How can TW seek independence if it is already independent?

Already independent? Then how could independence still be sought?

I’ll save you the typical back-and-forth crap by cutting right to the chase for ya:

Not seeking independence, just seeking recognition? Then why no recognition, why not in the UN like a normal country?

PRC meddling? How could PRC meddle in TW if TW is already independent?

PRC being appeased? Why would PRC be appeased? Nobody would not recognize Vietnam even if PRC said no. Clearly PRC is not appeased on all issues. Why TW?

Already independent? Then how could it still be seeking the first thing that independent countries have: recognition?

呵呵呵.

I seriously doubt you’re making a real argument here, but for the sake of it.

Are you actualy quoting someone who said that Taiwan is independent, but is seeking independence. As noted in another thread, I realise the PRC is illogical enough to be simultaneously saying that Taiwan is separate from and part of China, but I am unaware of people on Taiwan saying that Taiwan is simultaneously independent and not independent.

That is the case. Taiwan’s independence is defacto but not dejure. Part of dejure independence could include recognition by the UN, but I’m sure you no very well that Taiwan has not been allowed in the UN thanks to opposition from the PRC.

You really need to ask (or just trolling)? The PRC is meddling with Taiwan’s international relations. Taiwan being independent doesn’t stop that.

Because the PRC gives countries a choice. Recognise us or them, but not both. To most countries the advantages of recognising China outweigh the advantages of recognising Taiwan.

That’s the difference between defacto and dejure independence of course.

This whole post looks like a complete troll. If it’s not, it displays incredible ignorance.

Brian

Troll? Nah… just some balance for typical TIer trolling on this board.

[quote][quote]
PRC being appeased? Why would PRC be appeased? Nobody would not recognize Vietnam even if PRC said no. Clearly PRC is not appeased on all issues. Why TW?
[/quote]

Because the PRC gives countries a choice. Recognise us or them, but not both. To most countries the advantages of recognising China outweigh the advantages of recognising Taiwan.
[/quote]

Do you seriously think countries would go along if PRC picked some other random existing country and said recognize us or them, but not both, and it would work? Do you? BS. You know it.

We are not talking about other random hypothetical situations and you should stop trolling by going off topic… we are talking about China and Taiwan…

Stick to the issues you start… :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Does the PRC rule Taiwan, does it have any military or civial servants here, or a govenor…? Taiwan has defacto independence, if it didn’t then why are all those foreign rep offices doing here, issuing visa, passports, providing consular services, trade, education and other servces?

These offices are not called consulates as in Hong Kong because Taiwan is not a part of China. They are nat called embassies because Taiwan has not declared formal independence… it has declared that it is a separate sovereign state… but of course you will ignore that.

Would you recognize a country using a name owned by the Beijing government in the UN? Would you recognize a country that claim to have territory include that of China and Outer Mongolia?

The problem with Taiwan as an independent country is her name and her constitution. They are self-built prison Taiwanese not able to break out.
.

[quote=“Chou”]Would you recognize a country using a name owned by the Beijing government in the UN? Would you recognize a country that claim to have territory include that of China and Outer Mongolia?

The problem with Taiwan as an independent country is her name and her constitution. They are self-built prison Taiwanese not able to break out.
.[/quote]
Now that’s a good argument.

Perhaps the first step for Taiwan to be accepted, despite China’s protest, is to declare failure.
“We lost. The commies won. We give up all rights and claim to the territory currently held and controlled by the government of what is called the People’s Republic of China and recognize their soverignty over that land and their constitution.” And then define the geographic boundaries of all the land except Taiwan and the smaller islands it controls.

No need to claim independence, that may start a war, but at least that would allow the UN and other countries to acknowledge Taiwan and China at the same time.

Yeah, but the moment there was any move to officially renounce title to the mainland, the PRC authorities would take that as being a move toward independence and BOOM goes Taiwan.

[quote=“Chou”]Would you recognize a country using a name owned by the Beijing government in the UN? Would you recognize a country that claim to have territory include that of China and Outer Mongolia?

The problem with Taiwan as an independent country is her name and her constitution. They are self-built prison Taiwanese not able to break out.
.[/quote]

Well, the name and the territory indications should be changed. And yes, that would lead to an escalation of tensions.

HOWEVER:

  1. The names of the countries are not the same. One is the People’s Republic of China, the other is the Republic of China. There are also two Koreas and there were two Germanies for many years.

  2. Just because a country claims territory that it doesn’t control doesn’t make it less of a country. India claims parts of China, China claims parts of India. Both India and Pakistan claim the whole Kashmir but both only control a part. So while the claims of the ROC over Mongolia and all of the territory controlled by the PRC are extravagant and outdated (and doubtlessly would be changed if it were not for PRC pressure), this in itself is not enough to guarantee non-recognition.

This is all besides the point that the second posting in this thread has already answered the original posting…which was in itself started by Zeugmite by his frustration of not being able to answer how there can be a “reunification” if there has naver been a split LOLOLOLOL :laughing:

Still waiting for an answer (that will not come) to that question :laughing:

Stop stalling. Just answer the question. De jure independence is all anybody ever cares about. There is no “de facto” independence save for that which soothes the pained psyche of a rejected TIer that has to face the lack of true recognized independence that every other country in the world has. Not being recognized has a direct relation to TIers hiding behind the name of “China,” the flag of “China,” the territorial claim of “China,” the constitution of “China,” everything of “China;” and it doesn’t matter that they want (but aren’t willing to risk the consequences) to shed those now, it just matters these things are still there as an indelible stamp of the true political lineage unterminated and undeniable, so evident that every devout TIer can only blot it out with his daily mantra of “already independent” . The 50-year exercise in failure known as the TI movement has produced this question that continues to boggle TIer mind. None of you even come close to answering.

This is obviously becoming a philosophical debate. Might I leave some words of advise.

為 無 為 , 事 無 事 , 味 無 味

25 countries recognizes ROC as a de jure independent country.

I disagree with your statement regarding the constitution, name, etc. These things needs to be modified to suit external realities, not modified so that taiwan will be an independent country. What you are doing is somewhat similar to writing the sky is black on paper, and saying “the sky is black, because this paper state it”

So what you’re saying is the original post in this thread was made disingenuously and solely as provocation rather than as an actual genuine question?

[quote=“Decapitus”]25 countries recognizes ROC as a de jure independent country.

I disagree with your statement regarding the constitution, name, etc. These things needs to be modified to suit external realities, not modified so that taiwan will be an independent country. What you are doing is somewhat similar to writing the sky is black on paper, and saying “the sky is black, because this paper state it”[/quote]

Exactly, 25 countries recognize (more precisely did not stop to recognize) the ROC, that original, made-in-China ROC with all of its “Chinese” trappings, as the legitimate ruler of all China, and not the non-existent non-declared “Republic of Taiwan.”

It is rather not “the sky is black because on this paper it is stated,” it is that a man got a botched sex change and believes he is “already a woman.”

No, Tetsuo, I am asking you how can TW still seek independence (or whatever comes with independence) if it is “already independent”? Would you care to answer in the terms which I define? Only fair isn’t it?

If you don’t want to answer that, then answer why various government people have said both that seeking independence is important and that Taiwan is already independent with no actual change in Taiwan’s status in between?

I’ve answered quite sufficiently already.

Taiwan already has defacto independence. It is seeking dejure independence.

It’s very simple really.

Brian

To zeuqmite,

When you say

[quote=“zeugmite”][quote=“Decapitus”]25 countries recognizes ROC as a de jure independent country.

I disagree with your statement regarding the constitution, name, etc. These things needs to be modified to suit external realities, not modified so that taiwan will be an independent country. What you are doing is somewhat similar to writing the sky is black on paper, and saying “the sky is black, because this paper state it”[/quote]

Exactly, 25 countries recognize (more precisely did not stop to recognize) the ROC, that original, made-in-China ROC with all of its “Chinese” trappings, as the legitimate ruler of all China, and not the non-existent non-declared “Republic of Taiwan.”

It is rather not “the sky is black because on this paper it is stated,” it is that a man got a botched sex change and believes he is “already a woman.”[/quote]

But the reality is that ROC does NOT rule all of China. No matter what people say or do ROC rules Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu. The constitution in effect might as well be a piece of paper stating that a steam engine is state-of-the-art technology.

It is rather not “a man got a botched sex change and believes he is already a woman.” It is that “a man who has his appendages chopped off claiming that he no longer has arms and legs”

You realize that by your analogy, the ROC is merely claiming to be a truncated “China” and not a new country independent from China?

I think more realistically my analogy is correct, and you will agree if you think about it.

[quote=“zeugmite”]You realize that by your analogy, the ROC is merely claiming to be a truncated “China” and not a new country independent from China?

I think more realistically my analogy is correct, and you will agree if you think about it.[/quote]

“China” is a name. ROC now represents the 23 million people and Taiwan, not 1.3 billion people and mongolia.

If you strip a car down to its engines, do you still call the engine a car?