuts, for various obvious reasons.

Much better to get an existing retro system and fettle it as necessary.

EDIT: Got a creepy deja vu feeling so I looked back and that’s pretty much exactly what I said last time. Sorry. ENDEDIT

13

I realize many folks have an aversion to many things electrical, but we’re in 2011. EFI has been on cars for a good 30 odd years, on bikes for maybe 20 and is now dead nuts reliable, and far better than carbs in so many aspects from drivability to power to ease of diagnosis and tuning.

While Taiwanese and especially Chinese designed EFIs represent the early days of bike EFI in the 90s where there it got worse before it got better, the Japanese and Italians have been at it for awhile. Perhaps a good Yamaha might be a good bet? The only other issue is because EFI on bikes is new here, many mechanics haven’t been trained on know how to diagnose the problems, so definitely finding a good mechanic will help.

A flaky battery or relay for the engine management computer (often called DME relay or EFI relay), or a faulty kill/neutral switch wiring can cause some of the problems you were seeing with the Hartford. Granted fuel injection without a good on-board diagnostics (OBD) system requires some specialized tools such as an oscilloscope to fully diagnose, you can track down nearly all of them with a multimeter. With a good OBD, all you need is to know how to get it to flash the codes to you (for older OBD) or to have a basic OBD2 code reader (or adapter into an iPhone or laptop). And it will almost always literally tell you what’s wrong.

A single cylinder would be straight forward though, even without OBD. If the ignition turns the bike on and you hear the fuel pump running, first check for fuel and spark. If neither, check your wiring harness for kill switch, neutral switch and or DME relay (which you can check off the bike). If no spark, check the crank and or cam sensor. If no fuel, check the pump loop and injector (just simply pull it out, point it in a container and crank the bike). If it runs, but like junk, check your MAP/MAF sensor or throttle position sensor. That’s pretty much it.

Poking around with a multimeter may seem more complicated than diagnosing a carb, but sensors easy to get to and replace. With an OBD, it’s even simpler.