How do you say "phrase" in Chinese?

[bob]

@sjcma

[quote=“bob”](By the way, we resolved the character/word thing by distinguishing between a compound “character” such as the ren2 (person) and zhu3 (master) which together become zhu4 (live), and a compond “word” such as “di4qiu2” (earth). The only question remaining, if we got that right, is, to which does the term ci2 refer?)

Ci2 refers to the latter.[/quote]

Thanks. Any idea what to call the former?

I seem to have the attention of a few good people so may as well ask how to say “phrasal verb” while we are at it.

Times lists it as dong4ci2 duan3yu3 but that contradicts somewhat the idea that duan3yu3 can substitute for pian4yu3 in verb phrase (dong4ci2 pian4yu3).

A verb phrase and a phrasal verb are of course two very different animals.

[Dragonbones]

@bob

[quote=“sjcma”][quote=“bob”](By the way, we resolved the character/word thing by distinguishing between a compound “character” such as the ren2 (person) and zhu3 (master) which together become zhu4 (live), and a compond “word” such as “di4qiu2” (earth). The only question remaining, if we got that right, is, to which does the term ci2 refer?)

Ci2 refers to the latter.[/quote]

Thanks. Any idea what to call the former?[/quote]

Yes. “Character” will do. If you need to contrast it with monosomatic (non-compound) characters, then you can call it a compound character, as you already have above.

[Chris]

@ironlady

Divide and conquer. Chinese “sentences” actually tend to be sections between commas in one breathless long paragraph that centers around a topic (if you’re lucky).

Well said!

The word “juzi”, what the dictionary defines as “sentence”, is in everyday usage also used to mean “phrase” or “clause”, or any collection of words, so it seems.

When reading Chinese, forget everything you ever learned about punctuation in school. In Chinese, the concept of a run-on sentence or comma-splice doesn’t exist. Consider yourself lucky if you find a paragraph with a period at a place other than at the end.

In Chinese, a comma sometimes function as in English; however, sometimes it behaves as a semicolon, period, or a divider between topic and comment. Periods are sometimes placed at the end of a dependent clause. Semicolons are often used to demarcate parallel phrases. Six-dot ellipses are used after lists of words to denote “etc.”. Question marks are often used after indirect questions (e.g. “How much it costs? and how big it is? are the major determining factors.”). Years ago I thought that this was a product of poor education and ignorance. Nowadays I’m increasingly convinced that it’s just a feature of the language.

All this makes teaching proper English punctuation that much more difficult - local students simply weren’t instilled with the same ideas as we English speakers were about sentence structure when undergoing secondary education.

[bob]

@Dragonbones

[quote=“bob”][quote=“sjcma”][quote=“bob”](By the way, we resolved the character/word thing by distinguishing between a compound “character” such as the ren2 (person) and zhu3 (master) which together become zhu4 (live), and a compond “word” such as “di4qiu2” (earth). The only question remaining, if we got that right, is, to which does the term ci2 refer?)

Ci2 refers to the latter.[/quote]

Thanks. Any idea what to call the former?[/quote]

Yes. “Character” will do. If you need to contrast it with monosomatic (non-compound) characters, then you can call it a compound character, as you already have above. [/quote]

There is no Chinese equivalent to monosomatic and, I am guessing, disomatic? Is that possible?

[bob]

[quote=“Chris”] The word “juzi”, what the dictionary defines as “sentence”, is in everyday usage also used to mean “phrase” or “clause”, or any collection of words, so it seems.
…

All this makes teaching proper English punctuation that much more difficult - local students simply weren’t instilled with the same ideas as we English speakers were about sentence structure when undergoing secondary education.[/quote]

I think I need to start at the beginning.

How would I say (to describe English)?

A sentence is a group of words.

It contains a subject and a verb.

It expresses a comptete idea.

It is followed by a period, exclamation mark, or question mark.

The subject and/or verb may be assumed.

[ironlady]

[quote=“bob”]

How would I say (to describe English)?

A sentence is a group of words.[/quote]
YI Ju Hua Shi yoU YI XIE cI suo ZaochenG de*. [“A sentence is composed of a number of words.”]

It contains a subject and a verb.

mei Ju Hua YINGGAI you zhucI hE DongcI [“Each sentence should have a subject and a verb”]

It expresses a complete idea.

YI Ju Hua biaoShi YI ge* waNzheng de Niantou* [A sentence expresses a complete idea]

It is followed by a period, exclamation mark, or question mark.

YI Ju Hua HouMian Yao Fang JuHao, DouHao haIShi WenHao. [At the end you must put a period, comma or question mark.]

The subject and/or verb may be assumed.

zhucI Huo DongcI kenenG Shi yinXing de*, Bu biaodA CHUlaI. [Subject or verb can be implied, not expressed.]

The usual caveats…non-native speaker…yadda yadda…improve it…yadda yadda…YMMV…

[Dragonbones]

@bob

There is no Chinese equivalent to monosomatic and, I am guessing, disomatic? Is that possible?

There are such terms, both ancient and modern, but they aren’t colloquial terms, so unless you’re planning on reading hardcore etymology I’d hold off on learning them for a while if I were you.

[ironlady]

@Dragonbones

[quote=“bob”]There is no Chinese equivalent to monosomatic and, I am guessing, disomatic? Is that possible?

There are such terms, both ancient and modern, but they aren’t colloquial terms, so unless you’re planning on reading hardcore etymology I’d hold off on learning them for a while if I were you.[/quote]

Yes. Your students will thank you. Unless they’ve got some kind of pool going on what you’re going to come out with next.

[sjcma]

@bob

[quote=“sjcma”] Actually, I don’t consider myself a native speaker of any language…but that’s another story.

Please, that sounds like an interesting story…[/quote]
I immigrated at an awkward age where I never finished enough schooling in my mother tongue to be sufficiently native but was just old enough so that learning the language of my adopted land was not exactly the easiest of affairs. I also lived somewhere else in between and picked up a bit of that language in the meantime. Through chance and coincidence, I now use all three languages more or less equally each day. However, I speak all three with non-native accents and there’s always more to learn.

[quote=“bob”]It would be if we were asking and answering our own questions. One of the clauses should be in the passive if both take the subject “we” no? "When we ‘are asked’ a [XXX] we answer with a [YYY] " Here’s what we had…

Dang1 wo3men yong4 [XXX] lai2 wen4 wen4ti2 de shi2hou4, wo3men chang2chang2 hui4 yong4 [YYY] lai2 zuo4 jian3duan3 de hui2da2.

(be) worked better as a translation into English but it isn’t actually what was said in Chinese. Maybe I just need to forget the active/passive distinction as I think it would apply to this sentence, because in Chinese that distinction isn’t made, at least here.[/quote]
Oops, I made a mistake here. The second wo3men should have been dui4fang1 (the other party). Sorry, I’m not used to working strictly in Pinyin. It’s a real mental leap from reading characters.

So it should be: Dang1 wo3men yong4 [XXX] lai2 wen4 wen4ti2 de shi2hou4, dui4fang1 chang2chang2 hui4 yong4 [YYY] lai2 zuo4 jian3duan3 de hui2da2.

When we use XXX to ask question, other party often will use YYY to make simple answer.

Zuo4 by itself means “to do” but also “to make”, as in using an ingredient to make the final product. Here, the ingredient is YYY and the final product is the answer.

[sjcma]

@bob

[quote=“sjcma”][quote=“bob”](By the way, we resolved the character/word thing by distinguishing between a compound “character” such as the ren2 (person) and zhu3 (master) which together become zhu4 (live), and a compond “word” such as “di4qiu2” (earth). The only question remaining, if we got that right, is, to which does the term ci2 refer?)

Ci2 refers to the latter.[/quote]

Thanks. Any idea what to call the former?[/quote]
What DB said, or if you want the Chinese version, zi4 is more than good enough. Trust me, you don’t want to dig deeper.

[quote=“bob”]Times lists it as dong4ci2 duan3yu3 but that contradicts somewhat the idea that duan3yu3 can substitute for pian4yu3 in verb phrase (dong4ci2 pian4yu3).

A verb phrase and a phrasal verb are of course two very different animals.[/quote]

Verb phrase = dong4ci2 pian4yu3
Phrasal verb = pian4yu3 dong4ci2

Your students will have nightmares for decades…

EDIT: Here’s a text book on phrasal verbs written in Chinese. In case you’re wondering, the Chinese title is “Duan3yu3 Dong4ci2”.

[bob]

@ironlady

Yes. Your students will thank you. Unless they’ve got some kind of pool going on what you’re going to come out with next.

Onomatopoeia and gestures make great mnemonics, or how I learned to quit analyzing and love TPRS - a summary of GA Wells “The Origin of Language”?

(honestly, that is what I taught today)

[bob]

@sjcma

I immigrated at an awkward age where I never finished enough schooling in my mother tongue to be sufficiently native but was just old enough so that learning the language of my adopted land was not exactly the easiest of affairs. I also lived somewhere else in between and picked up a bit of that language in the meantime. Through chance and coincidence, I now use all three languages more or less equally each day.

Wow.

However, I speak all three with non-native accents and there’s always more to learn.

And teach. I learn something from you almost every day. I will eventually compile all of this stuff you and the others contribute into “a useful words and sentences you need to talk about English grammar in Chinese” list. In fact, I’ll start now…

[bob]

Grammar Vocabulary

Action Verb - xing2 dong4 dong4ci2
Active - zhu3dong4
Adjective - xing2rong2ci2
Adverb - fu4ci2
Answer - hui2da2
Auxiliary Verb - zhu4dong4ci2
Be Verb - be dong4ci2
Clause - zi3ju4
Command - ming4ling4
Contraction - suo1xie3
Form - xing2shi4
Gerund - dong4 ming2 ci2
Grammar - wen2fa3
Inflected Form -
Infinitive - bu4 ding4 ci2
Information Question - xun4xi2yi2wen4ju4
Information Question Words - yi2wen4ci2
ing form - I just use… “ing” xing2shi4
Intransitive Verb - bu4ji2wu4 dong4ci2
Linking Verb - lian2xi4 dong4ci2
Main Verb - zhu3dong4ci2
Modal Verb - qing2tai4 dong4ci2
Negative Answer/ sentence/ question - Fou3ding4 de hui2da2/ ju4zi/
yi2wen4ju4
Noun - ming2ci2
Object - shou4ci2
Or question - huo4shi4 yi2wen4ju4
Parts of Speech - ge4zhong3ci2lei4
Passive - bei4dong4
Past Form - guo4qu4 xing2shi4
Past Participle - guo4qu4 fen1ci2
Past Progressive - guo4qu4jin4xing2shi4
Phrasal Verb - pin4yu3 dong4ci2/ duan3yu3 dong4ci2
Phrase - pian4yu3/ ci2zu3 duan3yu3
Prefix - zi4shou3
Preposition - jie4xi4ci2
Present Perfect - xian4zai4wan2chun2shi4
Present Perfect Progressive - xian4zai4wan2chun2jin4xing2shi4
Present Progressive - xian4zai4jin4xing2shi4
Question - yi2wen4ju4
Sentence - ju4zi
Short answer - duan3 de hui2da2
Simple Form of the Verb - yuen2xing2 dong4ci2 or jian3dan1 xing2shi4
Simple Future - wei4lai2shi2
Simple Past - guo4qu4shi2
Simple Present - xian4zai4shi2
Statement - chen2shu4ju4
Structure - jie2gou4
Subject - zhu3ci2
Transitive Verb - ji2wu4 dong4ci2
Verb - dong4ci2
Verb Tense - dong4ci2shi2tai4
Yes/No Question - dui4bu2dui4/shi4bu2shi4/ hao3 bu4 hao3. yao4 bu2 yao4 etc. wen4ti2

Useful Sentences

1. A sentence is a group of words.
   Juzi* Shi you Yi chuN weNZi.
   or
   YI Ju Hua Shi yoU YI XIE cI suo ZaochenG de*. [“A sentence is composed of a number of words.”]
   (Both REA (Resident expert approved))

2. Juzi* you baohaN zhucI GEN DongcI
   or
   mei Ju Hua YINGGAI you zhucI hE DongcI [“Each sentence should have a subject and a verb”]
   (Both REA)

3. It expresses a complete idea.
   Juzi* biaodA waNquaN de* shangfa
   or
   YI Ju Hua biaoShi YI ge* waNzheng de Niantou* [A sentence expresses a complete idea]
   (REA)

4. In short answers and commands the subject and/or verb may be assumed based on the context.
   Zhu3ci2 gen dong4ci2 chang2chang2, GENJu shangXiaweN Bei (TebiE Zai MingLing gen1 duan de* huIdA) jia3she4.

zhucI Huo DongcI kenenG Shi yinXing de*, Bu biaodA CHUlaI. [Subject or verb can be implied, not expressed.]

(NEITHER EXACTLY REA APPROVED - SORRY)

5. The subject of a sentence performs the action of the verb, or is described by the rest of the sentence.
   zhucI biaoXian DongcI de* DongZuo, HuoShi XianXia de* cI xinGronG zhucI.
   (REA)

6. YI Ju Hua HouMian Yao Fang JuHao, JING haIShi WenHao. [At the end you must put a period, exclamation mark, or question mark.]

7. A phrase is a group of words.
   Pianyu Shi you Yi chuN weNZi.

8. It doesn’t have a subject. It doesn’t have a verb.
   Pianyu meiyoU baohaN zhucI GEN DongcI

9. A phrase functions as one part of speech.
   Pianyu GONGnenG Shi Bei Yong laI DANG chenG gEzhongcILei de* qIZHONG zhiYI
   (Sorry iron lady had to slip that one in there.)

10. The short answer to a “who” or "what’ question is often a noun phrase.
    Shei2 gen1 shen2me5 wen4ti2 de5 duan3 de5 hui2da2 chang2chang2 shi4 yi1 ge5 ming2ci2 pian4yu4.
    or
    Yao jianduan di* huIdA Wen “sheI” Huo “sheNme*” de YI Ju Hua, pinGchanG Yao Yong minGzi* Pianyu huIdA.

11. 2. The short answer to a “where” or “when” question is often a prepositional phrase.
       Zai4 na3li3 gen1 shen2me5 shi2hou5 wen4ti2 de5 duan3 de5 hui2da2 chang2chang2 shi4 yi1 ge5 jie4xi4ci2 de pian4yu3.
       or
       Yao jianDuan di* huIdA Wen “na li” Huo “sheNme* shIHou” de* YI Ju Hua, pinGchanG Yong JiacI Pianyu （介词片语）．

12. The short answer to a why (for what purpose) question is often an infinitive phrase.
    Wei4shen2me5 (shen2me5 mu4di4) wen4ti2 de5 duan3 de5 hui2da2 chang2chang2 shi4 yi1ge5 bu4ding4ci2 de5 pian4yu3.
    or
    Yao jianDuan di* huIdA Wen “WeisheNme*” (weIhE) de* YI Ju Hua, pinGchanG Yao Yong BuDingcI Pianyu. (动名词片语）．

13)The answer to a “how” (by what means) question is often a by + gerund phrase.
Zen3me5 (yong4 shen2me5 fang1fa2) wen4ti2 de5 duan3 de hui2 da2 chang2chang2 shi4 “by” + dong4ming2ci2.
or
Yao huIdA Wen “rU hE” de* YI Ju Hua, pinGchanG Yong “by” JIA DongminGcI

14. To make yes/no questions you take the first word of the verb phrase and put it at the beginning of the sentence.
    Ba3 yi1 ge5 cun2xu4shou1ming2 gai3wei2 yes/no (ma5/shi4 bu2 shi4/ dui4 bu2 dui4/ yao4 bu2 yao4 etc.) de5 yi2wen4ju4 ba3 (cong dong4ci2
    pian4yu3) di4-yi1 ge5 zhu3 dong4ci2 fang4 zai4 ju4zi5 qian2mian4.
    or
    Yao Wen Shifou WentI, zhi Yao ba DongcI Pianyu de* DiYI ge* cI FangZai Na Ju Hua Zui qiaNMian.

15. Infinitive phrases function as noun or adverb phrases.
    Bu4ding4ci2 de5 pian4yu3 gong1neng2 shi4 ming2ci2 pian4yu3 hai2shi2 fu4ci2 pian4yu3.
    or
    bUDing (cI) Pianyu keyi DANG minGcI Pianyu Huo FuminGcI Pianyu.

[bob]

And today’s assignment, should you choose to accept…

Grammar is a description of the relationship between words in a sentence.

It will perhaps amuse you to hear how I would express this now.

Juzi* you zi4. Dui bU Dui?

Dui

TAmen* you GUANXi. Dui bU Dui?

Dui?

weNfa xinGronG Zhei ge* GUANXi.

Oh.

Etc.

[sjcma]

Sounds good. Nice and simple.

[bob]

@sjcma

Sounds good. Nice and simple.

Hence…

T - Juzi* you zi4. Dui bU Dui?

S - Dui

T - TAmen* you GUANXi. Dui bU Dui?

S - Dui?

T - weNfa xinGronG Zhei ge* GUANXi.

S - Oh. you sheNme GUANXi?

T - you ge4 zhong3, keShi mei YI ge* Juzi* you JIben de*

S- JIben de*?

T - zhucI GEN DongCI Shi JIben de.

S - zhucI?

T - zhucI biaoXian DongcI de* DongZuo, HuoShi XianXia de* cI xinGronG zhucI.

S - zhucI biaoXian DongcI de* DongZuo?

T- Dui. wo gei ni Lizi…

“Wei Wei zuo le5.”

S - hao

T - sheI zuo le?

S - Wei Wei.

T - Wei Wei shi4 zhucI

Wei Wei Zuo sheNme*?

S - Zuo.

T - “Zuo” Shi DongcI. “Wei Wei” Shi zhucI. mei YI ge* JucI you zhucI, you DongcI. Juzi* Shi waNquaN de* zhuYi. 'Wei Wei" bU Shi waNquaN de* zhuYi. TA Zuo sheNme? rUguo ni zhi SHUO “Wei Wei” women* bU ZHIdao* TA Zuole* sheNme*. “Wei Wei” bU Shi waNquaN de Juzi*

“Zuo” le ye bU Shi waNquaN de zhuYi. SheI Zuo le? “Wei Wei Zoule*,” Zhei Shi waNquaN de* zhuYi. you zhucI, you DongcI. Shi YIge* Juzi*.

S - hao. zhucI de* Zi you qITA de GUANXi ma?

T - you hao DUO.

S - qing gei wo Lizi*

T - DongcI GEN ShoucI. DongcI yingxiang ShoucI.

S - qing gei wo Lizi*

T - BABA CHI Hanbao. “zhucI” Shi BABA, “DongcI” Shi CHI, “Hanbao” Shi ShoucI. dong ma*?

S - Zhe Shi weNfa ma*?

T - Dui.

S - ZHONGweN meIyou weNfa.

T - DANG raN you ba*. ni CHI Hanbao ma*?

S - CHI

T - Hanbao CHI Ni ma*?

S - DANG raN bU Shi ba*!

T - ni CHI Hanbao ke3 shi4 Hanbao bU CHI ni. Dui bU Dui?

S - Dui.

T - Zhe Shi weNfa. Zi hE Juzi* JIAN de* GUANXI keyi Yong Zi de XunXu laI biaodA.