Something I’ve often heard in reference to such diverse topics as the Holocaust, civil rights movement and Native rights is: remember, never forget, etc…
Something that surprises me here in Taiwan is the attitude most people have towards their own history.
During the recent elections here, I spoke to most of my friends - some of whom are foreign, some Taiwanese, some “Waishenren” and one or two aboriginal.
The thing that surprised me was that it was the foreigners - by that I mean Western foreigners like me who were most concerned about the history of the KMT. I"ve read a bit on the topic - enough to know that the KMT has a bloody and corruption-ridden past. Instinctively, and later backed up by research, I tend to favor the DPP. I was saddened by their race-baiting during the elections and for that, they forever lost a certain legitimacy in my eyes.
So, big surprise - politicians are dirty everywhere, right?
But, when it came to my friends from Taiwan… it was these reactions that I sometimes could not understand. My best friend is “waishenren.” HE wouldn’t have voted DPP if a gun had been held to his head. He said growing up in the 70’s / 80’s here -he felt unwelcome and not in any way legitimately Taiwanese.
Contrast that with Taiwanese people apparently being second-class citizens, barred from the best jobs - liable to be “disappeared” in events like the White Terror or 2-28.
I don’t know. The KMT just seem to reek of evil and lies. I can’t imagine voting for or otherwise supporting a party that has the history that this one does. And, some of the older politicians were around and party to the past evil-doings as well, so this is not just a rejection based on history.
When I spoke to people, even cited cases of murdered professors, drowned political dissdents, etc… the response was “That was a long time ago.”
Has the KMT control of education and media been so successful in this country that young, supposedly educated people can toss events of only a few decades ago into the “not relevant due to historical ditance pile”?
Nothing in my years in Taiwan have disspointed me as much as the attitudes towards the election that I saw in friends, co-workers and even the people I work for.
Shame on the DPP for using ethnicity to divide.
Shame on the KMT for being evil
Shame on the Taiwanese people, WSR or BSR for allowing themsleves to forget what only so recently has happened here, to your own people.
Do you care? What does that say about you?
Those who are under the sway of the KMT have been fed a steady stream of pro-KMT rhetoric that promotes “forgiving and forgetting” or “moving way from the past”, but “damn the Japanese to hell for what they did in Nanjing”
rooftop,
Admirable intention, however, if you took away the ethnic issue of BSR and WSR. The KMT and DPP party would be exactly the same. What platform would the DPP use to garner votes. Vote for us because we have a cripple candidate, like Pres. Roosevelt of the USA?
Granted ROC form of democracy is somewhat infintile and leaves a bad taste in our mouth.
But what options do with have. The PRC is the only other example of modern Chinese stable government. But they are commies with about 10+% annual economic growth, which we cannot trust, since 1 million of us live there and invest billions annually.
And how do they repay us by pointing missles at us, while we can barely afford to buy a ship from the USA military.
Notice not once have I mentioned any domestic issues in Taiwan. Like environment, or economic growth, or even education standards, or health care, or social security, or unemployment benefits.
That unfortunately is the political realities of Taiwan. Let’s all focus our attention on things of the past or the Commies and forget about today in Taiwan.
huh?
Please, put the pipe down or stop posting. You can’t do both at once.
[quote=“after smoking a hectare’s worth of grass, ac_dropout”]
The PRC is the only other example of modern Chinese stable government. [/quote]
Good one. Tell that to all the poor souls who’ve rotted to death in mainland jails in the past fifty-five years so that the government could remain “stable.” Tell that to the hundreds of mothers who’ve not seen their sons or daughters since June 4, 1989. I’m sure they’d love to hear all about how “stable” the Chinese government is.
And if you believe that, then you are definitely on something. This is a figure from a country that always reports its annual economic growth in December of the SAME YEAR. This is from a country where save last year when Yunnan was the nonconformist, every single province and territory, including shitholes like Guangxi, Qinghai and Shanxi, reported GNP growth rates HIGHER than the national average.
[quote=“after pausing to pack some fresh rocks, ac_dropout”]
That unfortunately is the political realities of Taiwan. Let’s all focus our attention on things of the past or the Commies and forget about today in Taiwan.[/quote]
Whatever it takes to put the house in order. With bigotted cranks like you around, who could blame the Taiwanese?
western running dog crypto-imperialists seem to know whats better for Taiwan than the people living there… as usual.
That’s great, I haven’t been called that in at least 20 years. Makes me feel young again. :raspberry:
BTW, since the KMT was so good at distorting and banning the truth, and then inventing it’s own, it wouldn’t be surprising if many of us knew more about modern Chinese history than many locals. I wouldn’t say our ideas about how to run the place are better, but we might have a better idea about why things are the way they are. I suppose that the dear CCP has not filled your head with nonsense and that you stand in the clear realization of the Truth?
Put the pipe down, and back away from the keyboard!
The KMT reinforced its rule by doling out jobs and contracts to the Taiwanese middle class and to local factions. And the KMT after about 1970 was much less brutal than it had been in the tense 1940s and 1950s. If you then add in the effective brainwashing carried out by the schools and the military, it’s not too hard to understand how folks here might not think the KMT is so awful.
You should also keep in mind that at least the American view of the KMT is very much colored by the views of Edgar Snow and Barbara Tuchman. They portrayed the KMT as being a corrupt, feudal regime. Modern scholarship gives a much more nuanced view of the KMT, especially in the 1930s.
These days though there are plenty of Taiwanese out there who will give you an earful on how oppressed they were.
Now that Chen has (thankfully) won the election, it’s time to start roasting the DPP. Outside of the identity issue, they have turned themselves into a mirror image of the KMT.
Actually it is the pan-blues who use ethnicity the most. They have always used it and then denounced the use of it to weaken the DPP’s ability to overcome the false consciousness among so many Taiwanese. I actually wrote a 1600 word piece for a Chinese newspaper about this, which I won’t inflict on you all, (unless you really want me to). But please don’t think that the blues don’t manipulate the ethnic question. They are far better at it than the DPP.
It is interesting that the real pan-green ethnic thugs are the TSU and, as you probably know, the TSU are all renegades from the KMT.
Absolutely correct. They are shameless. I did see some voting stats though recently showing that the number of WSR who voted Green grew significantly in the last election. So this tactic may be less effective now.
Also absolutely correct. And if you read their propaganda, you can’t help but noticing how their nationalism is an inverted version of Chinese nationalism.
I would say that some progress on domestic development has been made here over the last years. Infrastructure upgrades are under way, the parts of the media under KMT control is gradually freed from that influence, and the education system here is becoming less of a propaganda machine and more educational.
Back to topic, why let the past lie? Who would it benefit? Who would not get justice by leaving the past alone?
The past is with us whatever we want it to be or not. There’s no way of denying what happened here in the past, as the issue will always remain in the shadows, poisoning relations between ethnic groups. I therefore think that the past can’t be let alone. There are issues you have to face up to in order to put behind you.
If the history of this island from 1945 to 1993 was left, who would benefit from it? James Soong, and all the murderers who oppressed the population here. They would go free, and that would send a rather bad message to all trying to build and expand the concept of law here. Moreover, some of the issues at the forefront of the public mind are rooted firmly in the KMT oppression post 1945. (Ethnic rivalry anyone?)
Now, who and what is hurt if the past is left to be? First of all, it will be a clear violation of the rule of law to see people who murdered going free. Secondly, unless the past is faced up to it will still be a festering wound poisoning the inter-ethnic relationships here on this island. Moreover, many people especialy of the older generation vividly rmember the injustices and the grey repression they were subject to. It will be a liberation to many to see the past laid open and the ghosts put to rest. This island as a whole needs to look the ghosts into their eyes and face up to what happened.
That does not mean that any inquiry into the past needs to be witch hunt. It could be done as a peace and reconciliation commision, where everybody openly and truthfully testifying is granted amnesty. The people refusing to do so and refusing to cooperate could then be handed over to the public prosecutor for him to deal with. That way everybody implied will have an interest in disclosing everything as truthfully as possible, while the people refusing to tesify or intentionally lying before the commision will be prosecuted.
This should not apply to corruption cases, which were clearly illegal already back then.
Why don’t you people just give up the ghost and join the USA?
It is obvious that Taiwan is not accepted by the world community as a sovereign nation. That is not going to change unless Taiwan comes to grips with its history. The only way that Taiwan has to move forward is to ask for its Constitutional rights under the US Constitution . . . . .
(Hartzell wrote an excellent article about this at www.atimes.com, but I can’t seem to find the link at the moment.)
Taiwan wants to get a new constitution. Fine, the only way you can do that in a comprehensive fashion is by recognizing US administrative authority and then demanding your US Constitutional rights. Give up the ridiculous notions that Taiwan belongs to the Taiwanese or that the ROC is a legitimate government or that the United Nations is going to admit Taiwan under the name of “Taiwan”, “ROC”, or whatever . . . . . . go back to the post WWII treaties and read what they say!!! The disposition rights over “Formosa and the Pescadores” belong to the USA!!!
You can claim to be “Taiwanese” or “Chinese” because that is an ethnic issue. But you can’t claim any right to the nomenclature of “Republic of China” because the USA has a One China Policy, and the PRC has a One China Principle. At the same time, no one in Taiwan is going to be able to cause any change in that Policy or Principle, so you might as well stop wasting your time in advocating such changes . . . . . The ROC is just a government in exile exercising effective territorial control over an area where it does not hold sovereignty. That is the reality.
Accept reality and you can all get some sort of overseas USA passports. And then ask the US government to set up a war crimes tribunal.
“Accept reality”
Maybe those argueing that Taiwan is actually part of the U.S. should take their own sage advice. Hartzell probably drank too much seawater on the way over. Im not sure how much magic kool-aid the rest of you have been downing to actually believe his hypothesis.
[quote=“cmdjing”]“Accept reality”
Maybe those argueing that Taiwan is actually part of the U.S. should take their own sage advice. Hartzell probably drank too much seawater on the way over. I’m not sure how much magic kool-aid the rest of you have been downing to actually believe his hypothesis.[/quote]
typical compent for the rule of law, international treaties etc. Yup, he would be better off in china, as the culture suits him better than Taiwan or the US.
The Cairo declaration, Potsdam, the Japanese Imperial rescript, the Taipei treaty, the 1972 sino-japanese joint communique, etc all of which clearly state that Taiwan is part of China. Only the San Francsico treaty states that Taiwan is not part of Japan but doesn’t say that Taiwan is an independant country let alone a U.S. protectorate. The ommission can clearly be filled in by other precendent. But what are numerous other treaties when you can continue to cling onto the delusional pipe-dream offered by a blind man’s tortuous interpretation of the San Francisco treaty that Taiwan’s status is either indeterminate, independent, or property of the U.S.
A communique is not a treaty, Neither is the Potsdam declaration or the Cairo declaration for that matter.
Yet again, the chinese comtempt for international treaties… When will they ever learn.
Of course, the same could be said of the DPP and LDH:
Forgive the Japanese for WWII but damn the WSR for 228.
As I like to say, the most difficult thing in the world is to never be a hypocrite.
Of course, the same could be said of the DPP and LDH:
Forgive the Japanese for WWII but damn the WSR for 228.
As I like to say, the most difficult thing in the world is to never be a hypocrite.[/quote]
Well, in Taiwan the Japanese behaved quite well, and can be thanked for laying the foundations for the modern Taiwanese economy.
They repressed the locals, but did not engage in a systematic slaughter of the elite.
Therefore while their militaristic ways in times past should be condemmed, I would be careful for condemming them for what they did here.
Of course, the same could be said of the DPP and LDH:
Forgive the Japanese for WWII but damn the WSR for 228.
As I like to say, the most difficult thing in the world is to never be a hypocrite.[/quote]
Well, in Taiwan the Japanese behaved quite well, and can be thanked for laying the foundations for the modern Taiwanese economy.
They repressed the locals, but did not engage in a systematic slaughter of the elite.
Therefore while their militaristic ways in times past should be condemmed, I would be careful for condemming them for what they did here.[/quote]
You’re right. But I didn’t limit my remark re the Japanese to what they did here.
The japanese are liked by the older people here, but yes they were pigs in China and SE Asia. I was narrowly focusing on Taiwan.
And so the Japanese imperial rescript(official surrender signed aboard the U.S.S. Missouri) isn’t binding? Funny, I wasn’t aware the Japanese continued fighting onwards until 1951.
And the Taipei treaty isn’t binding either? The San Francisco treaty doesn’t dilineate China as the owner of Taiwan, but neither does it say Taiwan is an independant country by ommission. It is simple enough to look at other precedents to naturally assume that Taiwan would revert to Chinese control. But obviouslly logic doesn’t matter when you are dead set on maintaining that Taiwan is not a part of China despite all the facts contrary.
P.S. The cairo and potsdam declarations are perfectly binding, they aren’t treaties but rather the allied victory conditions. Japan accepted them as terms for its surrender. Come to think of it, the Taiwan Relations Act isn’t a treaty either. It is only U.S. domestic law so by your reasoning it can be ignored at whim.