Harvesting Organs in China: the Preparation for Sujiatun

Notice that there is no discussion about China’s 5,000-year history of gulags and prisoner abuse here, but just another advert for the Falungong, which is a political movement dressed as a “religion”. Suddenly, in 2001, the Chinese started to abuse prisoners and execute poor old Yogic Flyers out of a new-found sheer badness.

And so we get the wide-eyed hippies with Andy Warhol pictures of Chairman Mao in the living room coming out in sympathy for the poor old FLGers in China who are suddenly being singled out for abuse.

You do have to wonder at it all.

Let’s have a discussion then on organ harvesting in China. I challenge you to do it without mentioning the FLG once. I wrote a dissertation on the gulag system in China in 1994, well before FLG or most fools in the West who are into this hand-wringing childish nonsense had ever heard the term “laogai”.

Let’s take it to the bridge Mr Sanctimonious Flying Man Hippie Fool.


I think we can safe guarantee that pretty much nobody wants a serious discussion on FLG on this forum. Too many wackos have spoiled it for you, I’m afraid.[/quote]

I am fraid You are wrong.[/quote]

Hi Jula, I noticed you quoted me. I guess I meant ‘most older posters’. The discussion on FLG on forumosa has been completely circular for years. Search some older posts, and you’ll see that nothing constructive or new has been said because most posters are repelled by a lot of the viewpoints espoused by FLG (see Lizi’s posts). It’s sad because it detracts from the issue of prisoner abuse in China. However, I did not mean to be rude or flippant.

Lord Lucan knows a lot about this stuff, do a search on some of his older posts on FLG. Sam Vimes also has some interesting stuff to say.

Of course, new posters may have different perspectives or information from what has been said before, and we’d all like to hear them. Nobody likes to think of forced organ harvesting.

Thank you for the capital, I’m not flying yet, though.

[quote=“Lord Lucan”] Let’s have a discussion then on organ harvesting in China. I challenge you to do it without mentioning the FLG once. I wrote a dissertation on the gulag system in China in 1994, well before FLG or most fools in the West who are into this hand-wringing childish nonsense had ever heard the term “laogai”.

Let’s take it to the bridge Mr Sanctimonious Flying Man Hippie Fool.[/quote]

Damned right, and why aren’t we hearing of the persecution and body part farming of the Hui minority in Xinjiang, etc, etc ad nauseum? What about the daily humility and abuse of some 10% of China’s population whose lives have worsened as the economy picked up? The beating and abuse of workers in Taiwanese and HK Chinese owned factories, etc . . . where do you want to stop? Or should that be, where do you want to start?

Is it cos the FLG can fly that their organs are so much more desirable and therefore a cause celebre?

Still, adopting a broader view, things are very much on the improve in China. Sorry if the FLG happened to get caught in the historical craw. but there are some very real and recent precedents as to why this organsiation is under close scrutiny.

Maybe you haven’t heard of Jesus’ brother, Hong Xiuquan? He and his loons trashed half the country . . . The White Lotus rebellions one and two, or the Yellow Turban rebellion? Hui, Pathay, etc, etc.


Did you know that FLG is also a “religious” movement?

…bringing one of the last Communist strong-holds to the brink of collapse… denunciation and condemnation of the CCP, as its tenous grip on the Chinese people dissolves…

[quote=“The Political Wing of the FLG”]The demise of the Chinese Communist Party is only a matter of time.

By systematically presenting the deeds and nature of the CCP, the Nine Commentaries have opened the hearts and minds of Chinese people and Westerners alike, beginning the process of freeing them from the oppression and falsehoods the CCP has depended on for so long.

The communist movement is destined to fail since it violates the law of the universe and runs counter to heaven. Such an anti-universe force will surely be punished by the heaven’s will and divine spirits.

And so on and so forth ad absurdum.

So this is nothing more or less than a political movement which has as its stated aim the overthrow of the Chinese Communist Party. Plain and simple.

So why the need for the religion cover story? Therein lies the real motivation behind the FLG, and all pseudo-religious cults.

Well, if you want to discuss that then go ahead. Lizhi made a post regarding recent news or rumours that Falun Gong practitioners are victims of organ harvesting in China, a view that has since been reinforced through more investigation. She is entitled to post what she wants, as long as it is according to formosa policy. I would enjoy seeing a discussion on “China’s 5,000-year history of gulags and prisoner abuse”, as it is something I really know little about.

It’s obvious that you have something personally against Falun Gong, but actually know little about it. The persecution started in 1999, not 2001. And as I said in an earier post, the idea of Falun Gong practitioners resembling “yogic flyers” is completely groundless. Also, no one’s saying that this is the only problem in China, or that they are the only group subject to persecution. I’m well aware of and incredibly sympathetic towards the other groups under the CCP’s fist, but I chose my battles and focus on Falun Gong.

As I said above, you can go right ahead. There’s no need to challenge me, I’ll be upfront with you, what I know about most is the persecution of Falun Gong. So I would have a hard time not mentioning it, but why set a rigid rule like this? If it is relevent, then why not mention it? Why purposefully avoid it simply because you’re annoyed or tired of hearing about it? If you want to talk about organ harvesting as a whole starting with groups aside from Falun Gong, or not being group specific, then I think that’s fine. But if Falun Gong practitioners really are some of the main victims of this, and a lot of the information available on this relates to Falun Gong practitioners, then I don’t see how it could really be a complete discussion without mentioning them. However, if you can really cover the topic well without mentioning Falun Gong or are content with only talking about a portion of it, then I really see no problem with that. (notice the IFs. I’m not saying that’s how it is. I’m addressing your challenge hypothetically)

Sticks and stones… I’m not you’re enemy, and we’re not 8 years old. There’s no need for name calling.

Ya, actually I’ve read quite a bit about them, and have even writen papers on them. And I’ll say that if you you’re suggesting that Falun Gong resembles the Taiping Rebillion, then you’re way off the mark. The big differences are that the Taiping rebillion had political motives from the start and the followers actually engaged in battle, while Falun Gong had nothing to do with the government until they became the subject of persecution, and amidst this practitioners have only reacted through peaceful means and have never had any intention in taking power. You’d do a lot better comparing it to the Korean Tonghak rebellion of the late 19th century, which only became political after it was suppressed, and was basically pushed to the limit by the government before taking measures against them.

You’re quoting the Epoch Times, not Falun Gong. That paper may have been set up by practitioners, and be largely run by practitioners, but it doesn’t speak for Falun Gong. The opinions expressed in the paper, although sometimes influenced by Falun Gong belief, are those of the paper or the individual writers themselves. There is no “political wing of the FLG”. You are completely groundless saying that Falun Gong is “nothing more than a political movement”. It is absolutely a spiritual discipline, and by suggesting otherwise you are ignoring the volumes of teachings that are absolutely core to the practice. There is nothing inherently political in Falun Gong belief, but we are victims of severe persecution in Mainland China, and rather than quietly excepting persecution, we do something about it and proactively expose the regime that persecutes us. Go ahead and look at anything taught in Falun Gong before 1999, there is very little that criticises the government or anything in particular that would incite dissent. Instead, you might find a couple of articles addressing the importance of not getting involved in politics.

I’d suggest that if you want to have your “no Falun Gong allowed” discussion about organ harvesting in China, that you start a new topic for it. I’d like to leave this open for people to respond to the issues that have been addressed here.

I apologise for the “Hippy Fool” jibe which was childish, even for me.

There is one question I would ask though: Why was Falungong, this harmless breathing exercise regime, chosen by the CCP as the greatest evil of all time? As you say, it had no political element to it at all and is comparable to the activities of the people I see every day organising Tai Qi and dancing meetings, so why the animosity from our beloved leaders?

How many FLG people did you speak to in China back in the 1990s? The ones I met were in Shanghai, but they did manage to fleece my wife’s aunt of her savings before the family rescued her from their clutches. There are after all only so many pseudo-religious tracts you can buy. They might have been the Fake FLG, of course, because the real ones would never do that. I was astonished though at the gullibility of the Chinese, even given their penchant for cults, but years later when I saw even more gullible foreigners protesting in New York and so on about what was happening in a country they would have difficulty placing on a map I saw the man’s genius. Of course! The sort of sob story foreigners love, happening in a Nasty Evil Country, and bound to be taken up by the powerful Taiwan lobby.

I would tend to agree that it didn’t have the same political element then as it does now (if indeed it still exists in China), it was more a money-making cult back then, led by a sheer genius (if only I had thought of that groaned 1.2bn Chinese people) who lives a life of luxury in New York.

Funny now that Li Hongzhi has retired to laugh his bollocks off in his huge Manhattan apartment you never hear a peep about the FLG in China or elsewhere…

Instead of getting our knickers in a twist we should be pooling resources to start our own retirement cult. You would have to be looking at North Korea for example, which will be ripe for a personality cult when Kim pops his clogs.

On April 25, 1999 thousands of Falun Gong followers staged a sit-in in the Zhongnanhai area of Beijing where top CCP leaders live and work. This protest got quite a lot of publicity around the world. Because such large protests are unheard of in mainland China and because it was done in a very sensitive place and shortly before the 10 year Tiananmen protest anniversay, this was pretty much like whacking a beehive with a baseball bat. Within months the CCP had started an intensive crack down on Falun Gong.

Your question about why the CCP chose to single out Falun Gong is one that there is no definite answer for. It’s basically everyone’s best guess. I’ll tell you how I see it. Jlick is partly right with referring to the April 25th appeal, but that’s not the whole picture. When Falun Gong was first being spread in the early 90’s it was registered with a government qigong organization, which helped organize seminars and more or less kept an eye on it. I believe most qigongs were under this organization at that time. However, in 1994 or 95, Falun Gong withdrew from the organization, as it was supposedly trying to make money from Falun Gong’s success and also exert influence on it. This meant that the government lost any control they had over it. Because Falun Gong’s organization is very loose, with no real hierarchy, except for there being one teacher and everyone else a student, there was no other way for the CCP to “infiltrate” Falun Gong and control it like it could an organized religion. Falun Gong’s popularity continued to grow, and by 1999 Chinese government estimates were that there were 70-100 million people practicing it. That’s at least 10 million more than the CCP membership at the time. Yet, Taiji is even more popular, so why not persecute it instead, right? What sets Falun Gong apart from Taiji and other qigongs is the emphasis on spirituality. Practicing Falun Gong is way more about studying and following the teachings than practicing the exercises. And the teachings are much closer to religious doctrine than most other qigong. And as I’m sure most people here are aware, communism and spirituality aren’t friends. So here we have a huge (and growing) group of people unified by spiritual practice and belief that the government has no control over within a communist state. Add to this control-freak, Jiang Zemin, who is jealous of anything that challenges his power, or his importance in people’s minds, then we might start to see why this persecution could have started. The April 25th Zhongnanhai appeal, which likely triggered the crackdown, was an appeal in response to suppression that had already taken place in the preceding months; ie. group practices forcefully broken up by police, practitioners beaten and arrested, increasing reports in the media that practitioners considered “unfair” or “slanderous”, and the banning of Zhuan Falun, Falun Dafa’s core text. This is still a fairly superficial explanation, but I think it gives the picture.

I’ll post responses to some of the other points that have been brought up a little later.

jlick’s suggested starting point can’t be right, because the sit-down he suggests is a very political act and everyone in China knows what the response to that be. So it must have been something much earlier than then. Essentially the recruitment drive had to go from “would you like to join a taiqi group” to “would you like to join an anti-government revolutionary movement” at some point and the change from exercise club to anti-CCP political party is the point at which I lose sympathy for the leaders of FLG who try and pretend it is anything other than a political organisation. Why am I so hard on them? Well, because in the early days people were not told of the political agenda and were brought into a political movement without wishing to join a political movement. You don’t see the national billiard association staging sit-ins. Whether or not China should have religious freedom is another topic, but the churches at least state what they are so you know what is it you are getting yourself into. My objections to FLG are the same as any cult: the wedge it drives between you and your family and friends; the danger it puts your family in in China (guilt by association); and the fact that it did not in the early days represent its political motives clearly until you had joined, and it was therefore too late. Of course nowadays it is obvious what the political motives of the FLG are. Or is it? Are we saying that FLG has been hijacked by another anti-CCP movement? Or have the CCP invented the counter-revolutionary image of the FLG entirely to destroy it and it is in fact the CCP who publish the Epoch Times?

And to get back to the topic - why is the FLG pretending that organ harvesting is exclusively an FLG issue? This is of course assuming the Epoch Times is the mouthpiece of the FLG leadership.

As for the lunatic that claims to have founded FLG, Li Hongzhi, those who disbelieve his claims about aliens ruling the earth and his own god-like powers, do you believe the Time interview and transcripts of his speeches are forgeries? (Of course they are no more fantastic than the idea that a carpenter’s wife was (a) a virgin and (b) gave birth to god’s lovechild who died and then came back to life etc etc but we can start a new thread on Christianity…)

I would be interested to see how Lord Lucan would back up his statements about Falun Gong being an “anti-government revolutionary movement”, an “anti-CCP political party”, or nothing more than a “political organization”. In the time period he’s talking about, which is before the persecution started, Falun Gong had nothing to do with the government. As I said earlier, you won’t find any statements from the teacher of Falun Gong that would suggest any intention to incite descent among his practitioners against the government. On the contrary, there are numerous statements about the importance of “not getting involved in politics” or “not mixing cultivation and politics” (note: cultivation here refers to cultivating your character or “heart nature”, the most central aspect of the Falun Gong teachings). Only after practitioners became the subject of suppression, and later persecution, were there any statements made suggesting that practitioners stand up against the government or its leaders. People “weren’t told of any political agenda” because there wasn’t a political agenda. Even now, after 8 years of persecution, Falun Gong is nothing like a political party. Practitioners don’t seek the government’s power. Instead, they just want to be left alone and have their name cleared, and the methods they’ve taken to accomplish this have always been non-violent. I think most people would admire that, rather than condemn it.

Your statement about Falun Gong being a “cult” that “drives a wedge between you and your family and friends” is equally unfounded and wrong. Falun Gong has no membership, no real hierarchy, no churches or temples, no worship, and it’s FREE. You can even learn it and practice it all by yourself without ever coming in contact with another practitioner (I’ve met quite a few people who were this way for quite a while). Moreover, the focus of its teachings is to cultivate Truth-Compassion-Tolerance, in your daily life, which translates to always trying to be a better and better person. I don’t see how this could be considered a cult. If you want to talk about driving a wedge between you and your family and friends, then maybe you should pick on Buddhism, which holds the ideal of becoming monk, a person severs all ties to this world, including family and friends. Does that make it a cult too? The fact is that Falun Gong doesn’t even do this at all. On the contrary, the teachings hold that a practitioner should maintain normal relations with his friends and family in society, and this is strongly emphasized. Personally, I’ve only become closer to my family after practicing Falun Gong. (note: I highly respect Buddhism.)

No, no one is pretending that organ harvesting in China is exclusively a Falun Gong issue.

Yes, I believe that the transcript from the Time interview is genuine. It’s true that there are some beliefs in the Falun Gong teachings that probably seem strange to a lot of people, but I hope people can make an effort to understand them within the greater context that they are in. The fact is that a lot of the statements or beliefs that get sensationalized in the media, such as things about aliens, aren’t really very central to the teachings. I really don’t think that I think about or care about aliens anymore than the next guy. What I’m saying is that beliefs like this aren’t very meaningful in Falun Gong, and there is a much broader context that they exist in. And what’s central in this broader context is actually quite similar to common beliefs held in Buddhism or Daoism; two religions that most people, at least on this island, wouldn’t consider so strange. If after really trying to get to know about the whole picture of Falun Gong’s beliefs you still consider it strange (I’m sure many people still would), then I really have no problem with that. I just don’t like it when people jump to this conclusion, and begin trying to spread this opinion, without really knowing much about it.

So what are you doing here Lord Lucan? Why do you speak with such anger about things that aren’t even true? I suggest that you stop trying to push your very biased and ill-informed opinion about Falun Gong, and take some time to actually try to understand it for what it is.

[quote=“Cullum”]I just don’t like it when people jump to this conclusion, and begin trying to spread this opinion, without really knowing much about it.

Well said.

Who is Li Hongzhi, and what does he stand for?

We are not against the government now, nor will we be in the future. Other people may treat us badly, but we do not treat others badly, nor do we treat people as enemies.

Li has made statements condemning homosexuality, suggesting a homosexual has a “dark heart, turning demonic.” However, homosexuals can practice Falun Gong if they “correct this bad behavior”.

Li declares, on page one of his core Jingwen (literally, the Sacred Book, Scripture) Zhuan Falun , that he is introducing an unprecedented system to “bring people up to a high level.” Falun is his own knowledge. Other gods are not allowed to share it with mortals. Li has kept it for thousands of years

Li frequently borrows materials from Western catastrophists and pseudo-archaeologists such as, that the moon is a hollowed artificial object created in the past by earthly beings for illumination at night (Switzerland C, 9), the pyramid is also a prehistoric creation—sunken underneath the continents, resurfaced in the tectonic plates movements—only to be discovered by the Egyptians for their own storage use (ZFL II C, 8).

According to Li, not only Darwin’s theory of evolution is “the biggest shame and scandal of this human being”, but also Newton’s Law of Gravitation is clearly wrong (the Frankfurt lecture, May 30-31, 1998).

Li’s anti-science position could be best summarized as follows with his own words: “The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.” (“Interview with Li Hongzhi”, Time Magazine Asia, May 10, 1999)

Diseases are seen as tests of the resolute of the disciples. They should not worry about treating the disease but instead continue practicing Falungong. Diseases are a karmic manifestation that can only be reverted with Li’s methods (Sydney E, 23). Doing so would upgrade xinxing, curing all diseases including leukemia (see Minghui’s report March 25, 2000). It is taught that true disciples do not need medicine, and those who seek medical treatment for their diseases lack faith in Falungong (ZFL E: chapter 5).

Li “You must completely dispose of the desires of ordinary people, immoral thoughts, and the intention of wrongdoing…. In the meantime, you should also suffer a little bit and endure some hardships to reduce your karma. You can then move up a little bit…” [by moving into a Manhattan apartment.]

Geez what I can I say when you post actual quotes? I suppose I can help provide a little context for this stuff. I want to start by saying that I never said that Falun Gong doesn’t include beliefs that most people would consider strange. Certainly, the belief that aliens have influenced the development of modern science in order to control human beings is not one shared or easily accepted by many people. What I can say about this though, and I’ve said this before, is that this really doesn’t hold a significant place in Falun Gong belief. I said in an earlier post that I really don’t think that I think about aliens anymore than the next guy, and I meant that. In my opinion, this, along with what was mentioned about the moon being hollow and the pyramids, is more like information said in passing about things Mr. Li thinks his disciples aught to know, but not put much weight on. I can give you and example with a quote from a 1998 lecture in Switzerland:

[quote]“Question: It’s mentioned in Zhuan Falun [(Volume II)] that the moon was constructed by the humankind of a remote age. Could Teacher tell us a little about the reason and purpose back then for constructing it?”

“Teacher: Everyone here is laughing, because that’s so far from why I teach the Fa. You are seeking knowledge and letting your imagination run wild. And when your imagination runs wild, your thinking becomes less pure and tranquil. But instead of letting go of those things you’re attached to among ordinary people, you’re asking me about them and even mixing them together with the Fa. That’s precisely what I’m worried about with you all. Put your mind to cultivation. Of course, I can answer, since the question has been raised.” [/quote]

It’s true that Falun Gong teachings disbelieve in Newton’s theory of gravity and Darwinism, but so what? While these may be widely accepted beliefs, they are theories nonetheless, and not fact. And as such, people are entitled to believe or disbelieve them as they please. I don’t think it’s so bad to think outside the box sometimes, that’s usually how science develops in the first place.

Now sometimes a problem comes up where people say that they can accept that Falun Gong has some strange beliefs, and that there’s nothing wrong with that, but they believe that some beliefs, like those regarding medicine and homosexuality, may be harmful to practitioners or promote intolerance. So I’ll say a few words about this.

It’s true that Falun Gong belief regards the practice of homosexuality as a sin. However, I’d like to add that any form of lust, regardless of the gender, is also a sin. Even between a married couple, lust must be taken quite seriously. And, just as I don’t impose my personal standards regarding lust on others, I also don’t impose my beliefs on homosexuality. I can guarantee that you won’t find any anti-gay activists who are Falun Gong practitioners. Falun Gong is a practice for personal spiritual cultivation, we aren’t trying to change the world, just cultivate ourselves. I understand that most homosexuals, as a minority group that has long had to fight for their rights and still a common target of hate crimes, want to be accepted by all, and are thus easily against Falun Gong because of it’s belief in this regard. And to be honest, I really don’t know what to say in response to this. But I do believe that we can still live harmoniously alongside one another, accepting each others differences. Isn’t that what diversity is about? For what it’s worth, I have quite a few friends and relatives who are homosexuals and my relationships with them differ in no way than with others. And I bet that most Falun Gong practitioners are the same way.

Can practicing Falun Gong cure leukemia? I wouldn’t be surprised. Every practitioner I’ve ever met who had health problems before practicing Falun Gong underwent dramatic health improvement shortly after starting practicing it. And amongst these people I’ve known some who have had serious conditions completely cured. Were I to meet someone who had their leukemia cured I wouldn’t be surprised. Say what you want about Falun Gong’s unconventional beliefs, but anyone who has come to know practitioners can’t deny that practicing it is really good for your health. I think there are two main beliefs to consider when talking about Falun Gong and illness, which I explained in an earlier post:

As for diseases being tests, actually anything can be a test when practicing Falun Gong, as long as it tests your attachments or faith. If having an illness tests your faith then it can also be considered a test. I believe that your comment about “true disciples not needing medicine” has to do with a combination of everything I listed above, ie. that practitioners become really healthy after practicing, that bearing illness eliminates negative karma, and that when you wholeheartedly practice you’re life will be protected. However, Mr. Li has said that if a practitioner really feels that they are sick, then they should go to the hospital without delay. Li has never said that “Diseases are a karmic manifestation that can only be reverted with Li’s methods”; I checked the lecture, it isn’t there. If you’re interested in knowing more about this, then it might be beneficial to read the article entitled “sickness karma”, in the book “Falun Dafa Essentials for Further Advancement”. I would like to add again, that Falun Gong is something you do yourself, practitioners do not place their standards on others. So if a practitioner has a kid, they will definitely give him medicine when he is sick. There shouldn’t be any concern about that.

I think it’s important to understand that there’s no way you can correctly understand Falun Gong or Li Hongzhi by reading random quotes like those posted above. It’s too easy to sensationalize things like these, while leaving out the essence. The above post was entitled “what does Li Hongzhi stand for?”, and contained the statements I just addressed, which are far from an accurate picture of Li Hongzhi’s teachings. Like I’ve said before, if you’re actually serious about understanding Falun Gong then read Zhuan Falun, the main book of teachings, for yourself. If you anyone has anymore questions or things they want to discuss about Falun Gong, I’m still here and willing.

Why does Falun Gong remind me of Scientology?

Both started as science fiction which turned into mystical crap, and both cases the recent invention of some coke-head.

Advancement? Clearing? Wake up and smell the sewer, guys.

The word ‘theory’ has a distinct meaning when discussing science.

A scientific theory is merely something that has not be proved, not something for which someone just thought up. In addition, it is something that has not been either disproved or supplanted by a better theory. Disbelieving a theory that has been around for a while without providing an alternative theory that can be scientifically tested is, I think, not exactly rational. Scientific theories are often disproved and sometimes there are even competing theories to explain some phenomena, but over time scientific theories tend to have a pretty good track record. And scientific theories tend to work every time, while spiritual theories tend to use cherry-picked evidence of questionable reliability.

“Question: It’s mentioned in Zhuan Falun [(Volume II)] that the moon was constructed by the humankind of a remote age. Could Teacher tell us a little about the reason and purpose back then for constructing it?”

“Teacher: Everyone here is laughing, because that’s so far from why I teach the Fa. You are seeking knowledge and letting your imagination run wild. And when your imagination runs wild, your thinking becomes less pure and tranquil. But instead of letting go of those things you’re attached to among ordinary people, you’re asking me about them and even mixing them together with the Fa. That’s precisely what I’m worried about with you all. Put your mind to cultivation. Of course, I can answer, since the question has been raised.”[/quote]
So? Enough of the mealy-mouthed claptrap. You said you can answer. What’s holding you back?
Great god almighty! What a pillock. How on EARTH did he manage to get followers?

They are fact. They may be true or false, but they are fact. It is opinions that cannot be proved either true or false.

They are free to believe or not, but not for the reason you suggest.

Its OK to think outside the box, so long as your mind doesn’t leave the box only to enter your anus.

Homosexuality is not a form of lust.

Certainly. But I do not believe lust between a married couple is a sin. I don’t think that i believe lust is a sin at all. And just what is a sin?

Does FLG make attempts to bring other people into the FLG belief/religion/circus? If yes, then you cannot correctly say that FLG is a practice for personal spiritual cultivation.

How would you feel if I advocated that people who practice and spread FLG are evil, sinful, scum who practice an immoral way?

I would.

FLG doesn’t provide much help against Chinese prison guards, does it?

Except in cases where Chinese prison guards decide to harm them.

Are Chinese prison guards a test? Did the FLG practitioners who have been killed by Chinese prison guards pass or fail the test?

Urodacus - Why does Falun Gong remind you of Scientology? I really don’t know. L Ron Hubbard was a science fiction author, Mr. Li isn’t. Scientology requires followers to pay money, Falun Gong is totally free. Scientology has a bunch of secret teachings that only full-fledged followers are allowed to know about, Falun Gong’s teachings are all free for anyone to download off the internet. Scientology’s emphasis is on mind exercises (or something like that), Falun Gong’s emphasis is on cultivation of one’s heart nature according to Truth-Compassion-Tolerance. Scientology uses some weird machine, Falun Gong only uses one’s mind and body. Scientology has a structured organization, Falun Gong doesn’t. Most of Falun Gong’s teachings are similar to other Eastern religions, Scientology’s teachings are more similar to science fiction. They’re completely different!

About Darwin and Newton - Falun Gong doesn’t disbelieve in fact. So actually, it’s not that Falun Gong disbelieves those theories altogether. In terms of gravity, Falun Gong simply has a different understanding of why it exists; namely, that gravity occurs not because of some force, but because of interconnections that exist among particles at the same level. And as for Darwinism, we believe that the human race has existed for millions of years, and didn’t evolve from apes. And we don’t consider these to be ideas that someone just thought up either. It’s a fact that what human beings can see, come into contact with, and understand about our material world is limited. What I mean by this is that we can only see things made up of molecules, forming objects of a certain size, and even then, there are lots of things that we can only detect with scientific apparatuses, and likely others that we have no why of detecting at all. And when we look at all this, the best we can do is guess, run experiments, and debate why it happens. Conversely, if you believe in eastern religion, then you probably believe that a person can become enlightened through spiritual cultivation. An enlightened person understands things that normal human beings can’t. They break through the limitation that restricts scientists from knowing rather than simply theorizing and believing. Besides, if these ideas were really that absurd then there wouldn’t be so many scientists and engineers who practice Falun Gong, but there are tones.

Sandman – I only quoted the part that I thought was relevant for the discussion. If you want to see what he says, then you can google it. If you are seriously puzzled about how anybody would practice Falun Gong, then maybe you can try reading Zhuan Falun, the central text, and then rethinking it. I don’t practice Falun Gong because of beliefs about the moon, aliens, evolution, or gravity, but I believe those things because I have gained faith in it through understanding, putting into practice, and experiencing the more central teachings.

Tigerman – Whether lust is or isn’t a sin is everyone’s own opinion. You’re free to think about it anyway you want. You said “How would you feel if I advocated that people who practice and spread FLG are evil, sinful, scum who practice an immoral way?” Did I say that I advocated anything? No. On the contrary, I said that it was a personal belief that has no effect on my relations with others. Besides, the question of morality in homosexual relations is one that has existed in many cultures for thousands of years. It’s something that is directly related to understanding human nature itself and thus often hits on the beliefs and understandings held by many religions and cultures. The result is that everyone has their own take on it. The important thing is being able to accept that people will naturally have these different understandings, and not impose your beliefs on others. Some people say that Falun Gong is intolerant of homosexuals, but it’s not a question of tolerance. It’s a belief held based on an understanding of human nature and purpose. However, what is a question of tolerance is people trashing Falun Gong because of its belief in this regard.

I don’t really get your logic here; that introducing your belief system to others would negate it being for personal spiritual cultivation. Actually, we generally don’t make attempts to get others to start practicing, the most we do is introduce it and let people decide for themselves. If you think it’s had a good effect on your life, then why wouldn’t you introduce it to others? However, I will say that trying to “convert” people is not something of much significance in Falun Gong. We believe that if a person comes to practice it is because they have a predestined relationship. If you don’t have this relationship, then you won’t become a practitioner. Since this isn’t something that anyone can see, we’re generally not too pushy about getting others to start practicing. In fact, in the early years Li Hongzhi often stressed that practitioners shouldn’t push others to practice, introducing it is good enough.

[quote=“Tigerman”]FLG doesn’t provide much help against Chinese prison guards, does it? [/quote]I was talking about illness. I think most people would agree that getting sick and dying is quite different than being tortured to death.

That’s all for now.

Quite. And relevant it is indeed. Asked a simple question, he says yes, he can answer. And then doesn’t. If he does, provide it, please. If he doesn’t, then I’m vindicated – he’s a charlatan duping gullible fools.
You don’t practice FLG because of belief in aliens on the moon, walking through walls, the evil of homosexuality and inter-racial relationships, yet these are very VERY clearly the tenets of that wealthy ex-low level civil servant Li.
So that leads me to believe that you practice FLG despite the fact that it’s inventor is a raving fruitcake. One can only wonder why. Breathing exercises? Bullshit. There are many forms of beneficial breathing exercises, none of which are touted by an arsehole in New York raking in money off his daft books while his followers are tortured and murdered in China. My taichi, for example, kicks your FLG’s sorry arse in terms of health and spiritual benefits, and I don’t have to suffer the ridicule of thinking people thanks to some twit who thinks he can fly and that my kids are damned because they’re dirty half-breeds.

He answers the question, and if you type one of those sentences into google you can probably find out what he says. While I’m more than willing to respond to others’ posts about these beliefs, I don’t wish to highlight them. The reason being is that the more this kind of hard-to-believe and less-than-central stuff is posted, the more people identify this stuff with Falun Gong, to the extent that a lot of people might get the idea that this is what Falun Gong is all about. Well, it’s really not. Falun Gong is about cultivating your character or mind nature according to the principles of Truth, Compassion, and Tolerance as understood through Li Hongzhi’s teachings. It’s about belief in the divine, karma and virtue, letting go of attachments, meditation, being kind to others, and constantly searching within yourself to see how you can do a better job at everything you do. Of course, the beliefs that others have brought up here are part of it, and I do believe them (partially because I’ve gained faith in the discipline, and partially because once you understand the universe according to Falun Gong thought, these things aren’t so hard to imagine), it’s just that they’re only little pieces within a much bigger puzzle. You’ve shown me how much you know about Falun Gong by mentioning breathing exercises. In fact, Falun Gong has no breathing exercises. And without knowing too much about Falun Gong you’re really not in much of a position to say that your Taichi is better. As for your insults about Li, is it wrong to make money by selling books that you have written? Besides, the books are sold at cost and offered free on the internet. He only gets the author’s royalties. Why are you so angry?