Help! Adult class is like pulling teeth!

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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I have been teaching adults now for 2 moths 3 classes per week. The material is OK but in my 2 conversation classes the students don’t ask questions much are very passive and only respond if I make jokes, tell stories and let them watch videos! This works but it wears me out like I have to be a white Dave Chappelle or something! :smiley:

I am still a new teacher here and It is a shock. I taught English in Germany before I came here for a bit. I thought Germans were a bit conservative ahem,until coming to Taiwan. Taiwanese students are nice but they make Germans look like a The greatest conversationalist on earth. I saw another old thread about ideas for adult classes but i am hoping someone can enlighten me with something new.

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Do they know when and how to ask appropiate questions?

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I have the opposite problem that you have - I find it difficult to make small talk with other Westerners and I get bored and say nothing most of the time. Thankfully, I’m too old to worry about it and it’s fine with me! However, I have done fairly well with conversation classes with Taiwanese adults.

It took me a few years to figure this out in a fundamental way, but generally speaking, it seems that most adults in Taiwan had a “teacher talks/students listen” education. For every subject, including English. Most students were/are punished (in one way or another) for making mistakes and the adults are especially aware of and concerned about losing face by making any mistake at all. Most students are (at first) afraid to talk or voice any opinion that has not been pre-approved by consensus. At least, that’s what I saw happening when things were not working in my classes before. I figured that most students were more comfortable memorizing vocabulary than just saying a few of their own words!

So, I had to find my own way. And I’m aware that I’m possibly breaking a cultural practice/attitude. I treat this seriously, and it could be a whole other essay to describe the thought that went into this decision, but …

With permission and awareness from my superiors (after explaining that, as a foreign teacher, I think it is acceptable to make mistakes when under pressure to speak spontaneously) I explain to students, that if they try, it is better to make some mistakes than to say nothing. I spend more than a few minutes on this (with both superiors and students). At first, I won’t correct too much. I just want them to say anything! And, I am genuinely interested in hearing how they try to put English words to their thoughts, so I like to get them to just blurt out things if they want to. There’s a bit of discretion involved too. I have a very informal approach that needs a bit of time, acceptance and permission, but my “approval rating” from ex-students (and most, but not all, superiors) keeps me happy and employed.

One of my first lessons is to tell students to never say, “I am sorry, my English is so bad.” Why? blah, blah, blah … If they are quiet, I speak some of my badly enunciated and mangled Chinese to them. I’m still the teacher, but I’m not too proud to admit my Chinese is horrible. That usually breaks the ice (no matter how long I’ve taught them). I then (naively) ask them why my Chinese is so bad: but, they have to answer me in English! And then I/we maybe can get going. I don’t find it demeaning at all if I have to do a little bit of a Mr Bean act. I guess I’m a bit of a wannabee stand-up comedian. Here in an adult conversation class, I know I’m playing to an easy crowd compared to a roomful of drunken hecklers! I wonder what they’re thinking of me and I think it out loud. That further breaks the ice. I try to make it clear that (at least for now) I’m not there to judge them, assess them or tell them their English is bad. I’m there to help them progress. (A point I try to stress with my superiors if they question my attitude.)

I teach them “Hi! What’s happening?” or “Hey! What’s new?” as an open-ended greeting until they freely suggest a topic of their interest. Hard the first time, but it gets better quickly. I love it when (finally) a student is so excited to tell me something, I don’t even have time to say anything! That takes a little time, though.

Any coursebook I have used always has something in it that let’s me go off on an interesting (to me and to the students) tangent. Even the most basic stuff! I role-play talking to myself, imaginary introductions, job interviews, funny social encounters, unique experiences in Taiwan … and I watch them for a reaction … cause timing is everything! Do some more maybe, or, I shut up.

Their turn to talk!

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[quote=“Halo”]I have been teaching adults now for 2 moths 3 classes per week. The material is OK but in my 2 conversation classes the students don’t ask questions much are very passive and only respond if I make jokes, tell stories and let them watch videos! This works but it wears me out like I have to be a white Dave Chappelle or something! :smiley:

I am still a new teacher here and It is a shock. I taught English in Germany before I came here for a bit. I thought Germans were a bit conservative ahem,until coming to Taiwan. Taiwanese students are nice but they make Germans look like a The greatest conversationalist on earth. I saw another old thread about ideas for adult classes but I am hoping someone can enlighten me with something new.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with being conservative. Some Taiwanese students have different expectations for what a language class is supposed to be like than we do. We presume that a “conversation class” means interaction, with a fair bit of the onus being on the students to speak out and practice. Local students, on the other hand, often expect a teacher-centered, lecture-style presentation with the teacher doing most of the talking. Students will only talk when directed to, and then only say what they are directed to say. Not every student is this way, but a lot are and they will try to influence students who do spontaneously converse to be quiet, stop showing off and let the teacher teach more.

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I suggest you develop a bit of an induction routeen. Your adults need to feel collegiate with one onther–they need to be a unit. Otherwise, they’re a handfull of strangers risking their faces by opening their mouths.

This can be something as simple as getting them to all answer the same three questions, any new members get the same questions, and you go first, of course.

What do you do for a living?
Are you married?
Do you have kids?

It works, and these three seem humorus because they already know what you do for a living, they get to know a bit more about you and may be surprised if you aren’t single, and they will think it’s funny to tell you they’re single and then answer a question about children.

Or you can choose your own way of doing this. But they need to be invested in one another in some way, made into some kind of “family,” or they may be too fearful of losing face in their English classes to participate fully.

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[quote]It has nothing to do with being conservative. Some Taiwanese students have different expectations for what a language class is supposed to be like than we do. We presume that a "conversation class" means interaction, with a fair bit of the onus being on the students to speak out and practice. Local students, on the other hand, often expect a teacher-centered, lecture-style presentation with the teacher doing most of the talking. Students will only talk when directed to, and then only say what they are directed to say. Not every student is this way, but a lot are and they will try to influence students who do spontaneously converse to be quiet, stop showing off and let the teacher teach more.
[/quote]

conversation class" means interaction. The last time I checked the dictionary it still did. Students need to know that and try to adjust just like we do. I am not in Chinese school this is not a dream.
Halo, students in Taiwan have had the style of you talk we listen jammed down their throats. Many will only talk when directed to, true. Even then they often have trouble answering. Students here still haven’t learned to speak up because of this. In my adult classes I encourage it and do a few of the things IYouThem said too. It may take time and some of what you said you already do is good, yet tiring. You will soon learn if you have not already that teaching here is like “Edjutainment” cause they common life for many adults here is often a snoooooze. The best students I have do speak out, have opinions and don’t give a sh!t what others think because they want to get better and practice. They don’t hog the class either. Hang in there.

Many of the students tell me why they come: I must talk to western clients, overseas business trips, oral tests, etc. If this is the case adult students in Taiwan have to know they need to step up, because in these situations there is no book and no safety zone out in the real world. I emphasize this in a nice way and it gets through to 1 out of 3 and for me it’s a victory.

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^YES,in fact it does indeed have everything to do with being conservative!

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I would start out by having students work in pairs / groups and read off pre-written conversations (geared toward their needs), and as they become a bit more comfortable with one another get them writing their own conversations to read out loud in groups. This is robotic, but with the reticence common in Taiwanese adult classrooms, it’s a starting point. Eventually, you may be able to initiate conversation / debate amongst them with controversial topics, for example, and get groups to carry on debates. I think that the key is to get them working together as much as possible to take the attention off of individuals in the class (and lessen the loss of face in front of an entire classroom). After they become more comfortable speaking to one another, more ambitious tasks can follow.

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The suggestions made so far can be successfully applied to small classes of, say, 20 or fewer, but what do you do when you have 60?

I have large classes of engineers sitting in classrooms that were built for a teaching methodology that went out of practice 30 years ago (I’m talking about audio-lingual method in a language lab), and who are only there because English is compulsory.
They are used to a “teacher talk, student listen” approach, and if I ever try to elicit anything from them, only a few brave souls at the front will ever say anything, and even then they will only speak in a low voice that most other students in the class can’t hear.

Furthermore, even though the Ministry of Education as decreed that all students pass GEPT (which level? intermediate?) before graduation, my engineers know that the university does not enforce this rule, and that they will not be prevented from graduating if they have not passed the required GEPT level.

I surveyed their learning goals and preferred classroom activities in week one. The results were disappointing. Most had no learning goals, and preferred very passive styles of learning.

However, I am having some success with getting them to speak. For example, 50% of their assessment involves them submitting short video recordings of them using the target language with a partner. They do this on completion of each chapter in the book (Interchange). At least when we do a speaking activity in class, most of them get on and do it (though there are still some who just sit there waiting for the end of the lesson.)

If I ever try to give them a speaking activity without fully demonstrating it and drilling it several times first, it is bound to fail.

Any advice or suggestions?

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Sorry, no. Few Taiwanese are “conservative,” at least as westerners would define the word.

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[quote=“Dangergyrl”][quote]It has nothing to do with being conservative. Some Taiwanese students have different expectations for what a language class is supposed to be like than we do. We presume that a "conversation class" means interaction, with a fair bit of the onus being on the students to speak out and practice. Local students, on the other hand, often expect a teacher-centered, lecture-style presentation with the teacher doing most of the talking. Students will only talk when directed to, and then only say what they are directed to say. Not every student is this way, but a lot are and they will try to influence students who do spontaneously converse to be quiet, stop showing off and let the teacher teach more.
[/quote]

conversation class" means interaction. The last time I checked the dictionary it still did. Students need to know that and try to adjust just like we do. I am not in Chinese school this is not a dream.
Halo, students in Taiwan have had the style of you talk we listen jammed down their throats. Many will only talk when directed to, true. Even then they often have trouble answering. Students here still haven’t learned to speak up because of this. In my adult classes I encourage it and do a few of the things IYouThem said too. It may take time and some of what you said you already do is good, yet tiring. You will soon learn if you have not already that teaching here is like “Edjutainment” cause they common life for many adults here is often a snoooooze. The best students I have do speak out, have opinions and don’t give a sh!t what others think because they want to get better and practice. They don’t hog the class either. Hang in there.

Many of the students tell me why they come: I must talk to western clients, overseas business trips, oral tests, etc. If this is the case adult students in Taiwan have to know they need to step up, because in these situations there is no book and no safety zone out in the real world. I emphasize this in a nice way and it gets through to 1 out of 3 and for me it’s a victory.[/quote]

Gee, thanks for providing a definition for the term “conversation class.” I really had no idea before. :unamused: Yes, you will have classes and students that will adapt more easily. Typically students that are younger, have been abroad, have an out-going personality or who have a keen interest will speak out. On the other hand, there is a lot of negative pressure exerted on such students to be quiet. It’s something I experienced quite a lot in my own classes. My wife was also an English major in a local university. She was one of few in her class who spoke and received a lot of flak from classmates for doing it. Consequently, though, she is one of only a handful of graduates from that year, with a degree supposedly in “English,” that can actually converse in the language.

My point was-- and is-- that OP is experiencing something common to students here. Maybe s/he will be able to bring students around to a more student-centered, communicative approach; maybe not. Be prepared for complaints and negative feedback if you persist, though. Depending on the group and especially the school/company arranging the class, it’s sometimes easier not to swim against the tide. :2cents: YMMV

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These kind of students are often the worst to teach. I have a whole lot of students (probably 75% or more) who have really low level English and who are afraid to speak. So, with those guys, I do lots of TPR and have real objects or pictures and they have to show comprehension without necessarily having to speak unless they feel ready. I make a fool of myself regularly with them, and I’m slowly breaking through to many of them.

On the other hand, probably the worst class I have in the school is a so-called advanced class with two ninth grade students who are supposedly the best English students in the school but seemingly lost the will to live a long time ago. One will not speak at all unless directed to, and even then she will turn to the other for support. The other is better, but not by a lot. With them, if I try a simpler approach as above, I can see them looking at me like I’m being terribly condescending. If I ask them what they’re interested in, they don’t know and don’t seem to care. I fucking hate students like this who refuse to meet you even 10% of the way, not even half-way, and I hate the system that produces them. Honestly, what’s the fucking point with such people?

1 Like
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Maybe just resort to actually pulling teeth. You dont wanna talk? I take a bicuspid. How do you like them apples?

No but really - is there any topics that get them excited? In my Spanish class one year the prof told us we were going to have a debate, and it was on something we all could get at least a little excited about - it was fun to actually USE the language in an enjoyable way, we actually all put work into figuring out how to say the things we wanted to say. Other than that, I guess I’m not too helpful. I’m wish you the best!

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[quote=“Halo”] The material is OK but in my 2 conversation classes the students don’t ask questions much are very passive and only respond if I make jokes, tell stories and let them watch videos! This works but it wears me out like I have to be a white Dave Chappelle or something! :smiley:
[/quote]

Drink more Red Bull. It is the ONLY solution.

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Drink more Red Bull. It is the ONLY solution.[/quote]

Yes! Or just start talking about food. Taiwanese food. If your cellphone has a camera then just take a picture* of your breakfast or lunch or whatever and show it to the class and :discodance: . Now we’re talkin!

Either before or after is fine.

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[quote]Gee, thanks for providing a definition for the term “conversation class.” I really had no idea before. :unamused: Yes, you will have classes and students that will adapt more easily. Typically students that are younger, have been abroad, have an out-going personality or who have a keen interest will speak out. On the other hand, there is a lot of negative pressure exerted on such students to be quiet. It’s something I experienced quite a lot in my own classes. My wife was also an English major in a local university. She was one of few in her class who spoke and received a lot of flak from classmates for doing it. Consequently, though, she is one of only a handful of graduates from that year, with a degree supposedly in “English,” that can actually converse in the language.

My point was-- and is-- that OP is experiencing something common to students here. Maybe s/he will be able to bring students around to a more student-centered, communicative approach; maybe not. Be prepared for complaints and negative feedback if you persist, though. Depending on the group and especially the school/company arranging the class, it’s sometimes easier not to swim against the tide. :2cents: YMMV[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be smart I know what you mean. You stated what we presume conversation means. The students need to learn and adapt to what it does mean, if not they will be getting their butts kicked by students from other countries that can converse better, mine often talk about going to seminars abroad and looking silly because they can’t converse as well as many other Asians. I have had adults 17-45 from China, Malaysia, Korea and elsewhere that embarrass my local students in class, they say after class hours, “I wish I were as good as so and so from”… The other Asian students say, “Wow Taiwanese are a little quiet.” Also adults in their 40s in Taiwan are more apt to speak up yup, school is out…finally! Now if I ever get complaints they are top secret because many students tell me “Teacher we need to speak up more in Taiwan.” The ones that can’t talk leave my class the ones that can stay depends on your school’s system.

Bravo for her! If this happens in my class I ask students why they resent this? They always point out Chinese school training and culture. But I tell them if they want to excel in English and use it in an English environment they can’t just always be passive and make the teacher adapt. They are learning English from a foreign teacher. But to each their own.

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:roflmao: Nice one.

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:roflmao: Nice one.[/quote]
Only if you can get them to open their mouths.

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FFS it’s not that difficult, and I call bullshit on anyone who claims that Taiwanese adults won’t talk.

  1. present the topic and the vocab they will need
  2. model the question and answer forms they are going to use
  3. give them time to think about what they are going to say
  4. let them practice it in pairs
  5. then they feed back

Imagine if you were asked ‘What did you do last weekend?’ in a foreign language as soon as you walked into a classroom. Or any other question for that matter. Could you give a satisfactory response?

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[quote=“tomthorne”]FFS it’s not that difficult, and I call bullshit on anyone who claims that Taiwanese adults won’t talk.

  1. present the topic and the vocab they will need
  2. model the question and answer forms they are going to use
  3. give them time to think about what they are going to say
  4. let them practice it in pairs
  5. then they feed back

Imagine if you were asked ‘What did you do last weekend?’ in a foreign language as soon as you walked into a classroom. Or any other question for that matter. Could you give a satisfactory response?[/quote]

Yeah, this kinda thing is the core of all my adult classes. Chuck in a few games / interesting stories / jokes and they’ll talk your ears off. I’d say less than 5% of my adult students are what I’d call “really shy”. Never put them on the spot. Always get them to discuss things in pairs / small groups and then, when giving feedback, they tell you what their partner does / likes / thinks. Really takes the pressure off making any mistakes. Role-plays are excellent too.