How does living in Taiwan compare to living in Mainland China?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

People in shops in Taiwan almost always speak Mandarin to me with a very few exceptions in East Taipei or up in Tianmu where there are more foreigners who don’t speak Chinese. Even then, the staff almost always switch to Mandarin if they find out that I can speak Mandarin. People do sometimes switch to Taiwanese when I am around. I haven’t noticed people talking shit about me, nor do people try to befriend me to get me involved in pyramid schemes or sell me vitamins. I guess different people have different experiences.[/quote]

That’s if you can corner somebody in the shop to talk to you first…or shake off the shop assistant who has been following around the store for the last 10 minutes. Hard to win!

22

Question: it has always been my impression -from the times I visited, and that was a long time ago- that as a foreigner, you live in your little expat bubble/foreign community compound, and when you talk about community, you refer to the foreign community. How possible/comfortable/available is it to mingle and live with the locals like we do in Taiwan? How hard is it to set up shop by yourself, I mean, are your apartment choices limited to expat designated areas and must have local backing from employer like Japan, etc?

My impression of living there -from staying with the family in Quanzhou over the holidays- is that it feels more like suburban US or even the ol country: you need a car to move anywhere, less safety on the streets, less community life in getting to know your neighbors and doing neighborly things.

As to career wise, I know that the same stuff we do here with 4 people they do over there with like 20… Chinese all though. 3 out of that 4 are foreigners, but with the pressure to lower costs, I am afraid they will go the same way as China. I have always been told that in my field -translation, editing- they do prefer Overseas Chinese or foreign trained locals over foreigners. I thought about making the jump many years ago as everyone was headed North and mocking us that stayed as “losers”. Dunno, it has worked up so far so good, I haven’t felt the pressure to climb the corporate ladder but as the economy crunches here and salaries get smaller and smaller, I do leave open that possibility as unpalatable as it is. I wouldn’t take my children there, and I am talking about fur children- my pets.

Ermitrude, I am afraid I must say people now are not so much afraid to talk to atoga but rather prefer to make fun of atoga’s Chinese right on your face… yes, when you want to shop for something. Fear has been replaced with mockery. It is really grinding my gears.

23

[quote=“Icon”]Question: it has always been my impression -from the times I visited, and that was a long time ago- that as a foreigner, you live in your little expat bubble/foreign community compound, and when you talk about community, you refer to the foreign community. How possible/comfortable/available is it to mingle and live with the locals like we do in Taiwan? How hard is it to set up shop by yourself, I mean, are your apartment choices limited to expat designated areas and must have local backing from employer like Japan, etc?
[/quote]

You can live anywhere that you want. There are many more options than the foreign compounds. If you take Shanghai as an example, there are plenty of cashed up locals where you would be doing well to call them neighbours. I prefer to speak english so I guess that is what I am looking for in a community, the locals are always obliging if you want to speak chinese there.

24

So, foreigners only live where the money is? What about foreigners doing so-so moneywise?

25

People in shops in Taiwan almost always speak Mandarin to me with a very few exceptions in East Taipei or up in Tianmu where there are more foreigners who don’t speak Chinese. Even then, the staff almost always switch to Mandarin if they find out that I can speak Mandarin. People do sometimes switch to Taiwanese when I am around. I haven’t noticed people talking shit about me, nor do people try to befriend me to get me involved in pyramid schemes or sell me vitamins. I guess different people have different experiences.[/quote]
My experience in Taiwan is similar to Feiren’s. Though I’ve certainly encountered situations as described by Ermintrude, they’re few and far between. I’ve found people generally default to Chinese in shops when I go in, unless it’s a tourist trap or high-end boutique (of whose doors I rarely darken in the first place).

26

[quote=“crimpster”][quote=“Icon”]Question: it has always been my impression -from the times I visited, and that was a long time ago- that as a foreigner, you live in your little expat bubble/foreign community compound, and when you talk about community, you refer to the foreign community. How possible/comfortable/available is it to mingle and live with the locals like we do in Taiwan? How hard is it to set up shop by yourself, I mean, are your apartment choices limited to expat designated areas and must have local backing from employer like Japan, etc?
[/quote]

You can live anywhere that you want. There are many more options than the foreign compounds. If you take Shanghai as an example, there are plenty of cashed up locals where you would be doing well to call them neighbours.[/quote]

I don’t mean to be that snarky laowai, but I’ve lived in what I think are the Shanghainese areas you are referring to and I still found them (the areas) noisy, dirty and at times ignorant of everything non-Chinese.

27

People in shops in Taiwan almost always speak Mandarin to me with a very few exceptions in East Taipei or up in Tianmu where there are more foreigners who don’t speak Chinese. Even then, the staff almost always switch to Mandarin if they find out that I can speak Mandarin. People do sometimes switch to Taiwanese when I am around. I haven’t noticed people talking shit about me, nor do people try to befriend me to get me involved in pyramid schemes or sell me vitamins. I guess different people have different experiences.[/quote]
My experience in Taiwan is similar to Feiren’s. Though I’ve certainly encountered situations as described by Ermintrude, they’re few and far between. I’ve found people generally default to Chinese in shops when I go in, unless it’s a tourist trap or high-end boutique (of whose doors I rarely darken in the first place).[/quote]

I think Ermintrude refers to the phenomena where the staff runs away and hides in fear from the foreigner and push the unlucky chosen to the forefront to deal with the threat of the possibility of dealing with someone who may or may not speak Chinese. That used to happen a lot. People saw you and bolted. You had to chase them.

28

[quote=“Feiren”]
People in shops in Taiwan almost always speak Mandarin to me with a very few exceptions in East Taipei or up in Tianmu where there are more foreigners who don’t speak Chinese. [/quote]

I lived in east Taipei. Weirdo central.

Yes. Almost definitely.

That’s a shame. I left in 08 and people were daft or just young people who didn’t listen (nuthin Taiwanese about that). Mockery is a bit weird and I don’t remember experiencing it despite having utterly mock-worthy Chinese. I don’t get it – I have never and would never mock a Taiwanese person’s English, and certainly not if they were in my country, having a go. It seems so ungenerous.

29

[quote=“Icon”]

I think Ermintrude refers to the phenomena where the staff runs away and hides in fear from the foreigner and push the unlucky chosen to the forefront to deal with the threat of the possibility of dealing with someone who may or may not speak Chinese. That used to happen a lot. People saw you and bolted. You had to chase them.[/quote]

It’s easy to prevent this kind of situation by being firm. Step into the store, find an employee, look them in the eye, and communicate your needs clearly in Mandarin in an audible (not loud voice). Works perfectly for me.

What I often see other foreigners doing is mumbling something incoherent or standing there looking confused. Take the initiative and prevent these annoyances.

30

Yeah, sometimes you can’t be arsed trying to dominate shopboys. Winning at Taiwan is like … y’know, that analogy when you make effort doing something crap. It’s nice to just walk in somewhere, smile, and get a smile back. Life doesn’t need to be a constant ballache.

Most people don’t need advice for buying things in shops, but your useful advice such as ‘be audible’ is absolutely invaluable. You hould perhaps do seminars on ‘cross-cultural communication’ or something awesome like that? I bet loads of people would be interested!

31

Lived in Taichung for three years. Lived in Quanzhou for five months. Xiamen 10 years. Just arrived in Shanghai.

Best times were had in Taichung and the earlier years in Xiamen, when I was a young gun.

Should have moved to Shanghai five years ago. Quanzhou was a waste of time. Xiamen is a retirement island.

If you’re good at what you do, you can make enough money anywhere.

Shanghai is a concrete jungle. Plenty of cities in Taiwan have good access to the mountains and beaches.

I like the money I make in Shanghai (play money compared to the finance guys etc), and I’ll stay a year or two, but I need a combo of city and nature, and Shanghai is just too ‘city’ for me.

32

Depends where in China,
For example, overall they all seem to be have uncivilized manner without much thought. Expect children pissing and pooping out in the open in public places. I’ve seen people pissing on the side of the great wall if china and throw trash over the wall. No one thinks any of it. And forget lines. Lines are not in the vocabulary in CHina, everyone pushes and shoves to anything even silly things like elevators or their subways. Even the elderly are not exempt from this habit. Simple courtesy such as letting people out the elevators or staying in the right side of the escalator if you’re not walking up is not a thing. Luckily, i’m like 215lbs and 6’3 so I just shove away and talk shit when I got to get to something and no one says a thing.
Overall, horrible food compared to Taiwan. And expect diarrhea once a month even if your real careful with food selection. The only place with decent food i’ve had in China is Sichuan (love spicy food) or HK, but HK is not really anything like China.
But, if you are for from the west, they seem to be way more interested in you being from countries such as the US. In Taiwan, foreigners in cities in Taipei are not really special. Many of my white friends gets stares and even often get stopped to ask for a picture in China.
Pollution is also a negative in China pretty much all over. It smells horrible. I had to hang dry most of my clothes when I was there and when I came back to my parents house in Taiwan after my trips they always say my clothes smell weird.
Shopping is limited unless youre in Shanghai or HK. In in beijing, I couldn’t buy anything without hunting for it for hours or days.
If you like to drink or go out clubbing or bar hopping. The alcohol is 99% fake. So thats always a minus for me. But it’s relatively easy to get laid. Well at least it was for me since Im fluent in Chinese and they seen to have a thing for American citizens. Like girls think it’s so cool or interesting.
Hospitals and medical care is a joke. I broke my ankle and I flew back to Taiwan to use NHI instead. And no lines in hospitals in China, its a fight to get to the doctor, its a fight to get your meds, expect to shove and get shove in hospitals if you want to get medical attention.

Overall, I would never be able to live there permanently. I enjoyed all my visits and for a “communist” country, its relatively like the wild wild west. Theres like no police in sight, and you can enjoy all the vices pretty easily.

33

OP: I think you might find the HSBC Expat Explorercomparison between Taiwan and China illuminating.

China scores better than Taiwan on Economics. Overall, China is 12th and Taiwan is 18th. That reflects what many posters are saying here. China is better for your career. Taiwan is where careers go to die.

But Taiwan scores 5th for overall Experience. China is a dismal 36th. This reflects the fact that most foreigners enjoy living in Taiwan.

Family is probably the most important criteria for you. Taiwan scores 15th. China is 30th. Taiwan could do much better in making itself a good place for foreign families, but is better than China.

I think that this survey fairly captures Taiwan’s strengths and weaknesses. Taiwan’s health care is quite good. It’s schools aren’t that great. The quality of life is high, it is incredibly safe in terms of crime, and the people are very friendly. Prospects for wage growth and career advancement are poor. This reflects my personal experience of Taiwan living here since the 1980s.

For me, the biggest difference is that Taiwan is a free society while China is not.

There are an increasing number of long-term China residents moving to Taiwan because they can’t take China anymore but don’t want to leave Asia. In my experience, they love Taiwan.

34

[quote=“Feiren”]OP: I think you might find the HSBC Expat Explorercomparison between Taiwan and China illuminating.

China scores better than Taiwan on Economics. Overall, China is 12th and Taiwan is 18th. That reflects what many posters are saying here. China is better for your career. Taiwan is where careers go to die.

But Taiwan scores 5th for overall Experience. China is a dismal 36th. This reflects the fact that most foreigners enjoy living in Taiwan.

Family is probably the most important criteria for you. Taiwan scores 15th. China is 30th. Taiwan could do much better in making itself a good place for foreign families, but is better than China.

I think that this survey fairly captures Taiwan’s strengths and weaknesses. Taiwan’s health care is quite good. It’s schools aren’t that great. The quality of life is high, it is incredibly safe in terms of crime, and the people are very friendly. Prospects for wage growth and career advancement are poor. This reflects my personal experience of Taiwan living here since the 1980s.

For me, the biggest difference is that Taiwan is a free society while China is not.

There are an increasing number of long-term China residents moving to Taiwan because they can’t take China anymore but don’t want to leave Asia. In my experience, they love Taiwan.[/quote]

According to your figures, it sounds like Taiwan is better in all categories except economics and career prospects. Actually, I think you’re the first person to bring up health care, which is just abysmal on the mainland. When you are out of your twenties and have kids, chancing your healthcare to mainland witchdoctors looks less and less attractive.
Thanks for the feedback.

35

I’ve recently had to make use of the public hospitals in Shanghai - all three of the doctors were fluent in English, professional, and since you are given a number the other patients wait outside the doctor’s room.

I was accurately diagnosed, and given the correct medication. Same as Taiwan when I had a cyst in a scary place.

Shanghai is NOT multicultural at all, unless you’re in an expat hood.

And I do get some nasty stares on the subway (guys that look eerily like the Taipei MRT Twat, and I’m usually by myself).

Shanghai’s not perfect by any means, and it’s getting bitterly cold now, but it offers me more than Taichung could at this stage of my life (apples and pears).

36

Taiwan’s mandatory national health insurance is an incredibly good deal. I suspect that your premiums for your whole family will be far less than they are in the US.

I think the level of care is good for routine care. I’ve had eye surgery and was treated for a fracture. The care was fast, good, very cheap, and effective.

I’m not so sure about major illnesses or emergencies. Also, Taiwan’s health care doesn’t come with all the frills you get in the States. You will have about a minute with your doctor on an average visit. Taipei especially has many well trained doctors and you can see a specialist basically any time.

37

I mentioned it on page 1. A little about my experience, if it’s useful to you, and as I said before, it may be different to someone in another part of China (I’m in Ningbo, which is third tier (is that correct?) but a lot nicer, less polluted and more prosperous than many third tiers. I’ve had two concussions, a broken arm and one emergency wipeout (heart skipped some beats). I am still alive and received good care. However, this is partly because I’m able to advocate for myself because I speak Chinese, and because I wasn’t unconscious and could get myself to the hospital. Ambulances – forget about it. You need to be able to scoop yourself into a taxi. For that reason, I do worry about being in a car accident here in China, and not getting to the ER quickly enough.

The care I got for my broken arm was good. As in Taiwan, the docs are generally great and very humble and committed (Mine all gave me their weixin details so I could ask questions!). The tough part is negotiating the chaotic hospital. It’s hard to find the right place to register, etc, in both China and Taiwan. The key difference in China is that if you have foreigner’s private insurance you will have someone assigned to you to deal with it all, which you won’t if you have Taiwanese NHI. It can be an added stress if you aren’t used to it and aren’t OK at the language.

Good health insurance in China is expensive if your company isn’t paying whereas you get fair basic care from your NHI contributions in Taiwan, although you’ll still have to pay for stuff such as cervical screening and things are limited if you need extensive care following an accident, for example. The expensive private places in Shanghai are superior to what I can access in Taipei, HOWEVER, that’s no use to me in an emergency because I’m two hours away from Shanghai. In an emergency, I’d opt to be in Taipei, for stuff that can wait, Shanghai. If you have foreigner’s health insurance, there’s nothing to stop you from travelling to Shanghai or your home country or even a third place such as Bangkok, where they do stuff such as gynaecology or physiotherapy far better than in Taiwan or smaller towns in China.

I am child-free, but I don’t know if I would chance it in China if I had children. Having said that, my friend’s disabled kid was born in China and his care has been excellent and he chooses to stay. If I had a kid, I’m not sure I would chance a second tier city ER. If you’re young and relatively healthy, you’ll be fine in China.

What is good about Taipei’s healthcare is that there are loads of small clinics everywhere, so if you have something small and need anti-biotics, you can pop in somewhere without a day trip to a giant hospital. That’s a pain where I live in China. Taiwan can be really crappy, though, because they do this thing where they give you three days’ worth of anti-biotics only rather than a full course, because they want you to go back and pay again. They also horribly over-prescribe useless meds in Taiwan, which hasn’t been my experience in China. Both places have a strange attitude to pain relief and are very unwilling to give pain pills. In both countries I’ve been offered addictive benzodiapines to deal with pain, rather than painkillers, which is something to be aware of if you need surgery.

Bass Babelas,wtf happened this week? It’s freezing!

So again, pros and cons in both places, from someone who has been an accident-prone, physical wreck in both countries. :laughing:

38

Cold front rolling through - had to upgrade my wardrobe quickly.

Visited Ningbo once. And once only, to visit a friend and his wife. Place and people gave me the chills, perhaps you’ve had better experiences. I recall it was still pretty nippy when I visited after Spring Festival 2013.

From Taichung to Xiamen to Shanghai - definitely getting sucked into the vortex.

39

Another difference is the trains. China has a good train network but it’s a bit of a scrum trying to get into train stations and getting tickets. Their high speed rail isn’t a patch on Taiwans, which fees real VIP compared to China’s. You have to watch your stuff in China and the food options are awful in the train stations and airports. I feckin hate the food in those places. Taiwans airports and train stations are really pretty nice these days , mostly.
Oh yeah China’s money smells bad too lol. You feel dirty handling it :slight_smile:.

As for the comment on benzos, they are over prescribed for older people in Taiwan mainly to ‘help them sleep’ seemingly. Benzos are extremely addictive. Massive problem in the US.

Final comment, China has a ubiquitous security presence that I find a bit intimidating. That’s the idea I guess.

40

I prefer Taiwan in nearly every other way. Apart from:

  1. Taiwan is a career deadend.
  2. Chinese companies seem to be moving in the right direction in terms of benefits, welfare, office culture etc.
  3. Chinese people want to take on the world. Its infectious and pushes you on. Taiwanese barely has a pulse and so many people seem to have given up here. Just getting through the day. If you are ambitious, this can start to get to you in the end.