Has Germany Learned Its Lesson?

BooHoo. :frowning: I feel so bad now. :frowning: I’ve been stereotyped. I guess I’ll have to go get my Klan robes out of the closet, sit down, watch Jerry Springer and drink a sixpack of Bud…screw my sister…or maybe yours MT. After all, I not predjudiced…I like to screw cotton-brained elitists also. :smiling_imp:

Hi boys! (shabab)

I agree with you mother Theresa: there is too much hate and racism and I am trying my best to rise above it.

This is an old joke, but I couldn’t resist:

There are two things I hate in life: racism and those tight-arse Scotsmen in kilts. (See, I could have said wog or slope etc., but I rose above it)

Dunc


If it’s no Scottish, it’s crrrahp.

I was forced to read Gunther Grass in German in secondary school. While the tin drum was a good book, I don’t think that his focus on German anti-semitism is more than a way of inciting a bit more of the soul-searching, Germany has been thru for the last 50+ years.

Have you been to Germany Fred? If not, you might want to ask Rascal or Iris what they think about jews. Let it rest. Please.

“Time will tell
Shit will smell
And water seeks it’s own level.”

HEY! My arse isnay tight! No, wait, that’s no’ whit I mean. I mean, … Och, I’m awa’ fur a wee refreshment :blush:

Hi boys!

I always insist that my dates study my language before going on a date. I am currently monitoring Ax’s progress.

The Highland Tongue

Dunc

PS. For all potential dates, I would describe myself as a bit shy, but once I have a couple of drams (see lesson) inside me, I am friggen’ Michael Flatley!
Home Fae Home

Yeah Fred, what’s the deal, God forbid anyone should discuss issues touching on race. Your SECOND such post??? You racist. Next you’ll be talking about the Taiwanese, AAAAIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE!

Fred, you’re melding the book and the article together in a way I can’t understand. I’m not familiar with the author or book so I can’t say anything about it.

That would not be surprising, to my knowledge none of the East European nations had the history of Communist politics that Germany did. If some of the Western European nations had fallen under Soviet control you may have seen a similar “enthusiasm.” Though the fall of communism there would suggest that any enthusiasm had a rather shallow base.

[quote]
My understanding of the reading (the treatise not Gunther Grass’s Crab Walk) is that during the Reformation while there were religious conflicts everywhere, the most vicious and destructive ones took place in Germany. Again, no where was nationalism/militarism more virulent than Germany (the author attributed the Danish-Prussian, Austro-Prussian, Franco-Prussian, WWI, WWII all to this militant nationalism).

I guess to view this treatise in that light, you would have to buy into the theory that all of these conflicts were started by Germany[/quote]

With the exception of the franco-prussian war I would buy into that, but that’s about it. As was stated above you must look at the political history of Germany. It was divided into small autocratic states that fed religious conflict. It was repeatedly wounded by foreign intervention in such conflict. That the united Germany which arose in the middle of the 19th century was aggressive is completely unsurprising to me.

I would like you to elaborate more on why Naziism was not an abberration, and I won’t mind if you spoil the book for me :slight_smile:

[quote]I would really like to get someone’s reaction to Gunther Grass’s point. I believe that he is highly respected for his insight into the German psyche.
[/quote]

Basically where this all falls apart is this talk of a German psyche. This approach to history is a a load of rubbish. It’s the sort of thing that was popular at the start fo the last century and let to the ultra-nationalism that turned into Nazism.

German psyche? What kind of crap is that?

Look it probably all comes down to geography. Look at where Germany is on the map of Europe.

Brian

Why do we keep hearing about anti-semitism, ad nauseum? And the holocaust–why do they keep on flogging that dead horse? Isn’t sixty years enough? Haven’t there been enough other disasters to think about?

Not just here–in books and newspapers too. Why are they so interested in this? Israel has done everything that Nazi Germany tried to do, but do we read anguished reflections on “The Jewish Psyche”?

Perhaps we should. Much of the rising anti-semitism in Europe is coming from Muslims, who have every reason to be anti-semitic. But not exclusively, by any means.

I think Europeans generally have longer memories, and are more aware that Jews (like Muslims today) are just one more special interest group out to get whatever they can. If you think back to why something like the holocaust could happen, for example, you come to the question of the Jewish role in fomenting World War I. In this light, European anti-semitism is basically defensive in nature. (The famous Nazi-German boycotts of Jews were in retaliation for Jewish-instigated boycotts of Germany during WW1.)

Of course none of this could be discussed in American media. Gee, why is that? Which ethnic group dominates U.S. publishing and media? Who keeps striving to ensure that everyone keeps talking about anti-semitism?

As the world integrates, watch to see how they try to coopt Chinese or Middle Eastern media.

The what of what role in fomenting what? Holy smokes. Dude, if this is a piss take you fooled me.

It will be hard to find a German below the age of 75, which had anything to do with the holocaust. Ask Rascal/Iris how much they learned about the holocaust in school. My guess: A lot.

To all who have very ACTIVELY responded to this thread. Thanks. Let me try to reply to a few points.

Again, if anyone would take the time to go back and reread the thread on “Why everyone hates France” they will find (I believe) that my point is a few months ago, no matter where I went, I found this sense of betrayal among the coalition, particularly Americans but also British and Australians and New Zealanders, and a few Canadians, which was driving a very white hot anger against France. My posts were: Why? What can be done? Is France justified in its actions? is America? Where is the common ground if any? So while we all know French people and like them that was clearly not the point. No one ever said, all bad all good so please do not simplify the argument to such a degree.

The point was I hoped to get people to see where their problems if any were with the French or the Americans depending on which side you want to argue from and define the “problem” and see what was needed in terms of a response or change in policy from the Other (Said, ugh) to resolve it. Also, yes, I think that there are other topics that would not include “Why are the Chinese so inscrutable,” but I would raise a topic like “Does the Chinese education system stunt independent thinking and creativity” or I might start a thread called “Why is there such a problem with terrorism in the Muslim world,” but the latter has been debated endlessly in the media.

Second, is there any point to discussing anti-Semitism in Germany. Well based on my understanding of Grass’s novel “Crab Walk” the title is given because Grass believes that Germans have never really full on confronted their history, but sort of sidled away from it while going ahead. Of course this could be said of others. When I read a novel that raises the point with regard to the Americans, Swedes, Russians and Poles and find it interesting enough, I may raise it as a thread.

The point is that neither the son of the protagonist, who finds an event that instills in him an Internet chat with a person who claims to be Jewish but in fact is not. They spar on the Internet, with one pointing to the tragedy of a man who was assassinated by a Jew in Switzerland. Later the Nazis built a cruise ship named after this person. The ship was sunk by the Russians when it was filled with soldiers but also thousands of refugees. The protagonist as can be expected was born right before the ship sank but survived. The mother poisoned his son (the grandson) with Nazi sympathies but ironically was also confusingly pro Stalin. Hence his view of the confused nature of the East Germans (from Hitler to Stalin) with no sense of conflict, hence the “isms” enthusiasm point. An eventual meeting leads to the German (Nazi) killing the Jew (but not really Jewish) so the point is why is there so much anti-Semitism when there are no longer any Jews left in Germany? Why is another German killing another German because of anti-Semitism? And why would others follow up the event on the Internet, making a hero of the German who killed the German because they too were anti-Semites?

It is interesting though that a few of the posts point to the Jewish domination of the media, finance, take your pick. This was Grass’s point also. It may be true in America, but it is certainly not true anywhere in Europe, though Conrad Black (wife is Jewish) owns a few prominent media outlets in Canada and UK. So why are people still harping on the Jewish domination of media/finance, especially in nations like Germany, Poland or Russia? So despite the lack of a significant Jewish population, is it possible that in fact an enduring anti-Semitism exists which grabs onto these issues without any reason (come on! retaliation for WWI Jewish-inspired boycotts. The fact that someone could even point to this would seem to justify Grass’s point about anti-Semitism being alive and well).

Again Grass’s point I believe is that regardless of the actual truth of whether the Jews dominate anything, they are pointed to less through rational, well thought out arguments about the “evilness” of their domination but to fears, paranoias etc among people who do not believe that they are in control of their lives so it is “someone else’s fault.”

Finally, to those who asked if I know Germans, my whole family is German from East Prussia. It is entirely conceivable some of my relatives would have been on the ship that was sunk (mentioned in Grass’s novel). While not a German national, I have been to every major city and small town in Germany having taken vacations there every other summer. I have been to the beer halls of Munich, the Vienna Opera Ball (yes I know this is in Austria. Let me say this anyway to head off any condescending remarks about my remarks based on my incredible lack of understanding regarding German geography), the Bayreuth Wagner festival, the horseraces at Baden Baden, you name it. So in fact, yes, I think I have a very good understanding of the Germans and do I think that anti-Semitism is still a problem, YES.

Peace Love and all that

Thanks for some of the interesting comments though. That is EXACTLY the kind of discussion I wanted to have. And just because some might hijack this thread with simplistic stereotypes does not mean that we have to give in and lose the discussion because of that surely?

One last thing. As to the Muslims in Europe being justified in their anti-Semitism, I would like to ask, what exactly have the Jews done to Arabs?

Now if you are looking at Israeli (can we paint all Jews worldwide with this conflict?) domination of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, that would qualify the Muslims in Palestine, maybe Syria (Golan Heights), Lebanon (southern occupation/invasion back in the 1980s), but what about Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia who make up most of the Arabs and Muslims in France? What exactly has Israel done to them?

So by this logic, all European nations can hate Turkey because it is a Muslim nation which occupies the northern 40 percent of Cyprus, a predominantly Christian Greek nation? Therefore the West should refuse to deal with the Muslim world until Turkey pulls out of northern Cyprus.

My point is that I find the all Muslims united in their hatred of Israel ridiculous (I have rarely found unity in the Arab World except on this point). Then that is Israel. Why be anti-Semitic in France? Why blow up synagogues in Paris? Do all Jews in France support the state of Israel? I think that is very doubtful.

Fred,

The title of your post is, “Has Germany learned its lesson?” You start by asking, “Is Germany to be a ‘troublemaker’ perennially?” and explain that some feel that “dogmatic adherence to ‘isms’ is second nature to the Germans. While today thankfully it is ‘pacifism,’ tomorrow it could be something else more dangerous.” Finally, you ask whether anyone has any opinions on the subject.

So I gave my opinion. I think the above generalizations are BS. My great-grandparents were killed by the nazis. Did they learn a lesson? Yes, that there is incredible hatred in the world. Were they troublemakers? No, unless you consider teaching to be troublemaking. My grandparents made it out of Germany. Did they learn a lesson? Yes, that it’s hell to lose everything including your homeland. Were they troublemakers? No, unless you consider teaching to be troublemaking. My father escaped when he was seven. Did he learn a lesson? I believe he’s been struggling with the lessons for his entire life. Was he a troublemaker. Probably: he was just seven years old.

A few years ago, a woman in Munich invited my parents and me to visit Germany, stay in her house, and view an exhibition that her women’s club was putting on about great women of Bavaria. My great-grandmother, who had been a member of the same club, was featured in the exhibition. So we came to Munich and stayed in her house for a week, displacing her children from their rooms. A nicer family I could not imagine. Your comment about Germans never having faced their past couldn’t be further from the truth, in my experience. We had many serious, searching discussions not only with this kind family, but with various other folks at this exhibition honoring many who were slain by the Nazis.

You asked for opinions, yet for some reason I was attacked for giving mine. I don’t see much difference between saying that, “Germans like isms and are therefore a danger to the world,” and saying “black people commit lots of crimes, so be careful if you’re in a dark alley with a black man.” But that’s just my opinion.

I also think with the crappy state of the world lately, this is not a particularly good time to be making broad derogatory generalizations about classes of people. There’s already enough irrational hatred of muslims, arabs, dark-skinned people, people who act funny, etc, ever since 9-11, and the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq. There’s too much of the bullshit us and them mentality typified (no perpetuated) by Dubya with his “you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” remark. To quote Rodney King, why can’t we all just get along?

You’re free to post whatever subject you wish. But I happen to feel that (a) your generalization is wrong and (b) the main effect your discussion will have is to perpetuate divisiveness, hatred and ignorant prejudices. But that’s just my opinion.

I would like to think that the rest of that post was meant as a joke, but it doesn’t look like one. What a heap of crap.

I have a similar family background to Mother Theresa and I agree with him, largely. There is anti-semitism (anti-Jewish prejudice) all over the world. One of the worst anti-semites I have come across was a Hungarian. I don’t think Germany is a particularly bad case - that was history, now is now. Also, as far as blanket hatred of Jews among Moslems is concerned, in my experience you are more likely to find that among Pakistanis than Palestinians. The Palestinian Arabs live in direct contact with real live Jews, so they are less likely to draw generalisations. Also, I went to an Arab district in Paris - Belleville. Among the Arab shops there are plenty of Jewish ones. Those Moslems and Jews come mostly from Morocco and Tunisia and they seem to get on fine.

Uncle. I cry uncle. Okay. I surrender. I give up.

This discussion has gone far off-topic and without having read the book and knowing how Grass reached those conclusions I don’t think there is much I can contribute on that specific subject.

We did indeed learn a lot about the holocaust and WWII, a trip to Berlin including a visit to the Reichstag (and the exhibition there) was compulsory for every schoolclass in Germany and we have been shown documentaries which made people cry.
Of course my generation was not involved or affected in the war, even my dad was still a kid at the time and on the run with my grandma, but to say we never confronted our history seems to be a bit of an overstatement. Else what would you (or Grass) have us done?

Rascal, isn’t it true that West Germany was “denazified” by the Allies after WWII while East Germany wasn’t?

hup.harvard.edu/catalog/VOGDEN.html

[quote=“blueface666”]Rascal, isn’t it true that West Germany was “denazified” by the Allies after WWII while East Germany wasn’t?

hup.harvard.edu/catalog/VOGDEN.html[/quote]

Although the US’ version of denazification may have been just to have the german nazis switch to new hats. Many former nazis were incorporated into the new government. Sure many of them may have been the administrative, bureaucratic elements of the Nazi system that we wouldn’t normally associate with the worst of Nazism and were needed to make W.Germany run, but the US also secretly enlisted the help of many Nazi agents in the good fight against the Red including some of the nastier elements.
Like how the Japanese biological division which tested prisoners and civilians from China with plague, bioweapons, etc. was given immunity by the US government ie no nuremberg-type trial, no human rights violations in exchange for the US obtaining all the data from the biological division.

So sure if that’s what you mean, then I guess W. Germany was denazified. :smiling_imp:

see you on the pork-chop express!

Nonsense. Believe me, the only people I’ve ever heard complaining about “Jewish domination in media and finance” have been Americans. This is not an issue ever discussed in Germany, neither in the media nor in every-day conversation. On the contrary. Books and media on the Holocaust are published more than ever. I can show you the catalogues of publishing companies. In some of them, at least one third to half of the newly published books deal with the Third Reich, Jewish people who suffered in the war, German and World politics during that time etc., fiction as well as non-fiction. And these are not justifications but rather even more attempts at understanding what went on, what made people commit the cruelties they committed. As Rascal said, education on the Holocaust is compulsory in any German school. We started reading the first book in grade 6 (iirc), the autobiography of the daughter of a famous Jewish theatre critic, Alfred Kerr, who had to flee with his family first to Switzerland and later to France, seen from the view of an eight-year old girl. Mind you, we read that in our “German” class (literature, grammar, essay-writing etc.). The Holocaust and the events around WWII were dealt with repeatedly in history, ethics (or the respective religious education), German, French, English, geography class and I don’t remember what else. We read stories, learned numbers and dates, saw pictures, watched movies, did school trips to former concentration camps (in my case one in Alsatia, but my sister went to Auschwitz). We read accounts by French and English authors, too.

Everybody who has been to school in Germany is fully aware of what the holocaust was and what it meant to the world. IMHO, this is one of the reasons why it were especially young Germans who protested against the Iraq war. As to neo-nazis and their anti-semitism, I don’t think the scale is bigger in Germany than anywhere else. But of course, it’s more noted if it is the Germans (and I’m not trying to defend anybody here!).

Some of the other posters have made good points in answer to the original post. But if you have any further questions on what Germans learn or don’t learn in school, feel free to ask.

Iris