How do YOU tell what's art and what's rubbish?

I’ve no way of telling if something’s art or rubbish. In practically any art form.

This is not an actual problem, because I know what I like and that’s all that really matters. But a recent comment by a friend got me thinking and now I’m curious: people who do distinguish between art and rubbish, whether professionally or just for their own sake, they do seem to have a way of telling. What is that way?

If you’re one of them, do you have a formula for it, a litmus test, or is it just a feeling? You’re prof. Higgins and you got your Eliza Doolittle in front of you. How would you teach her to tell the difference?

And giving lots of examples without actually pointing to the mechanism behind the choice doesn’t work. Like, “This song by xxx is a masterpiece, and this song by xxx is junk. Get it?”, doesn’t help until you know why?

[quote=“tash”]I’ve no way of telling if something’s art or rubbish. In practically any art form.

This is not an actual problem, because I know what I like and that’s all that really matters. But a recent comment by a friend got me thinking and now I’m curious: people who do distinguish between art and rubbish, whether professionally or just for their own sake, they do seem to have a way of telling. What is that way?

If you’re one of them, do you have a formula for it, a litmus test, or is it just a feeling? You’re prof. Higgins and you got your Eliza Doolittle in front of you. How would you teach her to tell the difference?

And giving lots of examples without actually pointing to the mechanism behind the choice doesn’t work. Like, “This song by xxx is a masterpiece, and this song by xxx is junk. Get it?”, doesn’t help until you know why?[/quote]

Personally, I think art (and much of life) is subjective. It’s rubbish if you don’t like it. Possibly, somewhere along the line someone or group of people got together and agreed that some styles were “good” and some were “not so good”. Perhaps it has to do with the innovative use of brushes. Perhaps it has to do with the rhythm of movement in the art and how the lines move. Possibly it has to do with the texture of the paint. Perhaps it has to do with the colors and how they are used to set a mood that is supposed to evoke feelings. I suppose “good” art do these things effectively.

I took 2 years (if I remember correctly) of art history in college and I still don’t get it. Maybe I’m not cultured enough. Every time I go to a museum, I don’t spend more than 2 minutes per piece. :ponder:

Its subjective. If you want some tangible line, then perhaps you could say you know something is art if someone is willing to pay for it. If someone is not willing to pay for it then well… it could mean anything.

Firstly, I don’t distinguish art from rubbish as there is lots that is most certainly art (ie, a creative work) that is also basically worthless. I look at degrees of creativity, power and skill. But in order to begin you need to know how any particular type of art is composed. Lately I’ve been studying temple decorative arts in Taiwan. At first there was no way to really judge except by impression and intuition. Since I’ve studied visual arts for a long time I trust my intuitions but I also know that to make any kind of pronouncement I need to know more.

So lets take jiannian, the 3D mosaic figures on rooftops. After studying I was able to determine which are handmade, which are partially handmade and which are completely prefab. The prefab are of course rubbish. They are just a glass mold product. The others can be first of all judged on their skill and later on their aesthetic power, though that is a whole lot more difficult to judge.

But not impossible. Art is usually meant to express some kind of beauty, anti-beauty, or sincerity. Early Christian art for example was meant to express simple homey truths and they succeed brilliantly. Judged as high art they fail because they lack refined skill. Judged as powerful expressions of sincere belief they succeed because they have created something original and moving.

A lot of rock and roll is similarly meant to express sincere unadorned passion. How successfully it achieves that effect is one way to judge it.

Energy is another factor to consider. A pure expression of movement or energy is delightful to watch or listen to. We see this a lot in sports. Physical actions that are just so full of power and grace. We don’t and probably can’t really explain why but we know its there.

So for art forms I know I’ll consider skill and technique (and also if these things matter), beauty, energy, and whether the piece seems to have power.

I also realize that taste is something that you can improve, and that what I may find great today I may not tomorrow when I learn more. That’s fine. The Venus de Milo was considered great art by most of the wags of the day when it was found but that’s because there was nothing to compare it too. When more Greek statuary was discovered it was quickly realized that VdM was shoddy.

So for stuff I know nothing about, I reserve judgment, especially if people I respect do appreciate or value it. Initially I couldn’t stand Robert Johnson, the great blues player. Then one day I listened to a two hour special on his music that made me get it.

Anyway, this is a little of how I look at art.

Of course art is subjective; it has to be, or it can’t be art!

For me, art almost always has more to do with QUALITY, or refinement. Watching a professional geisha serve tea, you might know what I mean. At first, as a student in Japan, the idea of taking all day to prepare yourself and your surroundings just to pour a bowl of tea sounds nuts. Japanese tea service is art BECAUSE of all this care. Each movement, each action, is highly deliberate and very, very practiced. And it can engender a serious calming emotional response to partake in such a ceremony.

Maybe a simpler demonstration would be for you to Google Anne Geddes babies and see what comes up. You get all these stunning and whimsical examples of her work, and then some other stuff included that are attempts by amateurs to copy her style. Anne captures a feeling in her photos, an essence of innocence, which others can’t copy. Then there is all the careful attention to detail in color and form and light. You’ll see some photos, too, that make you go, “Oh! Poor kid.” And you know, you just get, that the person who made that photo just does NOT “get” it.

Or, look at the daily photos thread. We have some amazing photographers here on the Flob! Paogao, Belgian Pie, and Fox are three of my favorites. They each have a very distinctive style, but their photos show much more than just snaps I might take of the same subject. There is real artestery in they way they capture their subjects. Paogao’s photos have almost dizzying amounts of movement. That’s movement in a still medium. That just kills me! All three of these guys have different subjects, usually, and different styles, but they all produce ART, IMO, not just pictures.

In painting and sculpture or design, I think sometimes an artist is an artist entirely for his style alone. Sometimes an artist developes a style that is so easily recognizable (including the three photographers mentioned above), that his work is considered art. Take Picasso, for instance. The first time I saw some of his things, I though, “What rubbish!” But when you learn more about his works, and see more of them, you can see that he has a style of his own, he also does realistic work with the same recognizable style, and that what he does that isn’t realistic he is doing very deliberatly and better than anyone else can do it. It became easier for me to see him as a real artist when I saw more of his work, and learned more about what he was doing. Well, some of the “found” art I still don’t have a lot of reguard for. I put together a bike seat and handlebars myself and called it a bull when I was about nine years old. My mom said, “Well I’ll be damned. You must be a genius! Picasso did that, too, and that’s what they called him!” I don’t think my mom thought either of us were very smart!

Anyway, I hope that helps.

I consider a combination of aesthetics, originality, vision and technical skill when determining if something is art or rubbish. I put a particular emphasis on the final category. True art should take true training and practice. If I could have created a particular piece, I wouldn’t view it as terribly good art.

I could care less how long an artist has been at it or how famous. I have an internal switch. If it gets flipped, I like it. If not, I usually try and find what he or she was doing (having taken a few Art History courses as well. If nothing happens, like when I see a TV in room, black and white snow, with baby doll heads on the ground, in maple syrup while the RCA dog looks out the window, then IMVHO, it’s crap. :cactus:
This rocks:

This does not:

If you like something artsy, and you want to spend the money, just buy it … art or rubbish … if you can convince many more people that what you bought is art, it’s a good investment … else it’s still a good investment because you like it … :ponder:

For example … there was this artist that actually managed to make screen prints of soup cans and called it art … he became very famous and the soup cans became very expensive …

One key aspect of art: it rewards continued re-examination; there’s always more to see. Maybe we’re too lazy for further contemplation (I know I am!), but if we did contemplate, there’d be more to see/ feel/ hear.

Quick question for Mu-c-ha Man: do you know any good resources for learning about those mosaic figures? Or when you say “studying”, was that just looking at them for a while? Because I admit that when I go temple touring I have real trouble distinguishing what makes one temple a treasure and another “just another temple” (I get this in Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, and I’d probably get it in the churches of Europe too.)

It’s a combination of over a decade of visits to temples, with study of relevant scholarly material, and interviews with art historians and the like who have told me which temples have the best stonework, woodwork, ceramic, design, etc. Once you’ve seen the authentic stuff it’s pretty easy to recognize the crap (though most temples will have a few really worthy features, such as a old stone column, or some beautiful wood carving, a nice plafond ceiling, and so on).

I have a couple pdfs on the subject of the mosaics. Send me a pm with your email if you want them.

I also recommend Introduction to Traditional Architecture in Taiwan by Lee Ch’ian-Lang and more humbly the Temple Arts & Architecture chapter I wrote for the latest Taiwan Lonely Planet.

Hm… i don’t see the juxtaposition of “art” and “rubbish”: i can think of good art and bad art (“rubbish”), and i also don’t see the juxtaposition of “art” and “worthless”: there is plenty of art that was/is/will be worthless to [some/many/most/all/insert term of your choice] people, and in any era there are also [some/many/insert term of your choice] people who buy things or services that are not art but that they consider worthy (worth something? worthful? anyway, the opposite of worthless). :slight_smile:

About the question “How do YOU tell what’s art?”: i may consider such things as intention, circumstances, effort, skill, effect, and so on - but i don’t always have an answer: there are plenty of situations where i don’t come to any conclusion (because i either don’t care to think more about the matter or because i can’t find some information that i would need to make a decision). :slight_smile:

I appreciate the way you asked that question: it leaves open the possibility that there is no objective definition of “art”. :bow:

I think tash also makes it clear than some stuff is total crap.

What I find fascinating are art forms that I cannot make any kind of sense of. Like Chinese opera for the most part. It is just so alien that I can’t say if a performance is good, bad, or brilliant. But there are people who can, and I find this has made me rethink so much of what I assumed about art before coming to Taiwan. Calligraphy is another form. I have a decent understanding of ink painting from years of visits to the Palace Museum, but I still can’t make any kind of judgement on a piece of calligraphy.

Finally, a thread worthy of bringing me out of hiding (you guys suck at pity partying btw).

For me, art is cyclical.

Of course it must make me feel something. Or it doesn’t have a chance of sticking in my psyche.

But beyond that, it educates me, shivers me paradigms, so to parlay.

But through that education, that taughtable moment, a window appears that makes the next artist (or a previous one) more illuminating.

Now I will continue my non-performance art piece of Tommymockery.

Salut

Really cool responses, people! It’s a bit late to dig into them now, so I’ll leave that for tomorrow.

I will clarify one thing, though. The juxtaposition of “art” vs. “rubbish” is not mine. I just echoed what is often used by people. And it was this common judgement that got me thinking in the first place. Why do we judge art by these extremes to begin with? Why does it have to be one or the other? I don’t think it has to, but I’m asking the question anyway.

The responses are really interesting. Thanks.

EDIT: I believe most of you referred to art in the sense of paintings, sculptures. What about music, videos and film? Some has already been mentioned.

Glad you brought that up :slight_smile: For the same reason i have (in my previous comment) avoided any specific term that would narrow down “art” to something like “products” or “things” and mentioned at one point people who buy “things or services”, because in the context of art in exchange for payment i define a concert performance as a service one can buy, not a thing.
:2cents:

One way (not an exhaustive list) is this, with regard to visual arts (and to a certain extent, other media): If it was created in the 20th century, it’s probably rubbish.

How do people determine what’s great and what’s not? It’s a big club. If you want in, you have to play the game and not rock the boat. You have to talk the talk and appear to believe the bullshit, all the while jostling for position and self-promoting. In this way, it’s not dissimilar to high school or even how the stock market works. As Buffett said, in the short term, the stock market is a voting machine. In the long term, it’s a weighing machine. Most of the artists (and indeed the century itself) that constitute the darlings of 20th century art will be rightly consigned to the dustbin 200 or 300 years from now. Jackson Pollack, Pablo Picasso? Utter shit. Some of my elementary school students can paint better than those guys.

my personal yardstick = if i can do it, its rubbish , if i cant? it MAY be art.

I can write every single play that Shakespeare ever wrote. I have also copied reasonably well as few impressionist paintings and I have seen 3rd year art college students reproduce masterpieces. Hell, you can go to Vietnam and get fabulous reproductions. It’s meaningless.

You and people like GiTs kids can do some forms of art because you have been shown the way. What you cannot do is find the way yourself. That takes genius.

Mucha Man: Are you saying that kids aren’t original or creative? Kids can, and do, draw people with noses on the wrong sides of their faces without ever having seen a Picasso. Likewise, kids can scribble without ever having seen a Pollack.